Thank you and couldn’t agree more!

Agreed

Chances are, if you had endless money to go vault picking, you'd prob walk away with one line from one brand crash, a different ride,different hi hats. Variety is best

@@NintenDub you know it’s funny that you said that because I could play any cymbal I want today, but I’m finding how much I love playing the cymbals I couldn’t afford as a kid today! Also, I think the “unique sound” is lost in the thousands of cymbals being produced by so many cymbal makers today! I think we are trying even harder to find “that sound” and in the process making it harder to actually find that sound. But I guess you will know the sound when you hear it! It’s an individual thing for each of us and having more options makes it harder to identify in my humble option.

Nobody, including the drummer can tell the difference in sound.

Old A's were almost all quite thin, almost uniformly good, also bright enough for pop and rock. I had one, played a few fabulous ones too. Old Istanbul K's were very quirky, very individual, but the better ones were pure magic.

Thanks! I’ve got a video this in-depth and nerdy coming out every Friday! Haha

Thanks Ben! Really appreciate it!

Very true!!! This is all super relative and that’s what makes cymbals such an interesting instrument.

Man I even play both roles for myself, I’m that guy getting rid of the cymbal, then the next day I’m the guy saying “dude how could you get rid of that” lol

After recently purchasing a 1940’s 22’’ Transtamp I think my head took over and convince myself it’s the best I ever heard - lol It’s does sound amazing though even after the honeymoon period. I learnt so interesting stuff from this video - thank you.

@@Bigsbeee You bet! Perspective really is such a big part of all this.

@@alexcoleman70 I can relate to THAT!!😂

Thanks for sharing! That’s awesome you had that experience of sorting through a set of Ks like that and finding something you used for years.

Thanks!

It's a fun process!

Thanks for watching!

Yeah! There's nothing wrong with that!

Amazing context to add! From my understanding, the crates of cymbals coming in was from an earlier date, before A Zildjian was producing in the US. I also might be totally mistaken by what Paul was actually saying. Im definitely no historian when it comes to these pieces. My purview is strictly from a manufacturing standpoint. Thank you so much for adding this to the conversation!

Jim, you know your history dude! I could have said it better … and I tried! 🤘🏻😎🙏🏻

Paiste's website states the Traditionals began in 1996, not 1998. Istanbul began around 1980, but from what I've read, the early cymbals were more like modern K's, and they didn't start making cymbals in the old K fashion until the 90's.

Too kind!

That’s amazing! Have you noticed them change over the decades?

@@ReverieDrumCo Not really, if they do, it must be so suttle and have not noticed as I'm around them all the time, 14" hats, 18" ride, 18" china, 2 -17" crashes. heavy and medium (Another 16" crash was replaced in the 80's (no stamp, just black logo) being broken by an over zealous singer giving it a wack while playing a cowbell...lol) All have Avedis Zildjian stamp with turkish logo, all Made in USA, except crashes and china says Made in Canada. I do not know if they are A's or K's.

@@bradhatton3387 Those would be As!

The "canada" ones may be EAK or "early american K". Those are the precursors to Sabian.

@@ReverieDrumCo Great, thanks for the info Tim

He’s a legend!

wow, that's wild. It's sad you don't see those kind of deals come up much anymore.

Yes! Domene supplies most of my blanks!

Hi Lane…even at age 15 or so..(1971)…..I thought most A’Zils sounded bad!..Then,a friend loaned me a thin 602 for a gig…..First time i hit it…..I could not believe it!..THAT was the sound I was looking for!

I agree! I'm not sure I've ever played an old A I would say I loved, but that's also a consequence of the general vibe each has. I don't aim towards the chime-like sounds of older A zildjians (especially not 70s on As) but I do aim towards the good older K Zildjian sounds; ie. dark/warm/complex/trashy

Also the bit about 90% being bad is by far the most controversial thing I said in this video (I got some pretty angry comments on FB). That was pulled directly from multiple sources that had a direct connection with people who had first-hand experience. For instance, Paul Francis learned from Armand that when Avedis Zildjian would import K Zildjians they would root though them and, according to Armand, "Only about 10 out of every 100 were any good". Another great source is Rick Dior's YT video on "old K zildjian cymbals". He's played hundreds and has a similar experience.

@@ReverieDrumCo Got my first A.Zil in around 1968…a used……$12 …12” Splash….iT wasn’t till I got hip to 1930s-50s A’s that I discovered the real great ones…Actually hand hammered….with a lump hammer!

I don't mean start a controversy and was wary of commenting. I've been reading those comments and spoken to older drummers who have said the same thing, if not exactly in a numbers sense. My comments re the Zildjians and others at the company didn't make very good jazz cymbals for a long long time and it could all be hyperbole. For me, almost ANY handmade cymbal I've played is more rewarding once I learn what to do with it and bend it towards my needs. Anyway, it's all in good spirit. There's many sounds and directions. I do LOVE the modern cymbal makers and have been collecting and playing some from just about every one of them!

So happy to hear that! Thanks Stephen!

Matt Bettis is one of the greats! I still remember the ride you gave me of his! I used it for many years and it went to a dear friend of mine. Good to hear from you, John!

Thanks Tim! Really dig your vids on these cymbals. You've got some incredible sounding ones! (as well as that amazing Funch clone)

It can if there are cracks. Usually keyholes just affect how the cymbal leans. As for cleaning, most purists would say to never clean vintage cymbals because you’ll remove the patina which can do wonderful things to the sound. I tend to agree!

That's awesome!

I like to make kits with simple and/or wood finishes. I've loved this kind of drum kit look ever since we started 8 yrs ago. Different strokes I guess!

@@ReverieDrumCo Absolutely. Purely curious.

Thank you John!

ha ha........no, Thank You!!!@@ReverieDrumCo

Yeah, I've modified a few. Some really weird ones that had almost swish-like shapes and others that were beautiful but the customer wanted thinner. They are very interesting to work on!

Agreed!

Paiste’s really are incredible for the type of sound they produce. I’ve got a lot of respect for them as a company. The Giant Beat stuff sounds great.

@@ReverieDrumCo Yeah after commenting I realized I'm a rock guy so sensibilities are going to be different. If you are exploring unlathed cymbals, the Rude 14" hi hats are very versatile sounding, far more polite than anything. The Rude thin crashes also. Anything else from that line is too abrasive even for me.

True!

Totally true. 10 or even 20 yrs age is still very different from 50+ years though.

@@ReverieDrumCo Do you know the bit about Turkish K.Zildjian getting phone cable from the Turkish government ….because they ran out of metal?..They smelted it down,..somehow..and used that to make K’s with!

@@Formula-602 yeah, for the copper! I know the Turks source their copper from all over the place so that doesn’t surprise me at all!

I totally respect that opinion. I’ve only been able to develop my craft by reworking many cymbals (approximately 600+) before I ever made an original/from-scratch creation. While only a fraction of those reworked/modified are of the vintage, pre-1980 variety, I have been able to really learn from those projects. I’ve only reworked vintage ones that customers have sent me and may have sentimental value, but because of the sound, they were usable to that drummer. They thought it was worth it to have me modify it. I definitely respect these vintage cymbals and the craftsmen who made them, but I tend to care more about the sound than I do the value as a historical artifact. I also would be greatly disadvantaged if I refused to work on pre-made cymbals. That pursuit really helped me develop my own “voice” as an independent cymbal-smith. Gotta understand the past to have anything useful to say in the present! Thanks for the comment!

Extremely well put, sir! And then we are no even touching the subject that they were striving for different sounds during different eras due to preferences and musical style. They had the manufactoring technic they had and the tried to create cymbals with the sound that was in demand. It is as easy as that!

That’s very true! I discuss that point in a bunch of my videos. It’s maybe the biggest factor in all this.

A “flea bite” is the name for a dent in the edge of the cymbal from either a drop or something banging into it. Not sure why they call it that! Haha

I always drill them out to fit on any stand.

I just mean the lower profile will give a more versatile sound. Super high profile cymbals have limited spread and a more focused type of sound. That being said they can make for great jazz rides depending on the other specs.

I'll take a look if you want to send a photo! tim@reveriedrums.com

Wow! That’s a find! That doesn’t ever happen these days anymore.

@@ReverieDrumCo Unfortunately Women don't marry to musicians anymore :)

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n66AoJh13bzeiY0.html

You can also find it on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts by searching “The Reverie Podcast”

There’s a few scientific papers I’ve read on the subject. The ones I’ve seen theorize that over the course of hundreds of thousands of years the separation could fully take place. I’ve had multiple people bring up old weaponry (hundreds to upwards of 2 thousand years old) as a way to try and discredit what I’m saying. The big difference here is that cymbal alloy is MUCH thinner than those pieces of weaponry and armor, and they are continually struck/in a state of vibration. Even if it’s an incredibly small change that change will be very noticeable in a really thin piece of metal that’s meant to make a sound as well. It even shows itself in the creation of cymbal blanks. When a blank is anywhere from 0-3 weeks old it is incredibly soft and malleable. If you leave a blank for a year or more it takes about 2x as long to hammer it into shape. The alloy has had time to harden and the metal composition is already starting to change and (in an extremely small way) started to separate.

Yes! That’s true. They would stack them and hit a die with a sledgehammer. They may have done some hand hammering to the bells but Im not sure on that point.

@@ReverieDrumCo probably they hammered the bell after they was shaped.

That’s certainly possible!

@@ReverieDrumCo I have an old K from ca. 1950, and the bell appears to be hammered, though it's very difficult to tell. It's easier to see on the underside than the topside. It could use some modifying - it hums when I lay into it, something I didn't notice for years when I was using sticks with very small tips. The bell is slightly misshapen as well, definitely not K. Zildjian's finest work, lol. Anyway, would it have to be lathed to remove the hum, or could it possibly be done through hammering/re-shaping the bell?

@@jc3drums916 with those cymbals I really don’t recommend hammering just due to the age and brittleness that’s comes as bronze as it gets to be 40* years old. Lathing could take care of it, but it wouldn’t be a guaranteed fix. Hammering to reshape is most of the time the best way to deal with those types of issues. Misshapen bells are very common with old Ks!

Yeah, of all the machine made stuff there's very little that feels inspiring to play.

This is a HUGE point on cymbal sounds. I'm making a video on it now.

Oh yeah! That's a great video series from Memphis Drum Shop.

No, but I definitely need to! That's a great idea!

@@ReverieDrumCo yes! I would love to hear how it all happened for you...I have always wanted a trade like yours and as a drummer, I get so deeply fascinated by what goes into cymbals and how one learns that AND the tools used.

@@mountainhobbit1971 it’s honestly the most addictive thing I’ve done. It’s so inspiring to search for sounds and see what’s possible.

Yeah ,there's a cymbalsmith named Nicky Moon who has found research papers from major physicists who theorize about how long it would take for the copper/tin to fully separate. I'm just referencing the research he's done. He knows more about this stuff than I do and is definitely worth reaching out to!

Yeah, they made a lot of those back in the day!

Check out the metal stamp on top. Do you see “avedis” or “A” next to Zildjian? Or do you see “K”? That’ll be your answer. You can also tell by the bells. As have a taller, more uniform shape. Thats awesome you’ve got those either way!

@@ReverieDrumCo Thanks ...that was too easy- it has Avedis next to Zildjian. So I guess I have Vintage "A's"....appreciate it.

@@davidjperkins1710 Yep! That's it!

Very true!

That can certainly help loosen up the natural patina for cleaning. I use mild heat when applying my patinas. That helps keep things loose and allows the solutions to react to the metal.

@@ReverieDrumCo Thank you sir , I have been doing it a long time but never checked if it was good or bad. I appreciate the knowledge that you empart...

@@ReverieDrumCo How? Through magic? It ain't going to do anything. Water won't do ANYTHING

Keep it secret, keep it safe!

Thanks JC! They can definitely have an "aura" about them. I find the same thing applies to well-made, hand-hammered cymbals (from the indie guys especially)

I totally agree! I have a whole set of cymbals from Jesse Simpson and just bought a 22" from PGB in Montreal yesterday...didn't say I only liked Ks 🤣@@ReverieDrumCo

Hahaha

I wasn't wanting to strip the top patina, so I left it. It was also helping mute some of the wild overtones.

Yeah, those EAK rides are killer.

@@ReverieDrumCo Yep I've got a 22' that's unbelievable !!

It’s not a theory and It’s not at all nonsense. Cymbals are very thin and make sound by the vibrations after being struck. When they hit around 50yrs old the tin and copper have gravitated towards their kind which weakens the alloy (and being struck by drummers often reveals this fact). Old bronze helmets and swords are much thicker and aren’t consistently moved and/or vibrated. The decrease in structural integrity would not be near as apparent in those items.

@@ReverieDrumCo and viktor, I might be able to articulate this a little better than most, given my background in geology. I think the general concept behind the hypothesis that Reverie cites borrows from some ideas about glass, which is a technically an amorphous solid, neither a true solid or liquid, because the atoms in glass do not typically solidify into an organized array (i.e. a crystal). There is debate if glass were to sit for millions of years if it would deform under the influence of gravity of its own accord (old windows with thicker bottoms are erroneously cited as an example of this, which is actually due to a convention of using the thicker side of blown glass in window manufacturing, but I digress...). To the best of my knowledge, I don't think there have been any experimental examples of deformation of glass at surface temperature and pressure. If you google amorphous metals, you'll find a good figure titled "metallurgy for dummies" depicting how alloyed metals can also have heterogeneity in their otherwise orderly molecular crystalline structure. I think the hypothetical concept is that along these zones of molecular misalignment, where atoms are not as tightly held in place, there can be some slight rearrangement of the crystalline structure as copper would tend to rebond with copper and tin with tin. Such movement would require some amount of transition state energy for the rearrangement to transpire, and I suppose the hypothesis is that the kinetic energy of a vibrating cymbal (or simply the heat energy in ambient air -- or for that matter some other chemical mechanism) is sufficient to overcome the required transition state differential. A metallurgist or chemist would need to chime in to qualify this hypothesis feasible, although the "metallurgy" figure suggests that instances of "micro-amorphism" in alloys are generally known by metallurgists to be present, at least along extremely localized, molecular-scale portions of an imperfectly cooled metal alloy. The question regarding cymbals is whether these imperfections are pervasive enough across the bulk mass of a cymbal be be substantive: are there enough of them to make an audible difference? Personally, as a non-metallurgist (so what do I know?), while I concede there may be some amount of "set-up" in a bronze alloy as micro-amorphisms adjust to a lower transition state (maybe), I suspect that molecular sorting along heterogeneities in alloy is minimal compared to the bulk mass of the cymbal and that once a lower energy state is achieved in the heterogeneities, it is unlikely to extrapolate across the rest of the cymbal. That a bronze cymbal left to its own devices would eventually separate into its component elements is simply not going to happen without a considerable amount of energy to break bonds and a process to physically separate the components, even over millions of years held in a tank of a noble gas (as oxidation would rust it out before separation could occur in ambient air). For example, we mine metal ores that have been sitting in place for millions of years with out separating into their component elements. If we're just talking characteristics of the bronze, I think that the inclusion of "impurities" in the older alloys is a much more likely candidate for why older cymbals sound better. After all, anecdotal evidence says they used to toss an arbitrary "hand full" of silver coins into the molten alloys when they made the classic Ks. I also speculate that somewhat more random, human manufacturing processes such as hammering contribute to some "chaos" or randomness in the end product, resulting in a sound that we perceive as a rich or lush sound compared to a methodical and mechanical manufacturing process. Not to mention, deliberate human manufacturing processes that talented cymbal smiths such as yourself utilize to make cymbals sound great! Edited to say: great video! I enjoyed it!

If a customer genuinely feels like a mod will make their cymbal playable (to them) and something they would love to use, then I have zero issue modding them. Some disagree, and that's totally ok! To each his own.

Well, the "dogs" comment was a poor choice of words on my part. Should've said something to the effect of "they vary widely in the perceived sonic quality, but that is up for debate". I do know that A and K are separate entities as well. It's the consequence of not having a script! haha. Other that that, I stand by everything I said.

@@ReverieDrumCo No, there's no walking back your absolute garbage opinion. YOU SAID 90% of Old K's did not sound good. That's straight up bullshit. Armand and Avedis never sorted through Old K's., ... as a matter of fact they dragged Gretsch (Importer of K Zildjians) into court over DECADES (because they were jealous and threatened). Why would they bother if %90 of old K's were "dogs". WHERE ARE ALL THE TERRIBLE OLD K's????

@@ReverieDrumCo How the hell did Gretsch import a product with a %90 rate of "sounds bad". Get real.

@@CymbalVault No need for the aggression. We can agree to disagree. All the best, Timothy

@@ReverieDrumCo Nope, you're just spreading utter nonsense