A response to the video "Mo Wives, mo Problems' which seeks to discredit the CES letter on the topic of Polygamy. cesletter.org/ The original video is included under 'Fair Use' law for the purpose of critique.
Пікірлер: 236
@tysonhoffman74433 жыл бұрын
Very good job breaking down a lot of their flawed logic. One other thing to mention is they say if you don't believe in God, relationships are fine if consent is present. There are documented examples of Joseph using his leadership position or promises of salvation for the girl and her family to coerce a sealing. This is definitely not consent. Thanks for the work on this!
@slimyblob3 жыл бұрын
If I recall correctly Helen Mar Kimball also said she wouldn't have been sealed to Joseph if she knew it was anything more than ceremony.
@ahashdahnagila68843 жыл бұрын
@Shawn Maw I remember, too, that she lamented the loss of her childhood (i.e., a "wife" is no longer a "child": no more care-free behavior, and a loss of innocence).
@jonbaker4762 жыл бұрын
@@ahashdahnagila6884 Yes but that doesn't really account for why her mother was so distraught with the idea of her getting married to Joseph, especially since there are multiple examples of Joseph's wives being able to marry other men and have lives outside of their sealing to Joseph. So, why was she so distraught, especially if she had a chance to have a golden ticket to the CK?
@zacheryeckard30512 жыл бұрын
@@jonbaker476 Because he had sex with them.
@EleanorWilson13 жыл бұрын
I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at the stupidity of these 2 young men. I don’t think I have ever heard a more skewed, twisted and frankly embarrassing attempt to justify polygamy. Not once, during their immature and amateurish presentation did they ever consider how the women were feeling, or even refer to some of the miserable stories of women who were tricked into polygamy. Sorry, but if this is the best ‘God’s’ church can do then, it’s in big trouble. Good job on showing how ridiculous their claims are and how a mature person behaves!
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the kind words!
@bossendenwoodconvict3 жыл бұрын
I agree. There is probably something wrong with me, but I quite LIKE watching these boys uploads. They are SO awful and cringeable, and just get a kick out of watching them for that reason!
@ahashdahnagila68843 жыл бұрын
@Gamakly Wilson The women! The women! You got that right! I could tell you a story (if you're patient enough to wade through it): I was a home teacher, once upon a time, to a granddaughter of Brigham Young. (Yes, you understood it, correctly!) Sister Young was "Far, far Away [from] Judea's Plains"-- if you remember all of the good 'ol LDS hymns. (And, she was indeed far, far away from Utah, as was I.) She was a "happy widow", at that point in her life: her husband having 'also' had the surname Young (but no relation to 'Brother Brigham', he having been a convert from Pennsylvania, or some such place.) Sr. Young-- (Elizabeth, as I recall, but we were too respectful to call her by her given name, back then)-- was an avid reader and had an extensive personal library: she enjoyed reading, and found it [to be] a relaxing pasttime, much like embroidery is, to others. But, I digress. On occasion, in visiting her, I got the distinct impression that she wanted to share something with me; but, she always did a short stammer and quickly changed the subject. I concluded that she just wasn't sure if she could trust me with whatever was locked inside that "locket in her soul". One day, though, during one of our periodic visits, I blurted out, "Tell me what it was like being Brigham Young's granddaughter." (As observant as I was, I noticed a small, shy smile briefly come over her face: I remember that 'response' all these many years later. I was in my mid-30s, at the time.) Sister Elizabeth Young: what a kind-hearted, noble and unassuming soul! She didn't talk much about her grandfather; but, in measured sentences, she began-- slowly-- to relate what it was like to grow up in a polygamous home. There were 'only' two women married to her father: her mother was called the "sister wife", in those days, and was sealed to her husband more than a decade after Wilford Woodruff had capitulated to the demands of The U.S. Government and (in complying with those demands) had written the 1890 Manifesto. What? Good Mormon Leaders of the 19th century Q15 disobeying the "laws of the land" in order to give their own kin a leg up? (Well, it certainly happened: Sister Young's mother became that sister wife in 1902.) I think she wanted me to know something about how polygamy did not produce "one big happy family". (Sr. Young and her full-blooded siblings were treated like "urchins", by the children of wife number 1 and by that "aunt", herself: the kind of urchin you'd expect to encounter in the Charles Dickens' writings of mid-19th century England. And, Elizabeth Young's mother, it follows, was 'that other wench' [words quoted are mine].) The women! The women! Indeed! Addendum: I can just about hear Richard Burton (circa 1860) quoting Brigham Young, saying: "Servants are rare and costly; it is cheaper and more comfortable to marry them."
@hbendzulla82132 жыл бұрын
I could had never saint any bet. The two dude’s are a total miscarriage.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Yo Nemo. Kudos for your great work and logical reasoning in your videos. Just one tidbit of info to add on this issue, in case you aren't familiar with it. The two Mobot apologists tried to argue that plural marriage didn't necessarily include having sex. Here's what Brigham Young said about that: "This revelation, which God gave to Joseph, was for the express purpose of providing a channel for the organization of tabernacles, for those spirits to occupy who have been reserved to come forth in the kingdom of God, and that they might not be obliged to take tabernacles out of the kingdom of God." "I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty?-to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them. This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth." There's nothing in Young's statement here about non-sexual sealings for eternity only. Also from Todd Compton's book "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith": "In the group of Smith’s well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith’s own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group fifty-one to sixty. "The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy as an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith’s polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it." So, whether Joseph Smith had sex with 14 year old Helen Kimball or not, his activities with numerous other women tell us that he likely would have, if he hadn't been killed just a few months later. Considering that Smith was having sex with many other women---who testified to that in court proceedings---it's likely that he simply didn't have the opportunity to get to Helen.
@victorialynnwitbeck3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your willingness to fact check these videos! As a parent of millennials and gen Z’s it’s so important to have more calm, educated and rational dialogue about the truth.
@joecamel6196 Жыл бұрын
Toxey, Alabama.
@keilyoneal69723 жыл бұрын
Also they keep making the point that as long as polygamy is between consenting adults then it’s fine. Emma did not consent, and because of that Joseph went behind her back. What a horrific situation he put her in. They’re also saying other women’s husbands gave permission, but what about the wives? Did they consent? And can it even be considered consent if their eternal salvation is at stake? It’s as if they believe consent is only valid if it is coming from a man.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
It gets worse still, D&C states that there is a work around if the wife doesn't consent, and frames her as the sinner!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
"Also they keep making the point that as long as polygamy is between consenting adults then it’s fine." Yeah, except for the teensy-weensy fact that polygamy was against the law of the land and of the LDS church. As the LDS historian Todd Compton wrote: "The marriage to the Lawrence sisters became public knowledge when William Law, Joseph's second counselor in the First Presidency, became alienated from the prophet......On May 23 he filed suit against the Mormon leader in Hancock County Circuit Court, at Carthage, charging that Smith had been living with Maria Lawrence 'in an open state of adultery' from October 12, 1843, to the day of the suit. In response, Smith flatly denied polygamy in a speech delivered on May 26: '[The charges against me are false].....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.....[I can prove them all perjurers.]' As polygamy was illegal under US law, Smith had little choice but to repudiate the practice." (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, pp. 476-477.) Law couldn't have filed charges against Smith for polygamy and adultery if those activities hadn't been illegal. Duh. In fact, Mormon polygamy was never legal anywhere they practiced it, including in Utah territory.
@sheliabryant3997 Жыл бұрын
TECHNICALLY, (since this seems to be both a pass for some & fail for others), what is the difference between "consensual polygamy" for the brethren & plain ol' nasty "con- sensual sex" for those they hold themselves as qualified to judge?
@bradensorensen9663 жыл бұрын
Nobody complained [citation needed] so Joseph Smith’s harmful actions were okay!! 🤦♂️
@TheShodan923 жыл бұрын
It has me wondering why Smith was tarred and feathered, and later killed by an angry mob. You must wonder why they did such things?.
@gordons-alive49403 ай бұрын
Sounds like a lot of them weren't happy about what he was doing.
@dork2dork3 жыл бұрын
These videos from Fair Mormon are going to backfire. Their irreverence is not going to help the cause of the church. I find them in bad taste. Thank you for your commentary, please keep up the good work.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
I think the backfire has already begun!
@egonaigner47573 жыл бұрын
I've never seen such clownery as I have with this series by FAIR. Embarrassing to the Church. Great breakdown. Love your work.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thank you kindly!
@shawnbradford22433 жыл бұрын
It’s funny they pick and choose who’s journal they cite if it’s credible or not by if it helps their claims!
@jonbaker4762 жыл бұрын
It's interesting to me how members are so quick to dismiss someone's opinion if they left the church. "Yeah well he left the church so his testimony isn't reliable." I literally cannot tell you how many times I've heard that exact phrase throughout my life growing up in the religion
@loyalopposition4791 Жыл бұрын
Nemo, I so appreciate your calm logical analysis. My family is 7th generation Mormom. Your content is digestable, especially when rebuttalling these two, who try to lace their arguments with shame and scorn towards anyone who would dare question the church's narrative.
@radiofreeutah53283 жыл бұрын
Well done, keep it up! They're definitely lightweights as far as logic is concerned. The "presentism" argument is particularly funny. Want to know if Joseph Smith's polygamy was considered outrageous at the time? Well, apart from committing perjury to hide it, I think all the outrage may give us a hint as to how contemporaries felt.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
A lot of these Mormon apologists argue that it wasn't unusual for a man in his 30s to marry a teenage girl in those days. But what they can't get through their thick skulls is that it was never legal or proper for a man in his 30s WHO ALREADY HAS A WIFE AND CHILDREN to "plural marry" another woman OF ANY AGE. "Plural marriage" was never legal at any time when the Mormons practiced it, and it was against the canonized laws of the LDS church the entire time Joseph Smith practiced it. In fact, the section of the D&C which prohibited polygamy remained in that volume until 1876.
@bossendenwoodconvict3 жыл бұрын
So at 14:13, is Kwaku actually saying that because Joseph Smith was sealed to a 78 year old, that precludes him from being a paedophile also??
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Seems that way!!
@jaquino4513 жыл бұрын
Young married much older women were based on financial many of these women were very wealthy. Smith did the same thing nothing new.
@jaquino4513 жыл бұрын
The problem is that many of these women in court and in private diaries admitted to having sexual relations with him. The 14 year old girl wrote about it she was torn and did not want to be with Smith. They didn't read in sacred loneliness where these women recount their sexual relationships with Smith. They testified to this in a court of law.
@carmenoreilly1433 жыл бұрын
Nemo saying "Maybe you should read [D&C]" had me howling. Excellent job, as always. These idiots do a better job of pushing people out than the CES Letter itself, sometimes.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thanks!!! I’m sure there is a reason it was a limited series 😂
@carmenoreilly1433 жыл бұрын
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'm honestly astounded the script cleared for airing. Nobody bothered to do a scrap of research into counter arguments or substantiation.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
I don’t know if it’s because they think the youth (at whom this was targeted) are so devoid of critical thinking that they would swallow it, or if it’s because they just gave Kwaku way too much rope!
@carmenoreilly1433 жыл бұрын
@@NEMOTHEMORMON he's so vapid and thinks because he can say fifty words where ten matter, he's right. And yeah, they do a clear disservice to the target audience, you're completely correct
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Dittos. Those guys' target audience is young, naive, uninformed Mormons.
@Bazcole933 жыл бұрын
These guys are painful
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Yep, imagine having to watch this multiple times to prep!!!
@gracethroughfaith7 Жыл бұрын
I can't stand the rudeness and carelessness of these two young men. For someone who was genuinely seeking the truth I was trying to find answers. Not only did they not answer the question, but made people who had the question out to be stupid while making the most childish rude remarks about them. I guess though thank you to them for showing their true colors through it. I have since come to the truth thank goodness.
@NEMOTHEMORMON Жыл бұрын
Glad you have come to the truth!
@stimey143 жыл бұрын
When the defense is made that the wives of Joseph Smith defended him, defended the church and defended the practice of polygamy we can look at the wives of Warren Jeffs and get the exact same thing. I find it interesting that LDS people who condemn Warren Jeffs as disgusting, will defend Joseph Smith. They do not seem that different to me.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Not every woman whom Joseph Smith propositioned went along with him or defended him. Several prominent ones were Nancy Rigdon, Martha Brotherton, Sarah Pratt, and Jane Law.
@howardfairbanks69653 жыл бұрын
Thank you. This is the first time I've been able to make it through and one of their videos with you excellent and cogent commentary.
@certainlyitis3 жыл бұрын
Nemo, you're a freaking saint to be able to watch these 2 people speak. Im glad, for the time being anyway, they have ceased making videos. They are *incredibly* annoying. Though Im annoyed for having to listen to them, Im very glad you endured through this and recorded your repsonse. It's important.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thank hou very much! I have another video saved and will at some point in future cover that one asiel, maybe to celebrate a subscriber milestone! Thanks for watching!
@matthewrichards82182 жыл бұрын
They are so bad at this! 🤣 They make EVERY mormon look bad.
@sc7662 жыл бұрын
A brilliant response to these guys who didn't bother to do their proper research and they contradict to their own statements. No surprise it was taken off. Love your videos Nemo!
@shannahdawn47242 жыл бұрын
Nero you are a hero! I attempted to watch the um … comedians… 🥴 Alas, I failed “to be tolerant”. 🥴 You made it worth my time. Thank you!! 🤣
@JP-JustSayin2 жыл бұрын
I'm really glad you are out there Nemo... speaking directly to the apologetics and showing how it doesn't hold up. The quote from D&C 132 alone blows up their entire position. Keep up the good work!
@AJ-et3vf2 жыл бұрын
Nice! Awesome video! Thank you! Your breakdown and dissection of their fallacies are impeccable and pinpoint. Whewww, now in 2022 these clowns are nowhere to be seen after their shenanigans ran for a few months. Fair Mormon had their channel deleted around March last year, further showing how much bravery (or lack of) and integrity the Mormon cult has.
@sallyostling2 жыл бұрын
Fair Mormon was instructed to take them down. Now they have a "new" show that may or may not be funded by the church. It's very mean spirited and very "bro" culture. It's not scripted like t.i.t.s, just them being very argumentative about the same stuff. Calling exmo's "victim Olympians", boomers ruining the church, John Delhin is Mormon Voldemort, etc.
@cheryltyler94123 жыл бұрын
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I’m so very grateful you take time to clear up these issues. It becomes very clear why the citizens of Missouri and Illinois were so focused on getting the Mormons to leave their states. Had I lived back then, I would have been very worried about my daughters. Please make more. Ideas like this. I like the fact they’re shorter and focus on one issue. They’re easier to share with people I care about.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad, cheers for watching!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Actually, polygamy wasn't the reason the Mormons were run out of Ohio, Missouri, or Illinois. The primary reason was that the Mormons tried to take over the areas they settled in and drive all non-Mormons out. Also, the Mormons were "land pirates." They stole property from non-Mormons everywhere they went. In fact, the Mountain Meadows Massacre in Utah territory was an example of that culture of institutional theft. A former member of Joseph Smith's secret "Council Of Fifty" explained why the Mormons were run out of Illinois in 1846: "While the Mormons were rapidly increasing in numbers and daily increasing their power and wealth, the country around was suffering from a succession of robberies almost without parallel in the annals of crime. Stock of every description and goods of all kinds were constantly taken, and all in the vicinity trembled lest they, like their neighbors, might be stripped of their all without a hope of restoration or revenge. The offenders were frequently tracked in the direction of Nauvoo, and sometimes, though rarely, the property was recovered, but in no case could the perpetrators of the crime be arrested and brought to justice. In case of an arrest at Nauvoo the accused were immediately released by the city authorities, and the cry of 'persecution against the Saints' raised, effectually drowning the pleas for justice of the injured, and the officer forced to return and tell the tale of defeat. This done, the fugitive found a safe shelter under the widespread wings of the Mormon leaders, and laughed at pursuit." ("The Banditti of the Prairies," Edward Bonney, U. of Oklahoma Press, pp. 15-16.)
@lucasyates18933 жыл бұрын
And just because "certain men" were ok with Joseph marrying their wives does NOT mean that ALL of them were ok with it.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Great point!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
True, and that fact led directly to Joseph Smith's death.
@12day13 жыл бұрын
Thank you for doing these videos. Just an opinion but maybe you could put fairmormon in your video title or hashtag because everyone needs to see the truth/their lies.
@sheliabryant3997 Жыл бұрын
Yes, these boys are plutonium in the churchyard
@2ndjoshua2682 жыл бұрын
I've been a lifetime LDS member so I really just got around to reading The Old KJV Bible and was surprised how many contradictions I would have found a long time ago had I studied my scriptures correctly. Being on the autism spectrum I've always tried to follow every rule to the letter and have just about killed myself trying to serve two masters. Thank you for this. God bless. ✌️
@sheliabryant3997 Жыл бұрын
Bless your heart. Have you tried a Non-jst Bible? That would give you a fairly decent start at just NT truth to relieve your mind/heart from zombifying religion. I am old. And "on spectrum." I am still trying to "recover.". Didn't begin til 50+. Best to you.
@johneasler99672 жыл бұрын
It's hard enough to get along with ONE!
@calebseverson318 Жыл бұрын
Yes quite difficult to watch this. Your suffering on our behalf to know more is much appreciated Nemo
@NEMOTHEMORMON Жыл бұрын
My pleasure!
@BGCflyer3 жыл бұрын
Very accurate Nemo, nice job! These young boys are mostly about entertainment which is evident in their level of church history knowledge.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Cheers!
@sheliabryant3997 Жыл бұрын
And not at all entertaining. Idiocy
@isaac00793 жыл бұрын
This is the kind of stuff that makes me really embarrassed that I was ever mormon.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Don't be embarrassed. Be mad that you were lied to by church leaders and scholars.
@isaac0079 Жыл бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Everyone lies. I don't begrudge the church for being dishonest.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
@@isaac0079 LOL. One of the questions in the LDS temple recommend interview is "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?" If the church as an institution is not honest re: its founding, its history, and its practices, the church is not in a moral position to judge any of its members' honesty.
@touretteslife Жыл бұрын
Excellent job Nemo. Those guys are so obnoxious it’s unreal.
@wmehsstudio8 ай бұрын
I actually feel bad for the LDS church being represented by these two guys. They completely demonstrate the “Mormon elitism” evangelicals snicker about. It’s heartbreaking.
@williamstilgoe613 жыл бұрын
Good job on sorting out some of the stupid claims. I could not believe it when they started on the ‘if there is no god’ routine. I can’t wait for them to cover the ‘Joseph corrected his own translation’ the B of M v New Testament stuff.
@leahhumberstone10103 жыл бұрын
Great job! Please keep the videos coming. I’m so embarrassed for all Mormons who defend polygamy. As a woman, I know it’s definitely NOT from God.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Leah Humberstone Thanks, make sure you subscribe so you know when the next one lands. Glad you liked it!
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
@William Stilgoe It's on its way!
@kennethd.94363 жыл бұрын
@17:50 I enjoyed your response that if Joseph wasn’t living with the wives, than his polygamy was about getting easy access to women for sex. If Kwaku went to different wards each Sunday and has different “girlfriends” in each, but doesn’t marry any of them, he’s not acting in good faith towards any of the women he’s with.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@sheliabryant3997 Жыл бұрын
Do you suppose he would have any success at these wards?
@alexwilliamns3 жыл бұрын
I can’t stand the “Jeremy is an atheist” thing... Explaining issues in the Church from my atheistic worldview doesn’t work because members of the church aren’t operating on that premise. The issue of polygamy has to be discussed using the contradictions in Mormonism’s own theology, because we aren’t talking to atheists, we’re talking to Mormons.
@poppyshock2 жыл бұрын
I came basically to say this. Jeremy was not protesting polygamy, per se, but pointing out the inconsistencies between the stated doctrine of the church and polygamy as actually practiced by Joseph, who all of all people should have gotten it right if he was a prophet of God.
@ryanthomastew3 жыл бұрын
The Cream of Wheat and molasses cookies was a reference to her age. Those are common food items for the older grandmas
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Cheers for clarifying!
@yorgasor3 жыл бұрын
I was looking for information on the 78 year old woman Joseph Smith married. There's this wiki page that lists Jane Tippets as 78 and marrying him "before 1844": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives However, she was not included in the Year of Polygamy podcast, and looking through Todd Compton's book, he lists "Jane Tibbetts" as a posthumous marriage that occurred in 1846. Besides, love and sex are not the only reasons to marry someone. You might also marry someone for power, influence or money. Joseph had a lot of financial problems, and married his foster daughter who was given a substantial trust fund that Joseph had control over. After his death, that wife never did get her trust fund. Joseph also liked to use older women to approach the younger women and proposition them for marriage. So, just because he's marrying older women and not having sex with them doesn't mean he's doing it out of benevolence.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant insight, thank you!
@sallyostling2 жыл бұрын
NO FREAKING wonder these were yanked down. Ridiculous 🙄
@bryceburgart85443 жыл бұрын
“Usain Bolt ran multiple 100m races, one of them with a time of 9.58 seconds”. I guess you could say that’s misleading, since his average time for 100m is 10.44 seconds.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
You got it!
@MrPhillipjac3 жыл бұрын
3:05 also, John D Lee was the point man for the mountain meadow massacre. If it was me I don't know if I would want to use him as a discussion point.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
That’s an excellent point, cheers!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Lee was actually several pegs down the line of authority of people who were responsible for the MMM. The man ultimately responsible for the incident was Brigham Young, who held a war council with 12 southern Indian chiefs a week before they attacked the wagon train. In that council, Young told the chiefs that they could have all the cattle that were heading to California on "the south route," which was the route that the emigrants were traveling on at that very moment. Apostle George A. Smith traveled to southern Utah to whip up the local Mormons against the emigrants. Stake presidents William Dame and Isaac Haight outranked Lee on the scene of the crime, and they gave the orders.
@ahashdahnagila68843 жыл бұрын
Aren't those two dodos (and their Brooklyn-sounding associates) now DEFUNDED by the LDS Corporation?
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Their videos were deleted by the church sponsored apologist organisation which funded them, yeah.
@lyndsiepoland63793 жыл бұрын
I'm really bothered that when they discuss polygamy, no one ever mentions the other men that practiced it. The topic always lands on Joseph and whether or not his relationships were sexual, but the other men who practiced polygamy aren't dissected in the same way and I think that is by design. Brigham Young for instance, he also married Zina Huntington. My questions about her has never been successfully answered by my family and it was one of the first things I ever discovered about a man I had originally revered. My questions are this: Why couldn't married women just be sealed to their own husbands? If Joseph Smith was using sealings to create bonds in heaven, then why couldn't Zina go back to her husband for time when Joseph died? Why then was she given to Brigham Young? She had children with her first husband? Why couldn't she then live with him? Why was she treated like property? There's a lot of darkness in polygamy long after Joseph's death. Emma Smith denounced the whole thing and Brigham Young condemned her to hell for it. Was he speaking as a man or prophet then? If so, why do Mormons still discuss Emma Smith? On and on.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Brigham Young told Zina's legal husband Henry that because she had been sealed to Joseph Smith, she now belonged to him for eternity, and that Henry "will have to go and find yourself another wife." Young said in a sermon that part of the law of the priesthood was that if a woman desired a man who ranked higher in the church, she could leave him and be sealed to the higher ranking man. That's how Zina became sealed to Brigham. So, Mormon polygamy was really just wife-swapping.
@keljar20073 жыл бұрын
Brilliant work. Those two fellas really are buffoons. We could take their chicanery as entertainment (for someone I suppose) if it didn’t have such serious consequences for people who are assuaged by their absurd fallacies.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Thank you! You're right, they would be easy to dismiss, were it not for the damage they do!
@zmig77933 жыл бұрын
@ Nemo - I just came across your videos. Good stuff ... short and to the point. I have subscribed and look forward to more of your content
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Cheers!
@schrecksekunde21183 жыл бұрын
You should absolutely do more, please!
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Will do! Thanks for Watching!
@nateman33652 жыл бұрын
How does “The step I am now taking is for eternity alone” mean no sexual relations? Because of adult pressure and religious conditioning, wouldn’t that just be her reasoning to go against her gut feeling. I don’t see how that statement has anything to do with the physical ramifications of the choice.
@lucasyates18933 жыл бұрын
And what was used to secure the "consent" of the children Joseph Smith married?
@lucasyates18933 жыл бұрын
Anyone else extremely creeped out by how smug Kwaku is when he implies over and over again about the fornication he's done in the past?
@Greghuntersranch3 жыл бұрын
I am curious why Mormon women can’t have 30 husbands?
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Because polygamy was designed by men I suppose...
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Because their vaginas would be demolished?
@jakefromvegas5 ай бұрын
That one guy has the "south park" untrustworthy salesman voice. 😂
@Robbity3 жыл бұрын
Did he say wiggle wiggle wiggle and then screech the riff from “Talk Dirty.” I can’t even with Kwaku.
@nae00672 жыл бұрын
Wow this is just sad they basically say there is no room inside or outside of religion for people to hate polygamy.
@joshuamatthews45293 жыл бұрын
Joseph was ran out of multiple states for his sexual promiscuity, which should tell you what the people of his day thought about his practices.
@coalhouse19813 жыл бұрын
Also we do have quotes of women saying the angel with a sword thing. Both Mary Rollins Lightner and Eliza Snow mention. Apologists love to point out that the angel with a sword thing mostly comes from second hand accounts which they do.. but mainly faithful people
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Many religious people were very superstitious and gullible back then.
@uthinkiamhot Жыл бұрын
Informed consenting adults, none of those three conditions were met in many of Joe's relationships.
@kimanderson93802 ай бұрын
I don’t care if husbands were ok with Joseph marrying their wives. There would need to be consent of the woman (currently married and also a bride?) as well. What is this? A gentleman’s agreement? OMG!! Most of what these yahoos say is excusing the bad behavior, ie the CES Letter is telling the truth, but here’s why it doesn’t matter.
@uthinkiamhot2 ай бұрын
@@kimanderson9380 agreed! Even Emma's "concent" was coerced. Joe was a sleezeball by modern and his own time's standards.
@jamesmorphe80033 жыл бұрын
If you are majoring in red herrings and strawmen and maybe asshattery in college, this video should be mandatory viewing. Also, I wonder how kwakup would feel, if the love of his life, his wife, announced she wanted to bring a big white dude into their marriage.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
"Asshattery" LOL. I wonder, what kind of woman would consent to marry that Kwaku dude? Eww.
@joecamel6196 Жыл бұрын
Those two kids will deeply regret this video. :.
@steelman15062 жыл бұрын
U did great Nemo. Love your content. Please do more
@NEMOTHEMORMON2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@Shadowfate933 жыл бұрын
Gotta love how they don't address the inherit problem with religious polygamy is really coercion, power dynamics and systemic abuse Also someone should probably let Kwaku know that you're not a virgin if you've "soaked"
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
I would be very surprised if any woman ever had sex with Kwaku.
@patrickferguson5962 Жыл бұрын
I’ve only just found this video now. But as an ex-Catholic never-Mo who has enjoyed plenty of ex-Mormon type content, this is the first time a videos title made me laugh out loud literally! :)
@theeight-roadwanderer6286 Жыл бұрын
In regards to the whole consent/polygamy thing. The reality is that it IS okay to practice polygamy as long s there is consent. But the issue is that JS didn't really give them consent, it was all manipulation and secrecy and coercion. The fact that Joseph hid it from everyone is evidence of this Edit: to clarify, I mean that it's okay to practice polygamy in an objective sense. According to Mormon theology and the BOM, it absolutely wasn't okay whatsoever. And with all that said, monogamy is still the best option overall for people, notwithstanding your belief system or preferences
@shawnbradford22433 жыл бұрын
Use the dna claim on the lamanite 😂😂😂
@suigeneris26633 жыл бұрын
You’re terrible.
@Sayheybrother83 жыл бұрын
For a time Orson wanted to kill himself and Joseph had to talk him down. It seems he was offered polygamous wives himself and then every was good to go.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
And then Orson became such a fanatic about polygamy that his legal wife Sarah left him and the church.
@Sayheybrother8 Жыл бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 I know! Sometimes O wonder how we take any of this stuff too seriously? It’s like a day time soap opera but the Lords true church?
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
@@Sayheybrother8 Having been born and raised Mormon, I took it seriously because the truth about Mormon history had been kept from me. I had to learn the truth from sources other than the church.
@Sayheybrother8 Жыл бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 and in what other parts of our lives do we dismiss a person or orgs active omission of truth to create a better story or “faithful” rendition of events? We put CEO’s in prison for misreporting their numbers to make they’re companies look stronger in the financial world. An argument could be made that the mis reporting of membership numbers and finances or foundational beliefs of a tax exempt organization could be worth review.
@robinnetto6794 Жыл бұрын
I never watch these guys. Ugh! I love how you logically assess all areas of the church. They just cause confusion with members.
@jacquelyngilbertson24082 жыл бұрын
Two thoughts, 1. In European royalty and aristocratic society, it was common for mistresses to be married so that any children borne to them could be attributed to their husbands and did not have to be acknowledged The video said that there was no offspring between JS and a plural wife but did any of the wives have children during the time they were married to their earthly husbands after the spiritual sealings? Was this investigated through DNA on descendants of the women and compared to known descendants of JS to see if there familial similarities or just "Well JS isn't on the birth certificate so the kid can't be his". 2. The argument that there is no written record left the the teenage girls on whether JS had a sexual relationship with them so therefore it must not have happened is such a load of rubbish (I'm trying to put it nicely). There is no written record about my sex life either. It's not something that I want to write about but it must have happened at least a couple of times because I have five kids to prove it. In polite society, such tings were not spoken about so why would they be written down either?
@sahmeerodies16863 жыл бұрын
The video is private now
@jonbaker4762 жыл бұрын
Kwaku makes the argument that if you're an atheist then there isn't anything wrong with polygamy, since marriage is all manmade anyway. He actually has a good point there, but the problem is when he brings up "consensuality". The problem is that it wasn't consensual, and the majority of the women felt coerced into it. I'm sure that there was a decent chunk of women were attracted to Smith's charisma and power, but it is undoubtedly true that heavy coercion was also in play
@oddcheese63846 ай бұрын
The women’s feelings about polygamy are not even considered and in the majority of cases they didn’t like the arrangements but couldn’t say no. I have family stories about ancestors who practiced polygamy at this time. The women hated it and any time one of them had a fight with their husband he would just go to another wife’s house instead of resolving it. It’s not a good situation for the wives or children and I refuse to believe God commanded it. And the church wouldn’t have stopped without being threatened if they continued. If polygamy became accepted now I believe they would go back to it. The FLDS are living the gospel as the early leaders of the church intended and we can see how harmful that has been to everyone involved. “If he had ever said that to these women there would be quotes from these women about it.” No, women have been notoriously silenced throughout history. It is not surprising that there is so little evidence of these women’s perspectives from this time. They’re explaining women’s experiences and don’t even know what plan b is? Please. Tell us you don’t understand what being a woman is like without saying it some more boys.
@bryceburgart85443 жыл бұрын
“Yakutsk is the coldest city in the world. It has had temperatures as low as -64.4°C” Yakutsk apologist: “this is misleading, since we’ve only recorded this temperature once, and in the summer, it can get quite hot, and the daily mean of -8.8°C, though quite cold, is fairly typical of an Arctic town”
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Hmmmm, seems legit...
@jonipitcher7185 Жыл бұрын
While I study polygamy it never seems like 100% the women is all on board. It always seems manipulative.
@colinfountain59Ай бұрын
It all sounds like they were operating a secret swingers club back then, but just weren't calling it that, instead justifying it saying they were sealed.
@alexwilliamns3 жыл бұрын
Presentism. Look, I get it, BUT! If you have a prophet of god being ruled, not by what’s right, but what’s trendy... kinda defeats the purpose.
@bossendenwoodconvict3 жыл бұрын
I agree. I would rather mormons be serious and conservative, than try to be trendy and "with it." It's just not them, and I find their attempts to be cool, really cringeable.
@jonbaker4762 жыл бұрын
You know, I always thought that the doctrines of God were supposed to be plain and simple, and that we are to delight in the simplicity of it. Every time polygamy or the seerstones come up, the apologist arguments are anything but simple. It's just dozen of hoops and obstacles you have to work around. In other words, mental gymnastics.
@billy23953 жыл бұрын
Please keep making these videos!
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Will do!
@tenny8103 жыл бұрын
Do you have a Patreon or a one time donation?
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Just setting something up! Will let you know when it’s sorted!
@jaquino4513 жыл бұрын
They are losing the younger crowed
@exmodeadpool3 жыл бұрын
What about Nancy Maria Winchester? She was also 14?
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
I wasn't aware of her, got sources, I'd be interested to learn more!
@exmodeadpool3 жыл бұрын
@@NEMOTHEMORMON en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives I know it is just Wikipedia, but Fairmormon could mention that she could be his wife, but it is not certain. The problem with their show and Gospel Topics Essays is they only answer questions that are asked directly and try not to reveal any additional information.
@patriciafinn5717 Жыл бұрын
A pair of muppets
@waterfall_brook2 жыл бұрын
Thank you, Nemo! "The Plan B pill" was called wild carrot seed back then. The missionaries were living among the Native Americans to convert them, so there's no reason they wouldn't have learned about it, and women have always been good about keeping those little secrets.
@mozzarellababy54812 жыл бұрын
These two goons do make some compelling arguments that god doesn't exist.
@ldgormleyful3 ай бұрын
These two men are truly embarrassing
@rstevenhanson3 жыл бұрын
I just looked up “bush league” in the dictionary and found pictures of these two clowns. I mean, they went into this knowing their content would be flawed because they are trying to defend the indefensible, so you would think they would hire someone other than their local middle school AV club to write and produce it. No wonder they pulled the plug on this project. So happy they tried to take these off the internet and failed! This egg on their face will live on! Thanks, NEMO! Presentism may be a plausible defense for many heroes/villains in history; however, it falls short when used to defend one who PROPHESIZES to SEE what god REVEALS to him. Isn’t the point of modern-day revelation to guide us to eternal truth so we are not tossed to and fro and blown about by the current ideas of men? Sadly, the church uses this defense to justify racism and sexism as well. "Everyone else was doing it, so be nice!" I just don’t see the value in having a prophet when they are decades behind society on so many important social issues. Not only do their prophets fail to see what’s coming, but they have always struggled to see what was happening all around them while it was happening! It saddens me that so many fail to see what is so obvious: it’s all made up!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, he should have been able to foresee that his sexual habits would get him killed.
@somewhere41323 жыл бұрын
HOLD UP. Joseph had the women get abortions??? What the hell
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
That's one theory, based on testimony from the time.
@tthinker98972 жыл бұрын
I never heard of the abortions before! But I seem to remember that Brigham Young, the next prophet, said that no one could go to the celestial kingdom without plural marriage, and he also said that anything he said could be considered as God-given doctrine. So are all Mormons plural married?
@xx_mojat_xx3 жыл бұрын
This is actually the best 😂😭
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Cheers!
@patricianoel77822 жыл бұрын
Nemo, please check a talk by JR Holland. He was speaking to a woman’s meeting/ conferences. Listed under”Elder Holland; Exaltation and dealings when there is a death… I hope you can find it. About 3 months ago.🤓
@NEMOTHEMORMON2 жыл бұрын
I’ll take a look, cheers!
@coalhouse19813 жыл бұрын
One thing you failed to hit on was the claim that Smith was fertile. I’m sure that’s true. Yes and he Emma had many children but I think almost half were stillborn . I think it’s at least possbile that Smith had trouble producing kids
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Great point, thanks!
@ryanthomastew3 жыл бұрын
Great video!!! Do more!!!
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
R2 D2 thanks! More incoming, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss me!
@perryekimae3 жыл бұрын
"Just because something seems weird or makes us feel uncomfortable doesn't mean it's immoral." Look at Brad making a solid, if admittedly poorly-worded, argument in favor gay marriage, same-gender relationships, and transgender identities. Hail Brad, the LGBTQ ally! /s/
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
Hahaha! Great point!
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
But is the thing immoral if it's against the law of the land and of the church that you're the founder and president of? The church law that you personally cited when someone asked you if your church allowed the practice of polygamy?
@perryekimae Жыл бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure that I understand your question, but I'm going to take a stab at it. If I've missed the point, just let me know. I don't think that the factors you listed are the reason why Mormon polygamy was immoral. I think the underlying acts of deception are immoral that you infer are immoral. Mormon polygamy was immoral because of the way it subjates women, harms the children in the unions, and disenfranchises the men who do not or cannot participate (and a bunch of other reasons we could get into). Joseph's lying about it was immoral. But Joseph's lying about it didn't make the polygamy immoral. It was his other practices that did that.
@randyjordan5521 Жыл бұрын
@@perryekimae Polygamy is illegal because of what you noted: it subjugates women, and also threatens the foundation of society, which is the family organization. If Joseph Smith's polygamy practice had been moral, he needn't have lied about it.
@perryekimae Жыл бұрын
@@randyjordan5521 I agree with your last sentence. I kinda disagree with your first though. The idea that the same people who maintained the ownership of other human beings as a legal practice made polygamy illegal for moral reasons, or that it was made illegal because those men who disenfranchised women cared about the subjugation of women... it just doesn't track for me. Rather, it gives far too much credit to a political institution that is notorious for being on the wrong side of moral arguments. I think it's much more simple: polygamy made some repressed powerful men feel icky, so they criminalized it. That fits the pattern, honestly. If Joseph had practiced ethical polyamory, even if that practice was not legal, I don't think it would be the shelf-breaker that polygamy is. Had there been actual consent, no weird age gaps, etc., even if the practice was illegal and Joseph publicly lied, I just don't think it would cause so many people to leave the church. It's the sliminess and the depravity of it that seems to get people. I also think your point about polygamy undermining the family structure needs to be workshopped. Family organization and its role in the larger community is nebulous, malleable, and always changing. With that in mind, it's difficult, if not unreasonable, to use that as a justification for criminalizing a behavior. Joseph's polygamy should have been illegal because it was depraved, harmful, and without the consent of many of its participants. The reasons why it was actually made illegal were most likely much less noble than that. Same end, I suppose, but I would hesitate to give lawmakers much credit for it.
@parkerplace29102 жыл бұрын
Talking about Joseph's sex life is a close as kwaku will ever get to sex with a woman....just saying.
@Jsppydays5 ай бұрын
Hey boys, If Joseph was not a polygamist (he was) he definitely was an adulteress, Great example as a prophet. So, let's start with the good old Brigham Young. He was a prophet for 30 years. I'm sure he lived it as Joseph intended or eventually would have. The church is really Brigham Young's anyway. What can the two clowns from their podcast say about him? We just cannot take them seriously and cannot get through one of their pod casts. Their energy and mocking attitude is a huge turn off. They need to change. Great video Nemo. My husband and I enjoy everyone.
@MichaelLivingston-meАй бұрын
We have a problem in present time with men and women being sexually involved with mulitiple sex partners without regard to consequences. As far as I can determine, at least the children were being cared for, even with severe material shortages. That's not necessarily the situation today. Abandonment of children by one or both parents is common today. Polygamy by these early leaders wasn't for lofty "celestial" purpose. They used their position of authority to gain control and have sex with multiple women. The B of M is a work of fiction. An amalgamation of the Bible as well as contemporary stories about the origin of Native Americans. There's no authority passed on by angels and gods to Joseph Smith. Therefore, the revealing of polygamy in D&C 132 is as valid as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young expounding on the people living on the moon. JK Rowling's writings are better than these mythical creations.
@soldierofchrist4ever Жыл бұрын
It's like I died and went to hell and this is what was on T.V. (Nemo, being the exception)
@mckster562 жыл бұрын
They kinda lied alot
@CatskillsGrrl Жыл бұрын
Wow. I’m catching up on your back catalog and I love it all, but this video is *so cringe* I just can’t do it. 😣
@InNOWvations3 жыл бұрын
many of your comments while they are talking cannot be heard....maybe you could write the comments on the picture so we can still hear them and know your comments. When you pause to make a comment that works well. There presentation is really sad and embarrassing and misleading.....oh yah, who's generating their response.
@NEMOTHEMORMON3 жыл бұрын
If you check out my later videos, I hope my editing has improved somewhat!
@calebargyle86362 жыл бұрын
Abraham Lincoln likely had a gay lover actually
@QuinnBeasley-tx1xd8 ай бұрын
Love your content
@DDoane82 жыл бұрын
These two young men are embarrassing themselves badly. Gentlemen save your time with this kind of drivel, and go back to your books and learn to understand the Book of Mormon words in the context they were written down in, a Hebrew context, and you will learn more.