Nietzsche on Heraclitus (Part 4 of 8)

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essentialsalts

essentialsalts

3 ай бұрын

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#nietzsche #philosophypodcast #thenietzschepodcast #history #philosophy #historyofphilosophy #ancientphilosophy #greekphilosophy #heraclitus #thales #anaximander #anaxagoras #empedocles #parmenides #democritus
Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks is one of the more obscure texts in Friedrich Nietzsche’s corpus. There are many good reasons for this: it is unfinished, and ends abruptly; it was never published; and it concerns subject matter that is not as immediately accessible as Nietzsche’s more popular writings. You will not find his major concepts in this work - such as the will to power, or the critique of metaphysics - except insofar as those ideas appear in the background, inchoate, unnamed… not yet fully formed. In Nietzsche’s interpretation of the Pre-Platonic philosophers of Ancient Greece, we find the starting place for his later philosophical career. The inspiration for many of those great ideas, can arguably be found in his exegesis of these extraordinary figures from the Hellenic world, from the 6th to the 4th century BC. In this series we’ll consider Nietzsche’s view of Thales, Anaximander, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Anaxagoras, Empedocles & Democritus.

Пікірлер: 37
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 3 ай бұрын
My personal interpretation of Heraclitus is the following. We memorize some of the properties of a thing, so that after we observe the same properties, we then can call the thing with the same name. Then being is nothing more then recognition, beyond recognition there is only becoming as it is experienced. But if we accept this view, then becoming can no longer be ontologically reduced to being. Traditionally, people thought of becoming as coming to be, ceasing to be or as a transformation of one Typ of being into another. But if becoming is more fundamental then being, then this conceptual reduction can have no ontological weight. Instead first we know becoming by experience, then we create being by recognition and then as creatures that are obsessed with recognizing things, we then try to conceptually reduce becoming to being. And then the metaphysician of being makes the fundamental mistake of taking this conceptual metaphor as some kind of metaphysical truth. The metaphysician then comes to the erroneous conclusion that either being is more fundamental then becoming or that becoming straightforward doesn’t exist.
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 3 ай бұрын
The „same“ property and the „same“ name is here just a resemblance not a identity.
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 2 ай бұрын
@@michaelmcclure3383 In my opinion, the tendency of humans to consider being as more fundamental then becoming tells us more about the nature of their language then the nature of the world. So if we say „becoming exist“ then this does not mean that it is just another type of being, it only means that the grammar of our language prefers to use a word „exist“ which the language relates to the concept of being. Beyond language, I think what also happens is that humans think they can make a snapshot of a single moment and subtract becoming so that they only have pure being. But this is not possible since any snapshot they make is also becoming. It might be a slow barely noticeable becoming but it is still present. So the conclusion that being is inside the snapshot then is based on a faulty assumption. And another thing that should shake our confidence in being is mereology. Beyond such paradoxes like the ship of Theseus, there is also the problem of when exactly a composed object can be said to exist. I personally tend towards mereological deflationism. But this means that there are no objective facts about being beyond our own conception of being. Ergo being can not be fundamental. Do I Continue to be if I am asleep. I would say yes, as long as there are people that have the ability to recognize me. And I mean, even if I am asleep, this just means that I don’t use my ability to recognize at the moment, but I still have the ability. And the fact that If I wake up, I recognize myself would be enough to make me a being even if I am asleep. This is because the fact has a if-condition at the beginning.
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 2 ай бұрын
@@michaelmcclure3383 „Do they exist in any objective sense“. A cheap answer to this question would be to propose a Kantian picture of the world and then we could say that nothing can be said about the Noumena except that it is becoming. But then if we say anything about the Noumena, we would imply that we conceptualize that what is not conceptualized. Another solution would be Idealism, but they take for granted the concept of the mind and the mental. But the mind and the mental is just a artificial category. Our understanding of the world is conditioned by concepts. Our understanding of being and becoming is as a result also conceptual. What I propose is more of a developmental theory. By experience, we first encounter what we later begin to recognize as becoming. By recognition, we then encounter what we now conceptualize as being. Then we recognize becoming, and because the concept of becoming is later formed then that of being, we reduce becoming to being. But if we have encountered what we now recognize as becoming before we encountered recognition itself and if being itself comes from the ability to recognize, then the conceptual reduction of being to becoming can have no ontological weight. So we can not understand becoming without a concept, but we can encounter something we later recognize as becoming. Imagine someone who had never heard of elephants but who for the first time encounters a elephant, later when this person learns what a elephant is, he can now recognize the animal he encountered as a elephant. So instead I want to try the following, I want to tear down the very distinction of objective vs subjective that acts like a great dam which prevents the waters of the noumenal to flow into The Valley of the phenomenal. To try to understand the world without concepts is no understanding at all. It is like ripping the brain outside a body and then asking the body what it thinks of itself. It is like defining a physical quantity by measurement in the absence of any means to measure it. It is like trying to understand something by defining it as that what one doesn’t understand. Both the phenomenal and the noumenal presupposes each other. Once the Noumena is gone, there will be no phenomena to oppose it. Is there being if nobody recognizes, I would say as long as there is the ability to recognize, yes. Does a tree make a sound if nobody hears it, yes as long as there is someone with the ability to recognize what is happening as a sound. What makes being is not so much recognition itself but the ability to recognize.
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 2 ай бұрын
@@michaelmcclure3383 My summary above was before I could read your responses, just in case if it caused confusion. When it comes to Schopenhauer, does he not postulate a world of will beyond. Is our understanding of „will“ not conceptual? Also of what type of will do we talk about? Will as intention, will as a driving force or will as behavior?
@Everywhere4
@Everywhere4 2 ай бұрын
@@michaelmcclure3383 Is the Idea here that beauty causes satisfaction? I must say, I do not consider satisfaction to be a absence of desiring. Satisfaction is a desire to conserve one’s current experience, way of life or even something in the world like a picture or a mountain. If I do not desire something beautiful to be roughly as it is presented to me, then I would feel no emotional response to it. If it where not that way, then it’s destruction would not bother me, except maybe if I would find the destruction or what comes from it to be even more beautiful, although a sense of sadness might persist. My point is the following: Satisfaction is the will to be. Dissatisfaction is the will to become. The will to be gives one a sense of peace and happiness. Who would not want this for the rest of eternity? So what happens if we take it to the extreme? It will then turn into the will to mediocrity. It is then nothing but the expression of a exhausted creature, licking its wounds. A creature that would rather be a statue then a living being. A creature that would rather not exist at all then to be discontent with something. At that point the will to be negates itself and turns into the will to nothingness. It is a creature that will not resist the will of others, ready to be a servant of someone else’s desires. My point is not „will to be bad, will to become good“. In a more limited form, the will to be can have a revitalizing effect. And if we turn the will to become towards its extreme, it will cause nothing but burnout and therefore it’s own negation exactly like The will to be.
@hatecraft6669
@hatecraft6669 2 ай бұрын
a bit of a different idea but any thoughts on Nietzsche and Black Metal? since I see you are in a metal band anyway. Nietzsche is a pretty common inspiration in the metal community; sometimes tragically misunderstood (as usual xD)
@Dino_Medici
@Dino_Medici 2 ай бұрын
Ur a beast bro you really set the standard
@annibhardwaj6914
@annibhardwaj6914 2 ай бұрын
What a video. The best info on Heraclitus, indeed the world is Vishnu's lila or the Gods play as if a child rearranging a jigsaw puzzle.
@Slamlucifer
@Slamlucifer 3 ай бұрын
Did Nietzsche actually took a look at so many different philosopher. Amazing. Also your voice is very calming
@virtue_signal_
@virtue_signal_ 3 ай бұрын
His voice is smooth as butta. He should pursue a career using it?
@zenden6564
@zenden6564 3 ай бұрын
Yes excellent for bedtime listening 😊
@V1lk4y
@V1lk4y 3 ай бұрын
He has a book called philosophy in the tragic age of Greeks which in where he investigates philosophers before plato he was against plato
@JoeShmowYo
@JoeShmowYo 2 ай бұрын
nietzsche was a philologist so he was trained from a certain historical perspective. it tends to be the case that the great philosophers in history are very well read on philosophy up to and often including their contemporaries.
@fkndead454
@fkndead454 2 ай бұрын
He read pretty much everyone
@TwoDudesPhilosophy
@TwoDudesPhilosophy 3 ай бұрын
Great video!
@innerlocus
@innerlocus 3 ай бұрын
Knucklebones is a game of jacks. 1:30
@LightInTheNight1337
@LightInTheNight1337 Ай бұрын
22:01 Gigachad response
@cheri238
@cheri238 2 ай бұрын
Earth, Wind & Fire 🔥 album Fantasy. ( Just a thought.) This was amazingly awesome.
@willieluncheonette5843
@willieluncheonette5843 2 ай бұрын
What is the message of Heraclitus, the deepest message? ""He does not believe in things, he believes in processes - process is God to him. And if you watch closely, you will see that THINGS don’t exist in the world; everything is a process. In fact to use the word ‘is’ is existentially wrong, because everything is becoming. Nothing is in a state of isness, nothing! You say, “This is a tree.” By the time you say it, it has grown; your statement is already false. The tree is never static, so how can you use the word, is? It is always becoming, becoming something else. Everything is growing, moving, in a process. Life is movement. It is like a river - always moving. Says Heraclitus, “You cannot step in the same river twice,” because by the time you come to step into it the second time, it has moved. It is a flow. Can you meet the same person twice? Impossible! You were here yesterday morning also - but am I the same? Are you the same? Both rivers have changed. You may be here again tomorrow, but you will not find me; somebody else will be here. Life is changing. “Only change is eternal,” says Heraclitus - only change never changes. Everything else changes. He believes in a permanent revolution. Everything is in revolution. It is how it is there. To be means to become. To remain where you are means to move; you cannot stay, nothing is static. Even the hills, the Himalayas, are not static; they are moving, moving fast. They are born, then they die. The Himalayas is one of the youngest mountain ranges in the world, and it is still growing. It has not reached its peak yet, it is very young - every year it grows one foot. There are old mountains whose peaks have been attained; now they are falling down, old, their backs are bent. This is the deepest message of Heraclitus: everything flows and changes… These walls you see around you, every particle of them is in movement. You cannot see the movement because the movement is very subtle and fast. Now physicists agree with Heraclitus, not with Aristotle, remember. Whenever any science reaches nearer to reality, it has to agree with Lao Tzu and Heraclitus. Now physicists say everything is in movement. Eddington has said that the only word which is false is rest. Nothing is at rest, nothing can be; it is a false word, it doesn’t correspond to any reality. “Is” is just in the language. In life, in existence, there is no “is”; everything is becoming. Heraclitus himself, when he says about the river - and the symbol of the river is very, very deep with him - that you cannot step in the same river twice, he also says that even if you do, you are the same and you are not the same. Just on the surface you look the same. Not only has the river changed, you have also changed. It happened: A man came to Buddha to insult him - he spat on his face. Buddha wiped his face and asked the man, “Have you anything more to say?” - as if he had said something. The man was puzzled, because he never expected this type of response. He went away. The next day he came again - because the whole night he couldn’t sleep; he felt more and more that he had done something absolutely wrong, he felt guilty. The next morning he came, fell at Buddha’s feet and said, “Forgive me!” And Buddha said, “Who will forgive you now? The man you spat upon is no more, and the man you were who spat is no more either - so who will forgive whom? Forget about it, now nothing can be done about it. It cannot be undone - finished!… because nobody is there, both parties are dead. What can be done? You are a new man and I am a new man.” This is the deepest message of Heraclitus: everything flows and changes; everything moves, nothing is static. And the moment you cling, you miss reality. Your clinging becomes the problem, because reality changes and you cling. Life moves through one opposite to another. And Heraclitus says this is the secret, the hidden harmony; this is the hidden harmony. He is very poetic, he has to be. He cannot be philosophic because philosophy means reason. Poetry can be contradictory; poetry can say things which philosophers will be ashamed to say - poetry is truer to life. And philosophers just go around and around: they never hit the point in the center, they beat around and around the bush. Poetry simply hits directly. If you want any parallels to Heraclitus in the East, then you will find them in Zen masters, Zen poets, particularly in the poetry known as haiku. One of the great masters of haiku is Basho. Basho and Heraclitus are absolutely close, in a deep embrace; they are almost one. Basho has not written anything in a philosophical way; he has written in small haikus, just three-line, seventeen-syllable haikus, just small pieces. Heraclitus has also written fragments; he has not written a system like Hegel, Kant; he is not a systematizer - just oracular maxims. Each fragment is complete in itself, just like a diamond; each cut to its perfection in itself, no need to be related to another. He has spoken in an oracular way. The whole method of the oracular maxim has disappeared from the West. Only Nietzsche wrote in the same way again: his book, Thus Spake Zarathustra consists of oracular maxims - but since Heraclitus, only Nietzsche. In the East, everybody who has been enlightened has written in that way. That is the way of the Upanishads, the Vedas, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Basho: just maxims. They are so small that you have to penetrate them, and just by trying to understand them you will change and your intellect cannot cope with them. Says Basho in a small haiku: Old pond frog jump in water sound Finished! He has said everything. Pictorial: you can see an ancient pond, a frog sitting on the bank, and… the jump of the frog. You can see the splash, and the sound of water. And, says Basho, everything has been said. This is all life is: An ancient pond… a jump of the frog, the sound of water - and silence. This is what you are; this is what everything is - and silence. The same way Heraclitus talks in his river fragment. First he uses the sounds of a river - autoisi potamoisi; before he says something he uses the sounds of the river, and then he gives the maxim: You cannot step twice in the same river. He is a poet, but no ordinary poet - a poet Hindus have always called a rishi. There are two types of poets. One who is still dreaming and creating poetry out of his dreams - a Byron, a Shelley, a Keats. Then there is another type of poet, a rishi, who is no longer dreaming - he looks at the reality, and out of the reality poetry is born. Heraclitus is a rishi, a poet who is no longer dreaming, who has encountered existence. He is the first existentialist in the West."
@lsobrien
@lsobrien 2 ай бұрын
This channel is in fact ace.
@davidscarafone5995
@davidscarafone5995 3 ай бұрын
Nietzsche makes more sense now
@maxaval1240
@maxaval1240 3 ай бұрын
Brother...the day you do a program on Klossowski's Vicious circle or Bataille's poetic Nietzsche, Ill have a metaphysical orgasm. Keep on rockin dude. , your episodes make my life sweeter.
@untimelyreflections
@untimelyreflections 3 ай бұрын
Klossowski is planned for next season
@ItsGettingNearDawn
@ItsGettingNearDawn 2 ай бұрын
🔥
@leststoner
@leststoner 3 ай бұрын
❤️‍🔥
@tomjmdalton8855
@tomjmdalton8855 2 ай бұрын
amour fati - fate is a becoming a process.
@alecmisra4964
@alecmisra4964 2 ай бұрын
"Why this endless river of becoming?" - Nietzsche. "Nature abhors a vacuum" - Aristotle. Appreciated the amazing passage on ostracism and self banishment by the way. But the problem is, the whole clown show comes after such people Im afraid. It needs its supply!
@ahmedmahmud4238
@ahmedmahmud4238 Ай бұрын
Heraclitus philosophy doesnt exist either, it is just becoming 😂. At the very least heraclitus recognizes that becoming cannot exist in absolute but is dependent upon a being, which he identifies as Logos. Of course, due to the Logos, the fire and river become again, and again, and embody the same shape and properties, which normal mankind recognize as beign. The ability to abstract from the flux the existence of being is a step forward in the cognitive capacity of man. To deny beign, is to deny ourselves our higher cognitive ability and to become blind to thr fact that the same river appears again and again. It is a step backwards. The step backward to a state where mankind cannot create a civilization. You cannot create a civilization based on heraclitus philosophy, you cannot even have a foundation for property rights. Just like Nietszches philosophy, it tries to posit a void at the center of life (no Beign) and therefore makes life meaningless and without purpose. Hence it promotes Nihilism. Nietszche pretends to fight Nihilism, but he is a great instigator of it.😂
@ahmedmahmud4238
@ahmedmahmud4238 Ай бұрын
Hey Heraclitus 😂, you cannot escape your life with the same assinine philosophy twice. ...😂...seriously ...Seriously...
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