@Shawn Maw I remember, too, that she lamented the loss of her childhood (i.e., a "wife" is no longer a "child": no more care-free behavior, and a loss of innocence).

@@ahashdahnagila6884 Yes but that doesn't really account for why her mother was so distraught with the idea of her getting married to Joseph, especially since there are multiple examples of Joseph's wives being able to marry other men and have lives outside of their sealing to Joseph. So, why was she so distraught, especially if she had a chance to have a golden ticket to the CK?

@@jonbaker476 Because he had sex with them.

Thank you for the kind words!

I agree. There is probably something wrong with me, but I quite LIKE watching these boys uploads. They are SO awful and cringeable, and just get a kick out of watching them for that reason!

@Gamakly Wilson The women! The women! You got that right! I could tell you a story (if you're patient enough to wade through it): I was a home teacher, once upon a time, to a granddaughter of Brigham Young. (Yes, you understood it, correctly!) Sister Young was "Far, far Away [from] Judea's Plains"-- if you remember all of the good 'ol LDS hymns. (And, she was indeed far, far away from Utah, as was I.) She was a "happy widow", at that point in her life: her husband having 'also' had the surname Young (but no relation to 'Brother Brigham', he having been a convert from Pennsylvania, or some such place.) Sr. Young-- (Elizabeth, as I recall, but we were too respectful to call her by her given name, back then)-- was an avid reader and had an extensive personal library: she enjoyed reading, and found it [to be] a relaxing pasttime, much like embroidery is, to others. But, I digress. On occasion, in visiting her, I got the distinct impression that she wanted to share something with me; but, she always did a short stammer and quickly changed the subject. I concluded that she just wasn't sure if she could trust me with whatever was locked inside that "locket in her soul". One day, though, during one of our periodic visits, I blurted out, "Tell me what it was like being Brigham Young's granddaughter." (As observant as I was, I noticed a small, shy smile briefly come over her face: I remember that 'response' all these many years later. I was in my mid-30s, at the time.) Sister Elizabeth Young: what a kind-hearted, noble and unassuming soul! She didn't talk much about her grandfather; but, in measured sentences, she began-- slowly-- to relate what it was like to grow up in a polygamous home. There were 'only' two women married to her father: her mother was called the "sister wife", in those days, and was sealed to her husband more than a decade after Wilford Woodruff had capitulated to the demands of The U.S. Government and (in complying with those demands) had written the 1890 Manifesto. What? Good Mormon Leaders of the 19th century Q15 disobeying the "laws of the land" in order to give their own kin a leg up? (Well, it certainly happened: Sister Young's mother became that sister wife in 1902.) I think she wanted me to know something about how polygamy did not produce "one big happy family". (Sr. Young and her full-blooded siblings were treated like "urchins", by the children of wife number 1 and by that "aunt", herself: the kind of urchin you'd expect to encounter in the Charles Dickens' writings of mid-19th century England. And, Elizabeth Young's mother, it follows, was 'that other wench' [words quoted are mine].) The women! The women! Indeed! Addendum: I can just about hear Richard Burton (circa 1860) quoting Brigham Young, saying: "Servants are rare and costly; it is cheaper and more comfortable to marry them."

I could had never saint any bet. The two dude’s are a total miscarriage.

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Yo Nemo. Kudos for your great work and logical reasoning in your videos. Just one tidbit of info to add on this issue, in case you aren't familiar with it. The two Mobot apologists tried to argue that plural marriage didn't necessarily include having sex. Here's what Brigham Young said about that: "This revelation, which God gave to Joseph, was for the express purpose of providing a channel for the organization of tabernacles, for those spirits to occupy who have been reserved to come forth in the kingdom of God, and that they might not be obliged to take tabernacles out of the kingdom of God." "I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty?-to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them. This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth." There's nothing in Young's statement here about non-sexual sealings for eternity only. Also from Todd Compton's book "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith": "In the group of Smith’s well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith’s own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group fifty-one to sixty. "The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy as an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith’s polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it." So, whether Joseph Smith had sex with 14 year old Helen Kimball or not, his activities with numerous other women tell us that he likely would have, if he hadn't been killed just a few months later. Considering that Smith was having sex with many other women---who testified to that in court proceedings---it's likely that he simply didn't have the opportunity to get to Helen.

Toxey, Alabama.

It gets worse still, D&C states that there is a work around if the wife doesn't consent, and frames her as the sinner!

"Also they keep making the point that as long as polygamy is between consenting adults then it’s fine." Yeah, except for the teensy-weensy fact that polygamy was against the law of the land and of the LDS church. As the LDS historian Todd Compton wrote: "The marriage to the Lawrence sisters became public knowledge when William Law, Joseph's second counselor in the First Presidency, became alienated from the prophet......On May 23 he filed suit against the Mormon leader in Hancock County Circuit Court, at Carthage, charging that Smith had been living with Maria Lawrence 'in an open state of adultery' from October 12, 1843, to the day of the suit. In response, Smith flatly denied polygamy in a speech delivered on May 26: '[The charges against me are false].....What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.....[I can prove them all perjurers.]' As polygamy was illegal under US law, Smith had little choice but to repudiate the practice." (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, pp. 476-477.) Law couldn't have filed charges against Smith for polygamy and adultery if those activities hadn't been illegal. Duh. In fact, Mormon polygamy was never legal anywhere they practiced it, including in Utah territory.

TECHNICALLY, (since this seems to be both a pass for some & fail for others), what is the difference between "consensual polygamy" for the brethren & plain ol' nasty "con- sensual sex" for those they hold themselves as qualified to judge?

It has me wondering why Smith was tarred and feathered, and later killed by an angry mob. You must wonder why they did such things?.

Sounds like a lot of them weren't happy about what he was doing.

I think the backfire has already begun!

Thank you kindly!

It's interesting to me how members are so quick to dismiss someone's opinion if they left the church. "Yeah well he left the church so his testimony isn't reliable." I literally cannot tell you how many times I've heard that exact phrase throughout my life growing up in the religion

A lot of these Mormon apologists argue that it wasn't unusual for a man in his 30s to marry a teenage girl in those days. But what they can't get through their thick skulls is that it was never legal or proper for a man in his 30s WHO ALREADY HAS A WIFE AND CHILDREN to "plural marry" another woman OF ANY AGE. "Plural marriage" was never legal at any time when the Mormons practiced it, and it was against the canonized laws of the LDS church the entire time Joseph Smith practiced it. In fact, the section of the D&C which prohibited polygamy remained in that volume until 1876.

Seems that way!!

Young married much older women were based on financial many of these women were very wealthy. Smith did the same thing nothing new.

The problem is that many of these women in court and in private diaries admitted to having sexual relations with him. The 14 year old girl wrote about it she was torn and did not want to be with Smith. They didn't read in sacred loneliness where these women recount their sexual relationships with Smith. They testified to this in a court of law.

Thanks!!! I’m sure there is a reason it was a limited series 😂

@@NEMOTHEMORMON I'm honestly astounded the script cleared for airing. Nobody bothered to do a scrap of research into counter arguments or substantiation.

I don’t know if it’s because they think the youth (at whom this was targeted) are so devoid of critical thinking that they would swallow it, or if it’s because they just gave Kwaku way too much rope!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON he's so vapid and thinks because he can say fifty words where ten matter, he's right. And yeah, they do a clear disservice to the target audience, you're completely correct

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Dittos. Those guys' target audience is young, naive, uninformed Mormons.

Yep, imagine having to watch this multiple times to prep!!!

Glad you have come to the truth!

Not every woman whom Joseph Smith propositioned went along with him or defended him. Several prominent ones were Nancy Rigdon, Martha Brotherton, Sarah Pratt, and Jane Law.

Thank hou very much! I have another video saved and will at some point in future cover that one asiel, maybe to celebrate a subscriber milestone! Thanks for watching!

Fair Mormon was instructed to take them down. Now they have a "new" show that may or may not be funded by the church. It's very mean spirited and very "bro" culture. It's not scripted like t.i.t.s, just them being very argumentative about the same stuff. Calling exmo's "victim Olympians", boomers ruining the church, John Delhin is Mormon Voldemort, etc.

I'm so glad, cheers for watching!

Actually, polygamy wasn't the reason the Mormons were run out of Ohio, Missouri, or Illinois. The primary reason was that the Mormons tried to take over the areas they settled in and drive all non-Mormons out. Also, the Mormons were "land pirates." They stole property from non-Mormons everywhere they went. In fact, the Mountain Meadows Massacre in Utah territory was an example of that culture of institutional theft. A former member of Joseph Smith's secret "Council Of Fifty" explained why the Mormons were run out of Illinois in 1846: "While the Mormons were rapidly increasing in numbers and daily increasing their power and wealth, the country around was suffering from a succession of robberies almost without parallel in the annals of crime. Stock of every description and goods of all kinds were constantly taken, and all in the vicinity trembled lest they, like their neighbors, might be stripped of their all without a hope of restoration or revenge. The offenders were frequently tracked in the direction of Nauvoo, and sometimes, though rarely, the property was recovered, but in no case could the perpetrators of the crime be arrested and brought to justice. In case of an arrest at Nauvoo the accused were immediately released by the city authorities, and the cry of 'persecution against the Saints' raised, effectually drowning the pleas for justice of the injured, and the officer forced to return and tell the tale of defeat. This done, the fugitive found a safe shelter under the widespread wings of the Mormon leaders, and laughed at pursuit." ("The Banditti of the Prairies," Edward Bonney, U. of Oklahoma Press, pp. 15-16.)

Great point!

True, and that fact led directly to Joseph Smith's death.

Yes, these boys are plutonium in the churchyard

Bless your heart. Have you tried a Non-jst Bible? That would give you a fairly decent start at just NT truth to relieve your mind/heart from zombifying religion. I am old. And "on spectrum." I am still trying to "recover.". Didn't begin til 50+. Best to you.

My pleasure!

Cheers!

And not at all entertaining. Idiocy

Don't be embarrassed. Be mad that you were lied to by church leaders and scholars.

@@randyjordan5521 Everyone lies. I don't begrudge the church for being dishonest.

@@isaac0079 LOL. One of the questions in the LDS temple recommend interview is "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?" If the church as an institution is not honest re: its founding, its history, and its practices, the church is not in a moral position to judge any of its members' honesty.

Great job! Please keep the videos coming. I’m so embarrassed for all Mormons who defend polygamy. As a woman, I know it’s definitely NOT from God.

Leah Humberstone Thanks, make sure you subscribe so you know when the next one lands. Glad you liked it!

@William Stilgoe It's on its way!

Thanks!

Do you suppose he would have any success at these wards?

I came basically to say this. Jeremy was not protesting polygamy, per se, but pointing out the inconsistencies between the stated doctrine of the church and polygamy as actually practiced by Joseph, who all of all people should have gotten it right if he was a prophet of God.

Cheers for clarifying!

Brilliant insight, thank you!

You got it!

That’s an excellent point, cheers!

Lee was actually several pegs down the line of authority of people who were responsible for the MMM. The man ultimately responsible for the incident was Brigham Young, who held a war council with 12 southern Indian chiefs a week before they attacked the wagon train. In that council, Young told the chiefs that they could have all the cattle that were heading to California on "the south route," which was the route that the emigrants were traveling on at that very moment. Apostle George A. Smith traveled to southern Utah to whip up the local Mormons against the emigrants. Stake presidents William Dame and Isaac Haight outranked Lee on the scene of the crime, and they gave the orders.

Their videos were deleted by the church sponsored apologist organisation which funded them, yeah.

Brigham Young told Zina's legal husband Henry that because she had been sealed to Joseph Smith, she now belonged to him for eternity, and that Henry "will have to go and find yourself another wife." Young said in a sermon that part of the law of the priesthood was that if a woman desired a man who ranked higher in the church, she could leave him and be sealed to the higher ranking man. That's how Zina became sealed to Brigham. So, Mormon polygamy was really just wife-swapping.

Thank you! You're right, they would be easy to dismiss, were it not for the damage they do!

Cheers!

Will do! Thanks for Watching!

Because polygamy was designed by men I suppose...

Because their vaginas would be demolished?

Many religious people were very superstitious and gullible back then.

I don’t care if husbands were ok with Joseph marrying their wives. There would need to be consent of the woman (currently married and also a bride?) as well. What is this? A gentleman’s agreement? OMG!! Most of what these yahoos say is excusing the bad behavior, ie the CES Letter is telling the truth, but here’s why it doesn’t matter.

@@kimanderson9380 agreed! Even Emma's "concent" was coerced. Joe was a sleezeball by modern and his own time's standards.

"Asshattery" LOL. I wonder, what kind of woman would consent to marry that Kwaku dude? Eww.

Thank you!

I would be very surprised if any woman ever had sex with Kwaku.

You’re terrible.

And then Orson became such a fanatic about polygamy that his legal wife Sarah left him and the church.

@@randyjordan5521 I know! Sometimes O wonder how we take any of this stuff too seriously? It’s like a day time soap opera but the Lords true church?

@@Sayheybrother8 Having been born and raised Mormon, I took it seriously because the truth about Mormon history had been kept from me. I had to learn the truth from sources other than the church.

@@randyjordan5521 and in what other parts of our lives do we dismiss a person or orgs active omission of truth to create a better story or “faithful” rendition of events? We put CEO’s in prison for misreporting their numbers to make they’re companies look stronger in the financial world. An argument could be made that the mis reporting of membership numbers and finances or foundational beliefs of a tax exempt organization could be worth review.

Hmmmm, seems legit...

I agree. I would rather mormons be serious and conservative, than try to be trendy and "with it." It's just not them, and I find their attempts to be cool, really cringeable.

Will do!

Just setting something up! Will let you know when it’s sorted!

I wasn't aware of her, got sources, I'd be interested to learn more!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives I know it is just Wikipedia, but Fairmormon could mention that she could be his wife, but it is not certain. The problem with their show and Gospel Topics Essays is they only answer questions that are asked directly and try not to reveal any additional information.

Yeah, if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, he should have been able to foresee that his sexual habits would get him killed.

That's one theory, based on testimony from the time.

Cheers!

I’ll take a look, cheers!

Great point, thanks!

R2 D2 thanks! More incoming, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss me!

Hahaha! Great point!

But is the thing immoral if it's against the law of the land and of the church that you're the founder and president of? The church law that you personally cited when someone asked you if your church allowed the practice of polygamy?

@@randyjordan5521 Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure that I understand your question, but I'm going to take a stab at it. If I've missed the point, just let me know. I don't think that the factors you listed are the reason why Mormon polygamy was immoral. I think the underlying acts of deception are immoral that you infer are immoral. Mormon polygamy was immoral because of the way it subjates women, harms the children in the unions, and disenfranchises the men who do not or cannot participate (and a bunch of other reasons we could get into). Joseph's lying about it was immoral. But Joseph's lying about it didn't make the polygamy immoral. It was his other practices that did that.

@@perryekimae Polygamy is illegal because of what you noted: it subjugates women, and also threatens the foundation of society, which is the family organization. If Joseph Smith's polygamy practice had been moral, he needn't have lied about it.

@@randyjordan5521 I agree with your last sentence. I kinda disagree with your first though. The idea that the same people who maintained the ownership of other human beings as a legal practice made polygamy illegal for moral reasons, or that it was made illegal because those men who disenfranchised women cared about the subjugation of women... it just doesn't track for me. Rather, it gives far too much credit to a political institution that is notorious for being on the wrong side of moral arguments. I think it's much more simple: polygamy made some repressed powerful men feel icky, so they criminalized it. That fits the pattern, honestly. If Joseph had practiced ethical polyamory, even if that practice was not legal, I don't think it would be the shelf-breaker that polygamy is. Had there been actual consent, no weird age gaps, etc., even if the practice was illegal and Joseph publicly lied, I just don't think it would cause so many people to leave the church. It's the sliminess and the depravity of it that seems to get people. I also think your point about polygamy undermining the family structure needs to be workshopped. Family organization and its role in the larger community is nebulous, malleable, and always changing. With that in mind, it's difficult, if not unreasonable, to use that as a justification for criminalizing a behavior. Joseph's polygamy should have been illegal because it was depraved, harmful, and without the consent of many of its participants. The reasons why it was actually made illegal were most likely much less noble than that. Same end, I suppose, but I would hesitate to give lawmakers much credit for it.

If you check out my later videos, I hope my editing has improved somewhat!