I was 62, and Primary President at the time, the rock in hat fueled my intense study and exit from a church that lied to me for 62 years.

I found out about the rock in the hat a year and a half ago. I am now out of the church but it continues to torment me. I’m now in a mixed faith marriage and being scrutinized by my family. Never understood why exmormons we often quite angry, now I know.

I learned about the seer stone in his hat this past summer. I felt betrayed when I discovered all I had been taught was a lie. Just makes me sick to know all the time and money I gave up to a Church of lies.

My mom had the audacity to say that I didn’t know about the rock and the hat because I didn’t study hard enough. It’s like math teachers saying 2+2=5 and then burn the real math book. Then when you see the real answer written under a desk they say it was there all along and you just needed to look for it

I first heard about this while on my mission in 1997. I remember an atheist gentleman talking about it on his doorstep. I told him he was being given bad information to keep him from the truth. About 7 year’s ago I found out he had the truth!

My LDS husband didn’t know about the seer stone until a few weeks ago after I read the Gospel Topics Essay on the subject. He served a full mission, got perfect attendance all four years of seminary and has been a member for 31 years... In the Gospel Topics Essay, the Church says the terms ‘urim & thummim’ and ‘seer stone’ are used interchangeably, which seems so wrong.

I learned about the stone and the hat while watching South Park. You can learn more by watching 22 minutes of South Park than attending seminary and institute for 8 years

To answer the question of when did I find out, I found out when I was watching a video by Telltale that went over the South Park episode that someone else mentioned in the comments. But I took the whole video as anti lies from Satan because I was still a kid that didn’t know about the world. I never really believed the episode of south park either, but I eventually came around and rewatched the video and realized how stupid and indoctrinated I was in the past.

Great job as always. Because you asked: I learned about the rock-in-hat on my mission in the 1990's and was told, in no uncertain terms, it was anti-mormon propaganda. The admission that the story was true two decades later wasn't the worst part. The fact the church had, in its possession, the stone wasn't the worst part. For me, the worst part was when apologetics started to claim that they had ALWAYS taught the rock in the hat. I tend to think Orwell references are overused, but to me, this is being told we were always at war with Eastasia.

The Mormon Church is so good at “bait and switch” when it comes to the truth.

I was 46 when I found out about the rock and the hat, polygamy, polyandry, Book of Abraham issues, etc. Never knew about the gospel essays till late 2018. So upsetting to realize that we were all lied to. I hope the current missionaries are teaching the truth and not the lies I was told in my late teens!

I learned about the seer stone at BYU after I got home from my mission. I literally thought it was an anti-Mormon lie and was shocked that the “anti-Mormons” were more honest than my church was about its history.

I discovered last year via KZfaq. Although excommunicated over 40 years ago and having had nothing to do with the church since then the torrent of information on the internet fascinates me

I was 42 when I learned about the rock in the hat. I was born in the church, served a mission to Hong Kong and was active my entire life up to age 42. I had already decided to stop going to church over personal issues with the Book of Mormon and discovered the rock in the hat in the CES letter. I decided to ask all of my immediate family and anybody I knew within the church about how the book of Mormon was translated. Not a single person mentioned a rock and a hat, every one of them talked about the U&T and the golden plates. It isn't that a rock and a hat is any less believable than reading glasses from God and golden plates, it's that the church actively suppressed the information out of likely embarrassment. When the leaders of the church can't follow one of the basic tenets of the religion, honesty in your dealings with your fellow man, they cannot be trusted to be God's mouthpiece.

I am 46, born and raised in the church. Served in over 5 Primary presidencies for over 20 years. I first found out JS used the rock in the hat method 4 years ago.

I found out a year and a half ago when I left the church. I also found out that reformed Egyptian was ever a thing. So glad God lead me to the truth. Great job Nemo.

Oh it was a shock to say the least! I was born into the church, attended seminary, listened to every general conference and NEVER heard about the seer stone & hat. It was never discussed. I was a member back in the ‘80s & ‘90s and it most definitely was never revealed to me. It’s sad. I would rather the truth had been shown in it’s entirety. If the church is so true then why try to hide or shade over the true facts of the religion? I never understood that.

Hello, I just discovered your channel a few days ago and I absolutely love it. I am a former member living in the United States in southwest Virginia. I didn’t discover that Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat until I was about 17 and I saw a South Park episode making fun of the translation story. My family history can be traced back to the founder of primary, Aurelia Rogers. It’s quite crazy hoe little I still knew growing up.

I found out about the aRock Hat method from I believe the South Park episode. I was already out of the church and thought it was a bit weird but set it aside. It was a year or two ago that I came across the news the church had published images of the seer stone and I had my wtf moment. Doublet so when Nelson actually did an interview with the rock and the hat and then it was ‘OMG they’re admitting it.’

I was 52. Baptized at 15, mission, BYU, temple marriage. Served in pretty much every capacity in the ward. Taught and was taught in young men's, Sunday school, seminary, priesthood, etc etc. But never ever EVER was taught once how it actually happened. Incredibly frustrating to learn about the misdirection. Now am slowly learning about the REST OF THE STORY, if I may insert Paul Harvey's words.

I didn’t learn about the seer stone until after I left the church in late 2017. I read the CES Letter after I stopped believing, and that’s when I learned about how Joseph Smith actually claimed to have translated it. The first I heard about the claim was in South Park, but I vehemently denied it until late 2017.

I learned about the rock and the hat from my brother who learned it from South Park I believe. This was around 2005. I really wasn't sure I believed it, or even if it was true if it was a big deal. I didn't realize the implications (that he believed in magic).

I found out about the stone in the hat as a teenager from south park :P I immediately ran down to my Mum who unintentionally gaslighted me and I'm sorry to say that I just took it on the chin and ran with it... I also found out about scientology beliefs through south park as well, and I know that some scientologists were "enlightened" if you like, through watching the show in much the same way.

I learned about the rock in the hat after reading the CES letter. I grew up in the church, went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead, went to seminary and sang all the songs. Never had I ever heard about or seen depictions representing this truth of how the BOM was translated. My mom had never heard of this either and she has been an active life long member of 73years. This was definitely not something taught by my LDS community or family or extended family or friends. It was shocking and disappointing to learn about the truth. I think the most disturbing thing is that when the truth came out so many of my family and friends would not call it for what it was, we were ALL lied to. I think my mom said “ she must have know about this at some point?” She is actually blaming herself for not teaching me this about the translation. She would rather take the blame than put the blame on the church leaders. To admit they lied, for years and always knew the real truth, would be wrong. She needs to sustain (believe in them to never lead her astray)her leaders to keep her temple recommend. She always tells me that we are not ment to know everything now on earth and one day we will understand. Is this a common response others get when bringing up the lies of the church with others? It kind of makes me mental when taking a ride on this merry-go-round. Can anyone relate?

I learned about the rock in a hat in high school thanks to a friend mentioning the South Park episode. I thought it was an anti-Mormon lie. Then I looked it up. I still went on a mission, but that was the first issue that sat on my shelf.

My dear friend just gifted me a copy of the seer stone as it was now shown to the membership. He accurately painted a regular stone like the “special, authentic stone” then put a small HodPoged picture of Joseph Smith!!! It’s fantastic! Best gift ever! Right up there with Kevin, the taint. 😂🎉❤

Learned about it some 6 years ago when I was a serious investigator. I did exactly what my missionaries told me not to do: went to Google and KZfaq to learn about the Church. Needless to say, I never got baptized. It wasn't that I believed what they had related as fact: I just wanted to know the real story behind the mythology. What I found was a lot of serious problems that went beyond not buying into the founding myths. I was honest with my missionaries about why I no loqqnger wanted to join and suggested they find out the real history of their religion. They were so sad to lose a "golden prospect" - their words - but later I found out one of them ended up leaving the church shortly after he returned from his mission. As I said, I never really bought into the narrative, but the LDS people, on the other hand, were wonderful and seemed to have created such an ideal community. I was honestly surprised to learn most professed to believe wholeheartedly in the founding narrative that I had found literally incredible. I remain fascinated by Mormonism from a cultural/anthropological standpoint. It's extremely rare to be so close in time to the foundation of a successful religious movement - and the phenomenon of religion and religious history have long been passionate interests of mine.

Three points: 1) The church's current definition of seer is very different from the Book of Mormon definition. Mosiah 8:13-17 clearly states that a seer by definition uses a seer stone. 2) The church's video implies that the seer stone was only used for "looking for lost objects" and for translating the Book of Mormon. This is misleading, because the early revelations and the translation of John's parchment (D&C 7) were also received through the seer stone. 3) The seer stone was only referred to as Urim and Thummim starting in 1833. During the time it was actually in use, it was not referred to as Urim and Thummim. They started calling it that in an attempt to make the connection between Joseph's practice and Biblical precedent. Only modern scholarship doesn't bear out the idea that the Biblical Urim and Thummim were at all similar to Joseph's seer stone. They seem to have been stones used to determine God's will, not to receive entire books of scripture.

The stones were not just normal stones, I cannot believe how they gloss over that......they were very important to Joseph. He went back to Sally Chase to go and get a specific stone he used for treasure digging. Plus the "interpreters" were supposedly buried with the plates. These were not your normal everyday stones. You're the best Nemo! Love your analysis.

If the urim and thummim were provided why did he need the rock in the first place?

I first heard of a seer stone when the church came out about it in 2015? Or 2016? I can’t remember. I’ve been a member my entire life (35 years) and served a mission. Took religious classes at BYU and graduated seminary as a teenager. Never ever heard of a seer stone. Didn’t realize what the seer stone was actually used for until my faith crisis last fall. Changes the narrative a bit doesn’t it?

i was in my early 20s when i first read about seer stones. i was talking about things with my sister in my 30s. when i was 35 i read shadow and reality and that's when my shelf finally came crashing down. mormons are never at a loss to find ways to prop up their fairy tale religion. did you miss anything? treasure seeking revelation in the d&c, white stone given to everyone and earth a giant seer stone (d&c), the name gazlem (gaze) in d&c and b/m, russell nelson quotes address all believers in christ in the ensign about rock in the hat, d&c and other scriptures changed with fast and furious wild abandon to help hide the truth.

I am a convert... almost thirty years ago.. I remember my dear mother saying things to me that at first I defended the church and said she was wrong... I now understand.. why the church is labeled a cult by other churches, I also just found out about the rock and hat method two years ago, not to mention Joseph and polygamy wasn't exactly as I was told...after Joseph died women would seal themselves to him... Both of these items would have been enough I don't think I would have joined. Not that it was easy, I investigated it several times... I thought I received a message from God that it was true...uumm maybe not.. maybe wanted it to be.. yes, I've made some very nice people, had nice experiences... But, I didn't marry and have children.. always wondered if my church membership had something to do with it.. There's other things I think about now..like how are we going to be together with our families and with God and Jesus..if we reach exhalation and have our own world? Found out about the Book of the Hebrews too.. it's themes often relate to the BofM...the author happens to have been pastor of the same church Oliver C attended and was published before BofM. We know, often admitted, the Joseph smith jr and family were storytellers, fortune hunters, most people warn those kind of people are often dishonest and not trustworthy. Word of wisdom...was optional, until prohibition. They say Bible true but has disclaimer as long as translation ok..often said not as trusting..well to test it for about 8,9 months now I've been attending a local synagogue's Torah ( what they call book that makes up our old testament).. guess what... Pretty much the same as the King James bible.. words might not be exact, but meaning same! Also why would Jesus have allowed the Bible changed to remove temple ordinances, exhalation etc? Even if we're removed why would he wait until the 1800s to fix it?? Why doesn't the church make sure it's new converts know everything..even the temple ordinances so much secrecy...yes we know sacred not secret kind of convenient... And what I never realized.. Jesus and the atonement only get you to the lowest kingdom..the rest you have to earn... Well that's all I'm writing for now...

I learned about the rock in a hat method in 2006 from historians - not those ridiculous apologists or the church itself. Good work again Nemo.

At 1:10 - they used to use Joseph (in Egypt)'s diving cup as one of the examples of objects used to seer in the 1920s when they were trying to normalize seer stones to members. It was included in the Sunday school lessons for over a decade (1920-1936). Evidently this example has fallen out of favor.

The image from 7:10 is from a children's book published in 2002. Of course they show the golden plates. The new narrative with the seer stone wasn't introduced until 2015.

I was batized a Mormon in 1971 and remained a member until over a year ago, then resigned my membership. Not once during church were we ever told about the peepstone in a hat story. We were shown the false illustration of Smiths (alleged) translation and told the he did it "by the power of God". This was yet one of the countless points of sanitized church history that have them scrambling to be reproduced in recent essays. The god of Mormonism appears to be a recidivist flip flopper.

7:42 - "Joseph used both the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone at different times during the translation process". DANG. They just failed to mention that the "urim and thummim" or spectacles was only used pior to loosing the 116 pages. ALL of the current BOM was translated with the seer stone. The church knows this. Larry Morris from the JSP project has clearly stated this.

So did JS not use the Gold plates to write the BoM? (I've been less active awhile) so he looked in a hat and then sribed. So the church is changing heaps since I've been away.

Did Moses use the staff to trick people into paying him money to find them buried treasure?

I wonder if the fact that the plates were never seen by physical eyes and that they are only spiritual would play into this somehow. Love your videos, Nemo!

Even years after I left the church, I saw South Park with the rock in the hat and I thought "That's just exaggeration for comedic effect." I still didn't realize it was part of the history until years later.

Shamefully, I only found out about the seer stone in the last few years...

Image at 7:02 like you said shows none of the tools used and added two things he didn’t need like uncovered plates and a candle. They say the seer stone glowed like a cellphone in the hat and stay illuminated until he got the translation correct. It’s sad they’re going to blame the “artist’s interpretation” and gaslight the next generation, like the current, when they say they weren’t told the true history.

What he was doing was channeling. He was a skryer. The Bible warns to avoid those who peep and mutter. He was doing this to try to earn money before his whole religion thing. He called it the seer stone to try to gain credibility. I feel betrayed by Joseph's many lies, and then by the many lies of every so called prophet that followed him. I grieve for my family that remains Mormon.

Back when the joseph smith papers were made public and in the ensign around that time included a picture of this brown striped rock as a TBM I was TOTALLY OK with this. It made sense to me and I accepted it without blinking. I didn't even take a moment to consider the change in narrative was significant BECAUSE I had a TESTIMONY that he was a TRUE prophet of god. Being anchored with this testimony I was even able to be OK with the church now openly admitting Joseph was a polygamist. I thought "IT'S ABOUT TIME!" "WHY WAS THIS KEPT UNDER WRAPS" I also felt it irrelevant because I had a TESTIMONY. I KNEW the church was TRUE. My testimony was an inoculation to any threats.

If I’ve studied correctly, the word SEER in Smith’s day had nothing to do with the same term used in the Old Testament. A seer WAS a person who used a rock or stone in a hat to find treasure or objects of value. There were other seers in Smith’s day yet they are not considered religious Mormon prophets. Why not? The answer to me is easy: these individuals were not considered religious. They were only known as money seekers claiming to find treasure with their rocks and hats. To try and build a believable bridge of using objects provided by God from unrelated biblical accounts shows the premeditated lies concocted by the Mormon Church’s leaders over the last 200 years. Such evil…such intent.

I joined the church in 1975 and served a mission from 1976-1978. I never learned about the “rock in the hat” translation until a non-member told me in 2018. I disputed that story and said that it was anti Mormon propaganda. Only after researching the work from Fawn Brody, Grant Palmer, Dan Vogel and podcasts in 2022 did I learn the truth. My wife and I resigned our membership in 2023.

What have Egyptologists said about those characters from the gold plates?

South Park is when I learned the stone in the hat translation.

I learned about the rock in a hat method in 2023 - after 50 years as a true believing member.😳

Suggested Reading (y'know, by some random viewer whose avatar is Dr. Nick from The Simpsons:) Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomsky.

I learnt about the seer stones well after being baptized. It was one of many things that I was not told about. Missionaries are taught to teach half the truth

As a child in the RLDS ( CofC ) it was readily discussed in my family

This for me is a major shelf item, primarily because I taught and bore testimony for two years regarding a literal translation of golden plates, this was the narrative that I was taught as a missionary to teach. As we learn in this video, that narrative is completely false. The church was and is totally okay with teaching this false narrative Honest in your dealings with your fellow men Looks like our profits and apostles need to have their temple recommends taken away

I've recently been reading the book _By Means of the Urim & Thummim_ by James W Lucas and Jonathan E Neville, which argues that the stone in the hat theory isn't reliable and directly contradicts many other sources, especially those of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. I don't think Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, and a more thorough analysis of the historical records seems to indicate such in my opinion. Ironically, I think the Church had it more right before they adopted the seer stone theory and depictions.

Although produced by bureaucrats on the Church payroll, the video cited by Nemo is completely inaccurate with respect to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith and his primary scribe Oliver Cowdery repeatedly and consistently testified that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates using the Nephite interpreter device (sometimes called the Urim and Thummim) which was deposited in the Hill Cumorah with the plates. Critical examination in their full historical context of the accounts of Joseph using a seer stone in a hat to translate shows these accounts to be late, secondhand or otherwise completely unreliable.

Joseph Smith used a morrion crystal. It was a witch's peep stone. Joseph was a charismatic bewitching person as described by people who knew him. He was a warlock. That is why the Book of Mormon is not a history book but an excellent fabrication.

Keep up the good work Nemo

Are you on tiktok nemo?! Would love to see you on there if not!! 🙂

Can't believe millions of us have fallen for this stuff!!! I'm gone......

Unfortunately I was 56.

I found out about the rock in hat thing last year.

Learned it as a kid from parents in early 1970s...

Wow. These Mormon videos not only help invalidate Joseph smith amd the Book of Mormon, it’s some how doing the same for the bible. Comparing seer stones with Moses serpent on a stick. Makes it sound just a crazy and therefore the bible must be made up too. Great job church.

At the age of 45 I learned about the stone in a hat trick, just last year. I haven't been an active member for over twenty years, but was nonetheless surprised. The spin used to buffer the idea is gross. I am endlessly disappointed in the church and it shady false narratives.

Do you think that using inaccurate paintings of the translation in the video is a big deal, since they showed the rock in the hat method later on?

You suggest if Joseph was treasure-digging with his seer stones it was illegal. Your stated reason for this suggestion is that New York law made it illegal to be “pretending to discover where lost goods may be found”. So the law you quote didn’t differentiate between seeking treasure or other lost objects, nor did it make it illegal to be able to find lost objects, only to pretend that you could. You seem to be doing what you accuse the church of doing, e.g. presenting in a biased, incomplete, or inaccurate way so as to persuade others to agree with your view.

There were no plates.

Nemo, I love your content. PLEASE get you wonky eye fixed!

LIke the new logo

When I found out a couple years ago that the seer stone was news to most Mormons, I was baffled. I knew about this years ago. How could they not know? But, I was raised half in the church, half out, and in an era where most people took what the "big brethren" said with a grain of salt. Honestly, you people take them way too seriously. You follow them like lemmings to the edge of a cliff, and when they say "jump", you jump. Then, you complain that you were deceived. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Take responsibility for your own lives. All the scriptures say "Don't trust the arm of flesh." The church used to be a lot of fun, and you really felt a part of it. I hear people talking about the church today, and I can hardly believe we are talking about the same thing. I guess, in reality, we aren't. Somehow I managed to figure this out on my own, that a lot of this was lies and deception. I actually believe in the Holy Ghost. I believe in personal revelation. I listened to it tell me what was true and what was BS. The gospel of Jesus Christ is true, but the church has corrupted it, beyond all recognition. I know it's easier to sit in the back of the bus and let somebody do the driving for you. You can blame the bus driver when he drives you off the cliff. But, it's still your life. Why trust it to somebody who has demonstrably lied to you?

A man sticks his head in a hat, and translates a Bible using magical stones. No small wonder true Christians compare the Book of Mormon with the fairy tale "Jack and the Bean Stalk", where magical beans were the entire theme. The Book of Mormon is just about as reliable as a fairy tale, when we consider the fact that there is no sound archeology that the cities, people, animals, coins, or any other artifact evidence ever existed. Not a sliver of evidence.

this guy is lying. The witnesses reported seeing Joseph Smith using a Urim and Thumim which is two stones in a frame for most of the translation. Later he could use just one stone or a seers stone. He put a stone in a hat because like the urim (which means lights) stone, and the 12 stones of the high priest of Israel, all of which like the urim and thumim were crystal, so the stones would light up. Thus they were used where there was little light or put them in a high hat to block light. Never did Joseph Smith just receive information without a devise to translate. Stones which light up are similar to a cell phone today. Cell phone use a crystal i.e. Silicon chip to transmit info and need to have light blocked to see the words of a text. Hey guy do some better research.

What I would like to know is: What are your religious beliefs or preferences. Most people who go on the internet and try to tear are afraid to put out their own personal belief system. They don't want done to them what they are trying to do to others. They just don't have the "Cajones" to do this since they know someone will try to pick at their own belief system. So I'm goig to ask you flat out. Are you willing to share your own belief system and do a program on it? Heck, you can do it now on this thread! I"d really don't think you will because of the "Cajones" factor!

Best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon yourself and ask God your questions. Men can twist anything from all sides. If the seer stones were of God then dust or moth wouldn’t ever corrupt them. Take everything to God. Read for yourself.

Why did the Church choose THIS gay sounding voice over for this cartoon? They reject gay people in the faith yet feature them in media such as this, I’m confused, who are they trying to appeal to? I found out about the rock in a hat via ‘South Park’