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@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
corrections: -Netanyahu was born in Israel -Chiquita is a banana company, not soda lol
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Chiquita AKA United Fruit. Guess they thought they’d have less controversy under their new name LoL
@galtoren7073Ай бұрын
One more correction btw - Israel has been building settlements in the West Bank where we do have military control but it’s not Gaza. Gaza has not yet been repopulated by Israelis, but a lot of people are dreaming of it
@beatricedalpe7061Ай бұрын
Netanyahu grew up in philadelphia also
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
@@beatricedalpe7061 Yes but he was born in Jerusalem. I’m about 2 and a half hours or so west of Philly and I actually used to work with someone who went to High School with Bibi actually. Cheltenham High School Class of 1967. He said that Netanyahu was just as intolerant and serious then as he is now
@DirtmopAZАй бұрын
@@beatricedalpe7061did he spend most of his days on the playground?
@schmidtcsАй бұрын
The circular reasoning of “we killed their loved ones and then they fought back so we are justified in killing their loved ones because they are violent.”
@leavecowsaloneАй бұрын
Tanner is so articulate. He’s exacting and precise about the words he chooses to illustrate ideas and it is helpful for an never-mo, like myself, to understand how doctrine has been rationalized and justified over history. It’s a useful understanding to have bc we can see how it shows up in contemporary life and politic.
@ryanjosephlockАй бұрын
"a lack of imagination" is exactly how I've pushed back on people who support mass death as a solution to cultural and political problems. Interesting to hear it here as well.
@MCKevin289Ай бұрын
Constantine not Charlemagne was the Roman emperor who converted to Christianity. Charlemagne is considered to be the father of Germany and France.
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
@@MCKevin289 doh! thank you!!
@SuzanneyheartsАй бұрын
56:55 lol you guys seem to be forgetting that Chiquita is the company responsible for the term ‘Banana Republic’. Would love a deep dive on South/Central American neoliberalism from the Mormon and missionary goals perspective.
@SuzanneyheartsАй бұрын
I highly recommend the book The Confessions of an Economic Hitman! It’s a gripping exposure to the grit behind neoliberalism and American colonialism
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
yep, brain fart moment lol
@SuzanneyheartsАй бұрын
I NEED to read Braiding Sweekgrass next! My mentor gave it to me after a brutal electoral loss we had, and I know she’s a wise human!
@emmavokeyАй бұрын
Yesss, I love hearing people shout out braiding sweetgrass!! Robin Wall Kimmerer’s sister was my professor in university and is now a treasured mentor ❤ This author deserves all the hype.
@avoinwonderlandАй бұрын
7:23 only this far in, but just wanna say thank you for mentioning how the USA is the biggest propaganda producer. I'd even say Canada is a close 2nd (as someone who lives there).
@AelffwynnАй бұрын
Yep. Even Hitler specifically said that Germany should take notes from the USA on how to make the best propaganda. 😵💫
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
@@AelffwynnSource? I looked this up and can’t find it anywhere
@AelffwynnАй бұрын
@@coldwar45 Mein Kampf
@AelffwynnАй бұрын
@@coldwar45 specifically Chapter 6, i believe. He reviewed the use of propaganda during the first world war.
@mikailahamilton5735Ай бұрын
Braiding Sweetgrass is included as an audiobook in Spotify now! I was able to listen to it there. It was so good!!
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
YAY
@galtoren7073Ай бұрын
Hi friends! Great video, and just wanted to say that I'm Jewish Israeli (pro-Palestinian though) and would love to chat about the topic from the actual Israeli perspective if you'd like more info
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
This would probably be a good discussion if they’re willing just to get the perspective of someone who’s there and living it especially since they said they have limited knowledge of the actual politics over there. I hope you’ve been out on the streets in Democracy Square with the hostage families protesting these last couple days and weeks :-)
@galtoren7073Ай бұрын
@@coldwar45 I’ve been protesting since 2011 lol 😫😫 Netanyahu is the worse and our people are becoming more and more extremist and I hate it
@amandamarinovich6164Ай бұрын
Edit: I'm talking about the ways in which language is always imprecise and influences the way we think, creates shortcuts and leaves out nuance. Of course I know that not all Jewish people are lighter than all Palestinian people. But for most people in the west, a platonic ideal Isreali is going to feel more similar to themselves relative to a platonic ideal Palestinian. That colorism affects our policymakers' decisions whether we like it or not, whether they know it or not. As for post-holocaust guilt - I did an exchange in Germany in high school only a few months after 9/11. We talked a lot about the shame they felt surrounding WWII. Then in the same breath they would complain about the Turkish immigration, clearly not seeing the irony. It's so easy to focus on the details (6 mil Jews) and miss the big picture (we're all susceptible to us vs them biases and propaganda). I think in a lot of ways we think we learned from history but we really didn't. I'm curious what you think about something: so, Semitic refers to a huge lineage of languages and the people who speak them, including Hebrew and Arabic. However, antisemitism is used as attitudes and behaviors specifically against Jewish people. I think there are multiple factors- on the one hand we have the post-holocaust guilt, on the other hand we have colorism and the preference to protect people who are lighter. It enrages me that our congress passed an antisemitism bill in a matter of days to suppress pro- Palestinian sentiment, but no one recognizes that Palestinians ARE SEMITIC 🤦♀️ I'm curious if you think this is accurate, but also how much the holocaust plays into other countries allowing Netanyahu to get away with anything he wants?
@galtoren7073Ай бұрын
@@amandamarinovich6164 You are spot on! Yes, antisemitism normally ignores Arabic speaking people, and I also think it’s because Jewish people got most of the hate throughout the years plus holocaust obviously. And Netanyahu does use the Holocaust, but he’s just tapping into the common Israeli psyche. The Holocaust is one of the key reasons Israel was founded, so it’s important to keep pumping the victim mentality today too, to justify why we’re here. Most Israelis will align with that and forget we’re doing the prosecution now. Some people say it’s also why Israel maintains the historic status quo with the Orthodox Jewish population, to bolster our reasons for having a Jewish country
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
@@amandamarinovich6164Also The term anti-Semitism was not invented by the Jews but by anti-Semitic Germans in the 1870s
@brooklynjemmett211117 күн бұрын
Nothing like pregaming church with my parents with some Zelf On the Shelf
@cloverplayssnakegameАй бұрын
President Nelson saying that gathering Israel is the most important thing we should be doing feels so much more terrifying now that I’m away from the church. The church and its 100bilion dollars is unable to recognize this genocide. They are built from the same key components.
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
The Church also both sided the Russia Ukraine war in their statement about that too, they don’t exactly have the best takes when it comes to foreign policy either surprise
@roziepymm1952Ай бұрын
That 100B is also invested in weapons manufacturers that are supplying the tools of destruction and killing. The Mormon church is complicit in this genocide. Tell every Mormon you know: STOP PAYING TITHING TIL THE CHURCH DIVESTS FROM WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS
@khawlahfelemban9659Ай бұрын
Just leaving a comment due to the number of commentors challenging some details of a very open long conversation. I want to say i appreciate you talk that sounded to me like a genuine concern about the use of religious and ethno nationalist talking points that are used to excuse current day conquests. As alway, these discussions are never black and white. And i appreciate you adding to its depth by talking about it from your perspective and personal experience of watching history repeat itself.
@lunalimi9798Ай бұрын
Thank you, your perspectives never fail to open up my mind.
@Soilfood365Ай бұрын
I want to comment for the sake of the algorithm, but on this subject, I really feel that I cannot safely contribute without saying something that will not have all the context I want to keep in. So just to say that I appreciated (enjoyed seems a bit light for the subject, but I felt I learned some context, and did enjoy the less directly death-y tangents) this video, I think it is entirely appropriate that this subject takes an hour and half to talk about, even without getting all the way into the weeds, and if you aren't aware of Some More News, I really appreciated (again... enjoyed is a bit much on this subject) their video-essay on all the terrible justifications used in the current word-I'm-not-sure-KZfaq-won't-delete-my-comment-for-but-uneven-conflict. So, basically, thanks, recommendation if you haven't watched or listened to that video-essay, and for the algorithm.
@AJoyToGrowАй бұрын
Thank you, thank you for this conversation!! I’ve been thinking how ripe the ex-Mormon/ex-cult space is for this particular subject. High control religions have a direct connection to these other institutions of control (colonialism, capitalism, anti-black racism, etc.) so it seemed a little hypocritical not to at least discuss the genocide of Palestinians and their land. I appreciate it so much!
@shelleys-dollys7092Ай бұрын
I’m so glad your speaking up! 🎉thank you!
@yellotentАй бұрын
yeeessssss thank you so much for speaking to this!!!!!!!!!! Lol haven't even watched yet, stoked stoked stoked
@lottajarvi2907Ай бұрын
Thank you for making this video! I’ve started reading Braiding sweetgrass for your recommendation ❤
@whenimonmymoon6822Ай бұрын
Dan reacting to the cat vocalizing and then just petting at the end 😂 love it.
@user-wq6kb8qx5xАй бұрын
This episode is one of the best. Tanner connected a lot of dots for me and Sam dropped some wisdom. I deeply appreciate you both. I believe the world can change for the better and the work you do is part of creating a better future
@merbishАй бұрын
Guys. I have a mind blowing correction to offer. Netanyahu is from Philadelphia. As in Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA.
@jansenncuber8009Ай бұрын
This is the revelation Joe thought he had with Adam ondi ahman
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
Source?
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
He’s not from there per se he was born in Jerusalem but he grew up there some and graduated from Cheltenham High School in 1967. Same school as Reggie Jackson. I actually know someone who went to High School with Netanyahu and graduated with him and said he was as serious and ungracious as he is now.
@froggie9871Ай бұрын
Philadelphia is wild. (I’m from Philadelphia.)
@ryantaylor6470Ай бұрын
Great video!
@EmmzillaАй бұрын
Could you do more on deconstructing the state? I really enjoy how insightful you are and how helpful your background is to these conversations!
@beatricedalpe7061Ай бұрын
50:01 the saddest part is that it’s not a lack of hope for humanity that makes them believe that Palestinian civilians and Palestinian children are all (future) terrorists, but lacking to even see the humanity in others you see as your enemy. dehumanizing people has always been a popular way to justify to yourself/to others your genocidal believes.
@KristinaStarlight98Ай бұрын
I’m trying to keep it together while watching this. I just want to say thank you so much. 💛 I really appreciate you guys. I’ve been trying to find ExMormon influencers who agree that there is a genocide happening against the Palestinians. I’m PIMO (Physically In mentally out of the church.) (I’m not able to officially leave the church yet.) I am still unable to leave because, I am chronically ill, mentally ill, also Autistic & have Adhd, unable to work, have to live off of social security, while living with my all true believing Mormon family.) (One of my parents also works for the church leaders directly.) (2 of my siblings also work for the church as as well.) (I will tell them I am leaving once I am somehow able.) I found out the truth about Mormonism in 2022. I now have found out everything possible not only about the church, but also about this genocide. Knowing the truth and not being able to say what I truly feel with the people around me has made me beyond mentally & physically exhausted. (& I’m already exhausted because I’m chronically ill.) So I truly mean it when I say that both of you speaking up about this, has genuinely helped me feel less alone. 💛
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
@christinabellini537Ай бұрын
Omg I see you. I relate so hard. Hugs 🫂💙
@jessyocom2910Ай бұрын
TYSM for this video ❤
@forest_greenАй бұрын
Zionism is just sparkling manifest destiny. Sincerely, an Indigenous person born in occupied Coast Salish territory
@AuthorDiannaGunnАй бұрын
Braiding Sweetgrass is BRILLIANT. A much harder book that faces similar topics & still manages to be empowering is Legacy: Trauma, Story and Indigenous Healing by Suzanne Methot. Definitely have something to cuddle handy but please give it a read!
@bekahgwen4984Ай бұрын
I appreciate the two of you having this long and thoughtful conversation and for showing how this "issue" is not different or unique or deserving of a completely different standard that we accept for everything else. #freepalestine
@christinabellini537Ай бұрын
Ugh, I tried to “like” Romney too, because your guys’ video was so great, and because my super regressive MAGA father dislikes him so I figured he was doing something right 🙃 but then I found out that Romney is in deep deep cahoots with the troubled teen industry (basically helped found it) so that reaaally slammed my breaks.
@tonelove666Ай бұрын
I love you guys🐳🌈🌸
@mastermachetier5594Ай бұрын
Immigrant here from Latin American to the US and looking at NYC or cities like London it’s amazing true feats of engineering and civilization …. Built off the back of imperialism and colonization, exported wealth and resources .
@gbassman5341Ай бұрын
I have never looked forward to a July 4th in my life before, but I soooo am this year! Happy liberation from the Tories Day to you Brits! Labour is being projected to win anywhere from 400-460ish seats of the 650 total seats in the House of Commons. I wish Labour wasn't so TERFy, but it's still miles better than the Tories. Speaking of the Tories, there's a very small chance they might not even be the official opposition, depending on how many seats they lose! There's a small chance the centrist LibDems (who are actually better than Labour on trans people and the EU) might end up w/ more seats than the stupid Tories! (No, I'm not British; just very into politics)
@MoundfreekАй бұрын
My sister has recommended Braiding Sweetgrass for years. Thanks for the nudge :)
@simplybet8104Ай бұрын
Great video
@joeyrufo21 күн бұрын
44:35 I think astrology sucks because everyone needs to create their own religion! They have to tie their meanings to FACTS! But I'm not saying anything about astrology in my personal life! Too much to say about the American exceptionalism delusion!
@Maryfs1Ай бұрын
You tell better stories ❤
@joeyrufo21 күн бұрын
40:37 oh! The Bible tells me A LOT about the SUBCONSCIOUS of the people who wrote it!!! 💀💀💀💀💀
@amypieterse4127Ай бұрын
Yay, another Zelph video.
@FudgeYeahAmericaАй бұрын
The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas And The Dawn of Everything Are two more things to read
@cinnamongirl433Ай бұрын
omg I love that you listen to binchtopia!!
@generobbins8714Ай бұрын
How many times is saying “literally” necessary?
@joshbowdish9851Ай бұрын
fuck yall are eloquent
@user-hl9hl9ei1rАй бұрын
I appreciate your good intentions, but you kind of spoiled it. I didnt expect much, but the title refers to a some very interesting connections between “mormonism, zionism and white supremecy”. But as Samantha said - you guys are not well informed on the palestinian-israeli conflict. It really shows.. as to mormonism&zionism -you can look into orson hyde and byu jerusalem - stick to your niche… It is ok that you are not educated on the conflict, but before standing on the podium and “baring your testimony” on opinions that make you feel good, you should do your reaserch. Wikipedia could save embarressement on netanyahu not been born in israel, which was corrected in the comments (his father imigrated from poland when the father was 10. No “financial investment firms” where involved). This is Not a great example of “settler collonialism” - but of basing opinions on poor factual foundations. The following claim at 31:30 is blatently false - and while not being sure of your claim, you settle on it as being factual. No settlements are being built on “newly genocided land” in gaza. Btw, you can not “genocide” a land. What you are alleging is called “ethnic clensing”. As to the genocide clame: no, israel is not committing genocide. Don’t believe me. Belive the international criminal court who rulled on the subject. Yes, what is happening in gaza is horrific, and Must end. The carnage is caused by carelessness and reclessnes, but also due to battlefield conditions created by hamas. The history of jews in palestine is long and complicated. They where never under “roman colloniasation” -they where under imperial rule, and the distinction is important. As imperialism continued in palestine untill 1948. Roman, byzantine, arab, mongolian, crusader ottoman and brittish. The use of the “collonialism” prism is incorrect for the middle east. When zionism began, palestine was under the rule of the ottoman empire. One cannot colonize an empire, as one cannot colonize the usa. During this time the “indigenous” jews lived in the cities and not agrarian communities. European jews who “collonised” palestine setteled on lands bought from their owners - mostly in the uninhabitable lowlands infested my malaria. This continued under british rule untill 1948, when the british left behind a civil war between jews and palestinians. When the war ended, lines where drawn on maps between israel, lebanon, syria, jordan and egypt. What is now known as “palestine” was concoured and occupied by egypt and jordan. A lot of people where displaced, mostly palestinians - yet israel became a mixed nation - and no jews survived when their settlements were conquored. These are the internationaly undisputed “1949 ceace fire boarders” accepted for the 2 state solution. After the war israel was floded by jewish refugees (from an actaul genocide). Yes, they setteled on palestinian lands. That was the way of the world back then. In 1967 esscalation lead to war, and israel coqoured what is now expected to become the palestinian state, including gaza. These lands where settled by israelis, which is considered by most countries as a war crime. Gaza was settled but all israeli settlments in the gaza strip where dismantled when the israeli occupation of gaza ended in 2005 (the occupation ended, yet israel kept a choke on gaza, surrounding it from three sides. The forth side is controlled by egypt). Now is the time to mention - israel is not exterminating and is not at war with palestine or the palestinian people. In 2007 HAMAS took control of the gaza strip by force. After winning a majority in parlament in 2006, they erradicated the opposition by bloodsheed and terror, becoming the gazan dictatorship. Israel hendeled it wrong since then. I cannot justify the policies of israel towards gaza in the following years, most of them under Benjamin Netanyahu. Do you know who Yihia Sinwar is? He is the head of HAMASin gaza. The dictator. A fundementalist religious zealot. A jihadist with actual aspirations for genocide. He rose throgh the ranks as an enforcer, personally murdering suspected spies and homosexuals within the Hamas, with his own hands. Oh tanner, you would be executed within days if you where a palestinian in gaza. Keep that in mind. You can see Hamas pretty much as ISIS. The name HAMAS means “the islamic resistance”. Not freeing palestine - islamic jihad. Hamas rose and raised Benjamin Netanyahu in the 90’s - bombing busses in israel in order to sabotage the peace process between israel and palestine leading toa two state solution. Israel became disillusioned about peace and was consumed by hate and nationalism, and netanyahu used devide and conqour between FATAH ruled west bank and HAMAS rulled gaza to sabatoge a palestinian state. Even a year ago, few israelis could contemplate a peacefull solution, while palestinians in gaza grew desperate and angryunder Hamas rule and israeli sanctions. In the past few years a peace treaty was cooking between israel and saudi arabia. Hamas would not have this. Sabotaging peace between israel and saudi arabia is considered a major factor in Hamas’s choice of date for Yihia Sinwar’s masterplan - invading israel, conquoring land, and exterminating the jews. At dawn of october 7th, on a jewish holiday, thousands of HAMAS warriors crossed the border, disabled idf defences and proceeded to invade the nearby israeli towns, jewish and arab, and massacre defenceless citizens in their homes. Men, woman, childeren and the elderly were brutally murderd. Shot, decapitated, burnt, raped and posted on social media. People where forced at gunpoint to unlock their phones and access facebook so their killers could brocast their killing live to all their contacts. Or to brodcast live a teenager forced to go door to door, knocking, begging his neighbours to open, only for them to be murdered. Than came the civilian masses to loot the towns. In gaza, people celebrated in the streets. Hundreds of people where taken hostage back to gaza. Among them Kfir Bibas - a baby, who had lived free for 262 days. He has been a prisoner for 265 days, at the time of writing. Towns were decimated, entire families murdered. Wholesale rape and murder. The following day israel was attacked from lebanon, syria, iraq, iran and yemen. Over 100,000 israelis are now refugees as well, as entire regions of israel are still under daily bombardment, mostly from lebanon. My town was attacked by drones from iraq just two nights ago. Israel did not decide to go colonising and building high rises on new land. We literally are fighting for our lives. We did not “enter a refugee campin disguise just to massacre” - you are referring to a hostage release operation that escalated. Hostages who were been prisoners of a doctor, and a journalist, reporting live from gaza. This is a brutal neighborhood, and war is allways barbaric. Hamas built expansive military infrastructure at he expence of their own people, in and under their homes, heavily leaning on schools and hospitals for their tunnes, rocket launchers, factoris and bunkers. They have not worn uniforms since october 7th, hiding among civilians, not using them as human sheilds but as human sacrifices. Hamas is well stocked with shelter, food, fuel and ammunition for their army, while leaving the civilians at israels mercy. Israel is careless and recless with palestinian lifes, and is irresponsible with hamanitarian issues and seems to have no plan for restoring peace and wealfare in gaza when the war ends. Furthermore, netanyahu seems to be making decisions based on political survival. The situation is complicated. There are many evils and countless tragedies that must end yesterday. Apllying simple black and white narratives to complex issues will not help anyone understand better, and will not help bring forth peace. I focused more on the israelli narrative here, but i am well aware of the many injustices inflicted upon the palestinian people by zionism. Im not sure you are.. and yes, many israelis, evan in the government are “jewish supremacists” and do fantasise about genocide and real estate. They are a major problem. But i think uninformed conversastion just falls back on our own biases, and may even make things worse.. I don’t expect anyone to care much (or read this mormon-stories-length reply), but if anyone would like and honest discussion - here i am
@molls127Ай бұрын
!!!!!!!!!!
@jabreakitjubawtit4748Ай бұрын
I care about what you said, it’s nice to see people with common sense to say that Israel isn’t committing genocide
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Thanks for this comment. I lean toward the Palestinian side myself for a variety of reasons and I hate the Israeli government but it’s clear that the Middle East conflict is not their strong suit and their surface level knowledge shows this. I will say this though, your government fell right into the trap Hamas set for them. But then no one said the Israeli government is run by smart people.
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Also it’s important to note that a lot of the genocide argument comes from not the war itself but the stopping and slowing of aid bound for Gaza. To such a level that even Zionists like Cindy McCain has said that famine is underway in Gaza. There are tons of settlers and other Israeli thugs that are stopping the flow of the aid and the IDF and Israeli police do little to nothing to stop them when they easily can (look at how they disperse the anti government riots). It’s things like that that swayed the founder of Humans Rights Watch, himself a Holocaust survivor, to come around and agree with the genocide claim when he initially rejected it
@randomname4726Ай бұрын
Bill Gates ex wife, Melina is awsome. I recently saw Elon Musk complaining about her giving away too much money.
@jrj97Ай бұрын
I like you guys, and I don’t like Netanyahu or the Israeli gov or military+settler violence at all, but your understanding of Jewish and Israeli history is poor and reductive. It wasn’t just a handful of ‘agrarian communities’. I personally know Jews whose families have been in Jerusalem for hundreds of years at least. And the rest weren’t just ‘investors and military’ - the vast majority were fleeing persecution in various other lands, mostly North Africa and Middle East, but yes, also Europe. Refugees, stateless, many victims of violence, pogroms and genocide in those places. Whether or not Zionism as an idea was originally conceived as a framework born out of European nationalisms by a handful of ideologues (in the dire and desperate context of a Europe increasingly hostile to the very idea of Jews even remaining alive) says nothing whatsoever about the actual reality of how most Jews came to be there in that land today - which was certainly not as privileged white settlers. It just feels unfair and disingenuous to act like it’s anything like the same as ‘white colonialism’, even if it’s fashionable to say so, when so many Israelis have recent family histories of fleeing horrors in so many places. You can rightly be concerned about current events but this kind of rewriting of modern Jewish history is painful to hear you repeat.
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Yeah the pro-Palestine side doesn't have much of an understanding of the history and as a result only see it one sided especially when it comes to the whole "white colonialism" thing which this isn't. That said Zionism definitely comes out of Europe and the age of nationalisms. Many of the founding ideologues of Zionism came out of Europe and took a lot of their cues from the European nationalisms that were starting at a similar time.
@angrytrianglesАй бұрын
I think they're confusing the indigenous Jewish population with the original early 20th c kibbutzim, which were quite literally a handful of agrarian communities. I don't know if anyone denies that there has been a Jewish minority living in that area for centuries. It's a pretty common piece of messaging I see repeated in pro-Palestinian circles and by Palestinians themselves, that Jews were also in that region before Palestine was even Palestine and that nobody was especially weird about it. Notably this was pre Sykes-Picot, which did a lot to reframe European immigration from an influx of refugees escaping violent persecution into a part of a larger and explicitly colonialist political project. Unfortunately it isn't the refugees who defined the nature of Zionism, but the people in power who had the influence and resources to shape the movement into what it is.
@caecandyАй бұрын
They came to the land fleeing prosecution and proceeded to ethnically cleanse it during the Nakba in order to create a Jewish State. I have a perfectly fine understanding of history. It's not acceptable to steal people's homes at gunpoint in order for Europe to avoid facing their own issues with Antisemitism. Israel fundamentally has no right to exist. Do refugees and victims of violence have the right to show up at your home and steal it at gunpoint? I have plenty of sympathy for the Jewish people, but Zionism is morally despicable solution.
@liv-bv3plАй бұрын
Thank you for sharing this! I think a lot of this video is productive, but this distinction is super important. I had a hard time finishing the video after they got to this portion.
@bl3hbl3hbl3hАй бұрын
I feel like the repeated suggestions that Israeli Jews are analogous to American settlers are deeply misleading. Jews are indigenous to the region. Whatever the historicity of King David and Solomon, Jews certainly lived there. I honestly don’t understand how Christianity is described as a religious response to Roman colonialism in the same video that Jewish ties to the land are denied. Christianity emerged from a colonized Jewish state. While I do believe that the settler colonial paradigm in reference to Israel can be accurate (though it gets strained when discussing whiteness), it is not really accurate in the way you’ve described it here.
@caecandyАй бұрын
Nobody denies that there were Jewish people living on the land pre-1948. But the arguments about historic Jewish connection to the land are fundamentally missing the point. Which is that the vast majority of the land currently controlled by Israel is not historic, it's due to Ethnic Cleansing.
@bl3hbl3hbl3hАй бұрын
@@caecandy I don’t understand how discussing Jewish indigeneity misses the point. It is a necessary part of any understanding of Israel/Palestine. I don’t deny that Israel was formed at least partially through ethnic cleansing. This is why I said that the settler colonial paradigm can be accurate. But talking about the Jews immigrating to Mandatory Palestine as if they were primarily colonial settlers (and not refugees fleeing to their ancestral homeland) is, like I said before, misleading. And to be clear, I never said that Jewish control of the land was widely historically continuous. It was not. I don’t think it matters. Jewish indigeneity is what affects the justice of the calls for partition, which is why I mentioned it. (Reading your other comments on this video, I think that is what you’re misunderstanding. Jewish indigeneity and then later national self-determination is what forms Israel’s supposed “right to exist.” It is not violence in the diaspora which does-it’s the same principles which undergird other nation-states. Whether or not Israel should exist regardless of this right is a different question.)
@caecandyАй бұрын
@@bl3hbl3hbl3h You can say 'fleeing to their ancestral homeland', but these weren't people going to unoccupied land. It was, as you said, an act of ethnic cleansing. Jewish indigeneity is irrelevant if we refuse that 'right' to literally any other indigenous group. No other group has ever been allowed to ethnically cleanse their 'ancestral homeland' to create a ethnostate.
@bl3hbl3hbl3hАй бұрын
@@caecandy To be clear, I was not discussing the ethnic cleansing which occurred during the Nakba when I mentioned Jewish refugees. The refugees coming to live in Mandatory Palestine were not equivalent to the Zionist military forces who ethnically cleansed native Palestinians in 1947/1948. The point you’re making is exactly why I said in my previous comment that whether or not Israel should exist is a separate question from whether or not Jews have a right to self-determination in the region (which I abstractly-and confusingly, sorry-referred to as Israel’s “right to exist,” given that we refer to ourselves occasionally as the people of Israel). So again, to be clear, I feel similarly to you about Israel’s actual existence even if I am sympathetic to the idea of Zionism. But truthfully, what you’re saying about ethnostates is more or less how states have always functioned historically. Israel is not an exception. How different is the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 from modern-day ethnic cleansing? Wasn’t England then an ethnostate based on people claiming indigeneity and ethnically cleansing those who did not fit their vision of a “nation”? This is a problem with the nation-state model itself. No need for scare quotes around “ancestral homeland.” The location really is the Jewish ancestral homeland and has been proven to be so through extensive historical, linguistic, and archaeological evidence.
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
@@bl3hbl3hbl3hIt is the Jewish ancestral homeland, but then how can someone who has let’s say converts to Judaism, do they have more right to that land as someone who has no connection to it besides the fact that they converted then someone whose family may have lived there for generations (Arab or Jewish). It’s hardly that persons “ancestral homeland” is it? Thats something that never made sense to me
@raylawler13Ай бұрын
I have somehow, without trying, avoided most real information about this war. I feel conflicted about if I should feel good or bad about that. I've seen a video from Carah about it, but most of what I've seen is coming from Sam Harris, who is one saying that there is actually Palestinian propaganda that's spreading a lot, including in reports of the number of people who have died. I'm curious to watch this since I've felt, even as a pretty liberal person, somewhat in favor of Israel, though not completely. Admittedly, this is mostly based on Sam Harris' views, since I haven't had a lot of exposure to much else. I'll be watching with an open mind. I know most around me support Palestine and I'm just assuming they've seen a lot that I haven't.
@oooohokayАй бұрын
The propaganda machine is strong and recognizing that you may be in it is the only step you really need to navigate your way out of it. Expose yourself to different sources until you can form a bigger picture for yourself. Content creators like Bad empanada and hasan Abi, as well as interviews with Jewish anti Zionists on KZfaq have blown my mind open as a Jewish person who was raised with Zionist ideology. You are never done with learning. Never assume you have everything figured out and be open to admitting you were wrong.
@azukib2230Ай бұрын
It’s not that hard to do some basic research on the historical timeline on the relationship between Israel and Palestine. It’ll take you less than an hour and I really recommend doing it. Because no amount of influencers yapping will give you true understanding of the situation. Being open minded without actively seeking to learn and think critically is just asking for brainwashing
@azukib2230Ай бұрын
Why would you feel good about that? Just go do your own research. Literally would take you less than 2 hours.
@raylawler13Ай бұрын
@@azukib2230 Because I may not be able to deal with the depression that would come from being more informed about it right now. Similar to how I've realized being more aware about news around Trump just makes my life worse.
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Both Sam Harris and Carah have deep biases. The truth lies in the middle. If you’re interested avoid them and search out the experts on the topic on both sides
@loni8078Ай бұрын
KZfaq is definitely gonna shadow ban this one.
@wes2176Ай бұрын
Is this a gay and lesbian thing?
@ZelphOntheShelfАй бұрын
??
@jabreakitjubawtit4748Ай бұрын
8:46 she admitted she knows very little about Israeli politics yet she’s talking about Israel and the war like shes an expert, typical hamasnic behavior
@molls127Ай бұрын
ok bye! learn what genocide means and maybe i will come back. this is just wrong
@jabreakitjubawtit4748Ай бұрын
Incredibly dangerous and antisemitic misinformation to be spreading
@molls127Ай бұрын
@@jabreakitjubawtit4748 are you saying what i said is antisemitic or agreeing with me because i am jewish lmao
@coldwar45Ай бұрын
Look up the statement by the co founder of Human Rights Watch (who is himself a Holocaust survivor. I’m pretty sure he knows what genocide is) as to why he came around on the genocide claim. Israel has allowed a full famine to erupt in Gaza by slowing and stopping aid.
@jabreakitjubawtit4748Ай бұрын
@@molls127oh now I know what your talking about, I made that comment referencing the comments they made in the video, not your comment