Obstruction or Heave the Hawk? When a Broadcast Misinforms its Audience Through Material Omission

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CloseCallSports

CloseCallSports

Күн бұрын

This tale of two calls harkens back to an all-Chicago game from 2007. During the June 24, 2007 Cubs-White Sox game, the White Sox broadcast bashed the umpires, but was it warranted? Article: www.closecallsports.com/2021/...
This is the infamous Cubs-White Sox obstruction play (for the record this is Obstruction Type 2 [OBS B]) since no play was being made on the runner at the time of the obstruction (the ball was still in the outfield).
The video begins with a thorny play and unedited analysis (in potato quality, unfortunately) by the White Sox booth. During the ensuing post-play delay as umpires conferenced, the Sox deemed the play a routine baseball event and simple double play caused by bad baserunning on the Cubs' part.
With two on (R1, R2) and none out, Cubs batter Mark DeRosa had hit a fly ball to the wall in right field. By the time the ball was returned to the infield, Cubs baserunner R1 Angel Pagan seemingly inexplicably was caught up between second and third base, which started a cavalcade of misfortune for the Cubs as batter DeRosa became ensnared in a brief rundown, R2 Felix Pie made an unsuccessful dash for home plate, and the Sox appeared to get a double play out of it: after all, 2B Umpire Ed Rapuano called Pagan out at second and HP Umpire CB Bucknor called Pie out at home.
When umpires broke the conference by awarding the Cubs a bases loaded, none out situation, bewilderment infected the Sox booth. When Crew Chief Joe West ejected White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, analyst Hawk Harrelson turned his ire to West (it wouldn't be the last time, of course). In the end, the White Sox blamed the umpires for missing the play and could not understand the call.
Meanwhile, the Cubs from the very initial play-by-play identified a collision between Pagan and White Sox shortstop Juan Uribe on second base, while the batted ball was still in the outfield. In short order, the proper term "obstruction" made its way onto the airwaves and when showing replays, the illegal collision similarly enjoyed airtime-the broadcast even pointed out that not only did 2B Umpire Rapuano call the obstruction, so too did 3B Umpire Ed Hickox.
In the end, the Cubs educated Chicago sports fans while the Sox did not. The Cubs identified and showed the obstruction while the White Sox did not.
In conclusion, sometimes broadcasts get it right and sometimes not so much. The purpose of this video is to illustrate how sometimes even a TV broadcast with its replays and different cameras can still miss the crucial elements of an entire play and how its analysis to the viewing public can therefore be inaccurate or misleading.
Perhaps the most egregious element of this? The White Sox had a camera angle that would have shown the obstruction, but showed the replay from a point AFTER the obstruction had already occurred. Was this simple negligence or deliberate omission of a material fact?

Пікірлер: 234
@happyfunball3266
@happyfunball3266 2 жыл бұрын
"Missing the crucial element of an entire play" is the definition of Hawk Harrelson's broadcast career.
@joesavary6081
@joesavary6081 2 жыл бұрын
Not unlike Joe West and his umpiring
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@joesavary6081 Joe West got everything right here and Hawk was 100% wrong as usual.
@joesavary6081
@joesavary6081 2 жыл бұрын
I didn't say Joe West was wrong this time , but he is the Hawk of umpires
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@joesavary6081 Joe West is not a bad umpire on the field, it's his reputation for being obnoxious that bothers fans. Hawk is just plain dumb.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@Mike Heathman Not too bad. Worked two games on Sunday with no problems. It's easier for me to work the plate because i don't have to run as much.
@Vaderurn6845
@Vaderurn6845 2 жыл бұрын
Broadcasters misinforming the audience? Why I never heard of such drivel! 😂
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 11 ай бұрын
The stupidity of Hawk is beyond belief.
@linollieum3742
@linollieum3742 2 жыл бұрын
Really good example of how snap judgments do no one any good and you need the whole picture. Mic'd umpires would help, as would not having biased announcers. Announcers have a critical role of informing the audience, and it should have been obvious that something happened, the umpires didn't just say "no, we don't like your double play we're loading the bases" :D
@JayD73
@JayD73 2 жыл бұрын
Just more reason to have micd umps to explain the most confusing rules in sports
@justinmartin9000
@justinmartin9000 2 жыл бұрын
Not all that confusing when you actually know the rules.
@JayD73
@JayD73 2 жыл бұрын
@@justinmartin9000 of course but that’s not your average fan
@justinmartin9000
@justinmartin9000 2 жыл бұрын
@@JayD73 don't forget to include players and coaches
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615 2 жыл бұрын
Guess who's now micd.
@deanwademvpchairman5460
@deanwademvpchairman5460 2 жыл бұрын
Maybe the white Sox guys couldn’t see it because their visual graphics were so crappy😂
@kendog52361
@kendog52361 2 жыл бұрын
I don't know if it was intentional, or not, but from what I saw, the Cubs Announcers saw and was showing what helped their team, and the White Sox Announcers were doing the same, but for the Sox. The problem, of course, is that the Cubs were showing "everything", while the Sox were ignoring a big factor that helped explain everything. If the Sox had simply shown and/or mentioned the collision, even if they dismissed, downplayed it, or otherwise ignored it, that probably would have been fine, but as far as the Sox Announcers seemed concerned, the collision at 2nd Base "never happened".
@1who4me
@1who4me 2 жыл бұрын
Don’t white knight for homer announcers
@billyv321
@billyv321 2 жыл бұрын
The problem with Harrelson was anything that went against the Sox was “wrong” even if the call was correct according to the rules. Brenley and Kasper, the Cubs announcers, were at least able to explain the reasoning behind the call. Harrelson’s already feeble brain just shuts down when the call doesn’t go his teams way.
@nicholascardcorner8266
@nicholascardcorner8266 2 жыл бұрын
Wrong
@austin.draude
@austin.draude Жыл бұрын
If the White Sox were only showing what benefited their team, they're being flat-out dishonest, and that probably falls more to the producers in the truck than it does to Hawk and Wimpy.
@lastdance2099
@lastdance2099 2 жыл бұрын
This was the only time Hawk was ever wrong.... Haha, but seriously, you could make a full-length movie of Hawk getting it wrong.
@bullados
@bullados 2 жыл бұрын
Just one? You could probably make a saga longer than the MCU of Hawk getting it wrong.
@Ghostrider6A
@Ghostrider6A 2 жыл бұрын
Someone give me training on editing software, I’ll create a video about every time Hawk is wrong.
@gil4321
@gil4321 2 жыл бұрын
I think the only time he ever got it right was when he decided to retire.
@dannythurstoniii6307
@dannythurstoniii6307 2 жыл бұрын
Lindsay (or Lindsey not sure on spelling), I really appreciated this video. I would love to see a historical segment done for the channel (particularly in the offseason) where some calls from history are reviewed and see what they got right and what they got wrong. I think of the ARod “slap play” in 2004 that they got right amongst other. I think it would be fun and informative as well.
@rayray4192
@rayray4192 Жыл бұрын
The Armbrister bunt and entanglement with catcher Carlton Fisk would be interesting to review. I think the plate umpire ruling no batter/ runner runner interference and no obstruction was Larry Barnett. 1975 Reds vs Red Sox World Series.
@philmarshall1580
@philmarshall1580 2 жыл бұрын
I've always thought that Ken Harrelson should have been charged the price of admission for the games he called. It's one thing to be a homer but Hawk took it to a whole new level. Great work by the CCS Team though. Good Job Fellas!
@Subangelis
@Subangelis 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk's eyes sure didn't see the whole field, but the 2nd base ump sure saw it.
@violinjoel
@violinjoel Жыл бұрын
Hawk was no homer, he did not see the obstruction, and his producers did not show it on replay. So he had no idea that the play legally stopped at the obstruction, apparently requiring Peay to be put back at third base as if he had never tried to score. The umpires are supposed to put runners on the bases they could have reached if the obstruction never happened, which for Peay is third base, not home plate. I'm sure Harrelson would have agreed with that result if he had only known about the obstruction.
@scottdeakes8494
@scottdeakes8494 2 жыл бұрын
I watched a White Sox broadcast once. It was enough to be embarrassed for the entire White Sox fan base. He was the worst.
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
Harry Carey was the same way, but more drunk. People loved his shenanigans
@brenthooton3412
@brenthooton3412 2 жыл бұрын
That time when you first realize a broadcaster is omitting the crucial part of the picture in order to push a narrative...
@Stoneham64
@Stoneham64 2 жыл бұрын
Kinda like CNN!
@jham9470
@jham9470 2 жыл бұрын
@@Stoneham64 And Fox and News Max.
@gregneedoba3927
@gregneedoba3927 2 жыл бұрын
That whole time Hawk was talking about it I was thinking well there must have been obstruction at some point early on in this play lol it’s not that hard to figure it out even without seeing it on video
@gnjaxon
@gnjaxon Жыл бұрын
Both radio broadcasts and the Cubs TV broadcast picked up on there being obstruction. Hawk was fuming for the rest of the game and hardly spoke. It was quite funny.
@runrin_
@runrin_ 2 жыл бұрын
Another item to be filled under "evidence that crew chiefs need microphones". Thanks for the video.
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615 2 жыл бұрын
Guess who now has microphones.
@raf42
@raf42 2 жыл бұрын
I just want to say that this was a fascinating video, thank you for this analysis!
@Niel2760
@Niel2760 2 жыл бұрын
Gil if you expected Hawk to educate the audience, you don’t know Hawk.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
White Sox announcers are heavily biased towards their team. I can think of one time when they were objective about a close play or sticky situation that needed to be sorted by the umps.
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
@@kenconnelly773 that is false now with Stone on the broadcast
@MH-Tesla
@MH-Tesla 2 жыл бұрын
This was great. After the first half all I could say was that there must have been obstruction somewhere not shown. Otherwise this didn't make sense. Then you show the Cubs side and yup. That's what happened.
@rawhydemusic8620
@rawhydemusic8620 2 жыл бұрын
Correct call 100% once the obstruction is called, everything past that is null and void. You just wait till the play plays itself out
@rawhydemusic8620
@rawhydemusic8620 2 жыл бұрын
@@irish_demon9868 even if the obstructed runner gets thrown out he is safe because of the obstruction.
@rawhydemusic8620
@rawhydemusic8620 2 жыл бұрын
@@irish_demon9868 it is all on the umpires judgement which base he could have made it to without the obstruction
@irish_demon9868
@irish_demon9868 2 жыл бұрын
RawHyde, that's not correct, but is a common misconception. NOT everything past the obstruction is null and void. Otherwise, the play would be called dead as soon as the obstruction occurs. There would be no need for "the play to play out". There are several things that could happen after the obstruction that could stand, including a scenario where the obstructed runner could be out.
@irish_demon9868
@irish_demon9868 2 жыл бұрын
@@rawhydemusic8620 Yes, that is true. But, like I wrote, there are other scenarios after the obstruction occurred that could stand, including one where the obstructed runner is out. If the runner in front of the Pagan had not stopped at third, but had tried to score, Pagan could have continued to third likely exempt from being thrown out due to the obstruction. If he had then stopped at third but decided to break for home and was thrown out there, that out would stand. It would not be "null and voided" by the obstruction.
@jumperguy9867
@jumperguy9867 11 ай бұрын
I watched this game as it happened. The Umpires got it right. Guillen was tossed because he was frustrated with what had happened. He agreed with the umpires. He told Joe West, "Please just throw me out." That's why he didn't get upset about being ejected.
@billsmith5166
@billsmith5166 Жыл бұрын
So... what was the correct call? It doesn't seem that the baserunners were correctly placed based on the effect of the obstruction.
@magicizaproblem
@magicizaproblem 2 жыл бұрын
Great clip Gil!
@KevinQuinn81
@KevinQuinn81 2 жыл бұрын
Yet another perfect example of why the umps need to be mic'd up.
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615 2 жыл бұрын
Guess who's mic'd up
@kevinmiller6380
@kevinmiller6380 2 жыл бұрын
I wonder if Vin Scully would have said "BS" on the air?
@runrin_
@runrin_ 2 жыл бұрын
No chance. He'd explain the play quickly and accurately while continuing a story about an obscure player's background and making them come to life in your living room. I'm not even a Dodgers fan, but I dearly miss Vin. "Iiit's tiiime for Dodgerrs Baseballl!"
@jimbrooks9996
@jimbrooks9996 2 жыл бұрын
This video is Exhibit A of the incompetence of Hawk Harrelson the broadcaster. How he had a job for as long as he did -- well, it boggles the mind.
@markhensley6271
@markhensley6271 2 жыл бұрын
"You gotta be 'bleeping' me!"
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
Joe West needs a rest...
@ronpeacock9939
@ronpeacock9939 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk I found very often missed stuff and classic star player that they don't know the rules... I figured that OBS was involved but the Chisox crew never mentioned it... that's huge... when they made the play on the OBS runner... killed the play by rule and everyone is safe....Great job by the umpire crews on this one... Joe West may be maligned... but in this case, they got it right.
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
Joe West historically has been a good ump, but has made his fair share of questionable rulings with an asinine attitude to rub many the wrong way. Being on the same crew as Angel Hernandez didn't help things.
@mbritton1984
@mbritton1984 2 жыл бұрын
Pretty amazing that the Sox broadcast team simply choose to ignore the major incident that changed the entire event.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
That's typical of Hawk Harrelson. I tend to believe he is somewhat brain damaged.
@BB--13118
@BB--13118 2 жыл бұрын
But Hawk saw everything! 🙄
@donaldthomas7070
@donaldthomas7070 2 жыл бұрын
Because he watched it like a Hawk.
@kinkaid7477
@kinkaid7477 2 жыл бұрын
Lol,
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@donaldthomas7070 Yeah, a blind hawk.
@markwhite9689
@markwhite9689 2 жыл бұрын
Umpires need to be micd to explain just like in football
@a_doggo
@a_doggo Жыл бұрын
Good lord, baseball is amazing. We've probably got a rule comment specifically for Lou in this situation. We got all the rules in baseball! Great coverage, thank you!
@carterbaranyk8298
@carterbaranyk8298 10 ай бұрын
Shouldn’t time have been called once a play had been made on the obstructed runner? Like instead of calling the guy out at second shouldn’t time have been called and the act nullified or am I miss understanding something
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 14 күн бұрын
When type 2 obstruction occurs, the ball stays live until the play is over and then umpires must determine what the outcome would be had obstruction not occurred.
@BDCogar
@BDCogar 2 жыл бұрын
As a White Sox fan I was really glad to see Hawk go. He’s always been a homer, which I don’t mind to a certain extent. But man, did he get crotchety toward the end of his in-booth career. Jason Benetti is a welcome and well selected improvement.
@bobscott7127
@bobscott7127 2 жыл бұрын
This is what happens when announcers become glorified cheerleaders and (literally, in this case) see only one team on the field. Ken Harrelson obviously aspired to be the next Harry Caray, and succeeded, by constantly cheerleading and making a lot of noise, in lieu of paying attention to and describing what was actually going on. Do you think that Vin Scully would have missed this? No way!
@aboxofbroken8tracks983
@aboxofbroken8tracks983 2 жыл бұрын
Anyone who thinks Harry Caray was a cheerleader should watch some White Sox games he called. He and Piersall regularly ripped their own guys a new one. He lost some, but not all of that when he got to the Cubs.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@therevolvingmonk The difference is that Scully would not have immediately began berating the umpires for making the correct call.
@angc214
@angc214 Жыл бұрын
It was confusing because initial video for both sides didn't show obstruction. When the umpires started putting runners back on bases I figured out what was going on.
@photodave219
@photodave219 2 жыл бұрын
That’s absolutely crazy. Also… they got it right.
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
I am actually surprised Harrelson wasn't actually tossed from a game at some point, the way he goes off sometimes. That said, it's pretty clear (and you can see the 2nd base umpire do it) that the play was killed AT SOME POINT for some degree of obstruction or the like.
@Ghostrider6A
@Ghostrider6A 2 жыл бұрын
Play was killed after the tag on Pie due to type B obstruction at 2nd.
@danielplotkin1586
@danielplotkin1586 2 жыл бұрын
The umps can't hear the announcers, so Hawk could say whatever he wanted about them.
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
@@Ghostrider6A Right, the point I was making is that, by the end of the play, you can see the 2B Umpire calling time
@UzzyBooboo
@UzzyBooboo 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk never thought the Sox did any wrong. Many broadcasters are biased towards their team, Hawk was 100% biased towards the Sox and it rubbed off on Stone when he joined.
@livefreeordiehardkor
@livefreeordiehardkor 2 жыл бұрын
I got nothing against the revolving door of iconic Cubs players that I love to cheer for that Marquee is using right now but I always loved Bob brinley as our man in the booth. I was sad when he left. I also want to apologize if I'm spilling his last name wrong. I remember watching this game on WGN. I had never seen a triple play before. I thought I had seen a triple play when this was all said and done.
@truthillinois6397
@truthillinois6397 Жыл бұрын
Hawk never liked any of the umpires. Even when he knew he was wrong, he always complained about umpires. I could not stand listening to him at all.
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
As to your original question -- I think that would come down to whether Hawk's commentary actually contributed to a field incident like the fans throwing stuff out of the stands -- would be very hard to prove.
@jumperguy9867
@jumperguy9867 11 ай бұрын
THis is a prime example of why Harrelson and his partners were always voted worst announcing team in MLB.
@FoxtasticGaming
@FoxtasticGaming 2 жыл бұрын
The only question I have is the first base runner passes the runner on second after the obstruction call. Does that get nullified by the original obstruction call?
@danielplotkin1586
@danielplotkin1586 2 жыл бұрын
No, because the call of out is in force until the play is over.
@BobSchmidt
@BobSchmidt 2 жыл бұрын
They didn't "miss" anything. Hawk has always been extremely biased. Just one reason why I couldn't stand the Gary White Sox. I'd rather listen to Joe Buck than Hawk.
@r.a.contrerasma8578
@r.a.contrerasma8578 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk was entertaining. Biased as hell but fun to listen to. Joe Buck?? You've hit your head man...
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@r.a.contrerasma8578 He's not fun to listen to when he is constantly wrong.
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615
@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615 2 жыл бұрын
I would take Hawk 10/10 over Joe Buck.
@CoachOlsson
@CoachOlsson 2 жыл бұрын
Cmon now, this title is misleading as well lol. is it material omission if they just miss it? usually that implies intention. heave the hawk for missing the bump? its not like they all purposefully missed it, just like umps dont purposefully miss calls. i knew from when i started watching baseball that white sox broadcasts were super homer broadcasts and many times they were my backup watch when my favorite team wasnt playing (specifically because of hawk and stone).
@sfan2767
@sfan2767 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk is a joke here, but the call isn't quite right imo. Zero outs is an unreasonable way to view what would have happened at the point the obstruction occurred. I think the way to fairly nullify the act is 1-out (batter-runner specifically) runners on 2nd and 3rd. At the time of obstruction the 3B runner was standing still near the base and BR was already sprinting towards 2B with the ball in the air to 1B. Regardless of the obstruction an out is inevitable given there is a runner standing on 3B and two runners between the ball (soon-to-be at 1B) and 3B. The runner on third breaking for home is only complicated because if he had scored he'd be granted home, but it's fair to give him 3B because he only attempted to run home due to the nature of the way the rundown occurred, which may have occurred differently without the obstruction.
@mptr1783
@mptr1783 2 жыл бұрын
nobody is going to be called out on that type of obstruction call. I would say that the runner rounding 2nd base wouldve stopped and gone back to the bag, BUT, he ran into the fielder, who didnt have the ball. Delayed dead ball, play ends, umpires put the runners where they think they wouldve been without the obstruction. Nobody can argue that putting the 3 runners on a base is wrong. Its really the ONLY ruling they couldve made. Great learning tool
@sfan2767
@sfan2767 2 жыл бұрын
@@mptr1783 You said "umpires put the runners where they think they wouldv'e been without the obstruction." I fully agree, but how can you think there would have been no outs without the obstruction based on what the play looked like when the obstruction occurred.
@1who4me
@1who4me 2 жыл бұрын
Dude you have no clue how the rule works. Rewatch the video again
@sfan2767
@sfan2767 2 жыл бұрын
​@@1who4me "The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. " I'm not interpreting the rule at this point; I'm interpreting the situation for what will nullify the act. That what the crew was discussing for a very long time; and I think they came to the wrong conclusion. I don't fault them really since I have the benefit of replay to see where everything was at the time of obstruction, while they are piecing it together from a few different people who can't pause time to sync up each other's view of the play. I'd guess they thought the ball had not yet been thrown in when the obstruction occurred, and ruled that without the obstruction batter runner would have realized he needed to get back to 1B.
@douglassepic9030
@douglassepic9030 2 жыл бұрын
Great video. Thank you. Btw... love Joe West.
@MrMaelstrom07
@MrMaelstrom07 2 жыл бұрын
At half way through the video, I thought maybe they were going to call OBS on F3(?) obstructing the BR going back to 1st. Not until we see the clear OBS on F6 did I get the events. So at the end of it all, they determine that had F6 not obstructed R1, he would have had his wits about him enough to return timely to 2nd base. F2 was pretty much at 3rd and only advanced because of the rundown with BR. So they put BR on 1st after awarding R1 2nd base and put R2 back on 3rd (since he wouldn't have advanced). Crazy play but I think Joe & crew got it right.
@johannesney2132
@johannesney2132 2 жыл бұрын
What I dont quite get is why wasn't R1 awarded 3rd? He was basically there already and ran back because of all the pointing and confusion of the OBS? Maybe Im just confused myself now but I have BR on 2nd, R1 on 3rd and R2 scoring. Or at least I have it as a reasonable possibility and this felt more like a compromise towards the Sox.
@MrMaelstrom07
@MrMaelstrom07 2 жыл бұрын
@@johannesney2132 CCS, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the reward of OBS cannot force a preceding runner to advance. For example, R1, no outs. Base hit left field gap. BR thinking maybe double. R1 rounds 2nd thinking 3rd but sees F7 has the ball and R1 returns to 2nd. Meanwhile, F3 OBS BR rounding 1st. Play ends. You can't award BR to 2nd because R1 is there. Had the obstruction not occurred, you would still have 1st and 2nd. So in this case, since R2 returned to 3rd, R1 couldn't advance to 3rd anyway.
@anthonykisner3074
@anthonykisner3074 Жыл бұрын
This video while the end call was probably correct by the rules. It also demonstrates a major flaw with the rule. Obstruction states the player gets awarded the next base automatically. That base had a runner standing on it. Which ended up getting out at home on his own discretion. Should have been runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out recorded. Or advance runners to make it runners on 1st and 3rd with a run scored. For sure a rule that needs addressing and it should become a dead ball if outs can't be recorded afterwards.
@wernerfoerster3666
@wernerfoerster3666 Жыл бұрын
Where do you get "Obstruction states the player gets awarded the next base automatically"? I don't see that in any rule.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 Жыл бұрын
Obstructed runners are not awarded the next base automatically on type 2 obstruction.
@bishopaz
@bishopaz 2 жыл бұрын
Harrelson was always the ultimate(homer) not the brightest bulb
@brandondavis5932
@brandondavis5932 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk, in all his years in baseball, has NEVER seen an obstruction play. Too busy crying "little brother" lol
@terryfortney6595
@terryfortney6595 9 ай бұрын
Well it is quite clear CB Buckner and J West, that's 2 of the 3 blind mice. If Angel Hernández were there it would have been the trifecta
@MrGeldhart
@MrGeldhart 2 жыл бұрын
Shouldn't Time have been called when the runner was tagged trying to get back to 2nd? [IIRC that was the obstructed runner, so a play was being made on the obstructed runner]. TIme. Runner on 3rd -> Home to allow Runner on 2nd-> 3rd, BR -> 2nd? (looked like a double to me)
@andrewmcnicoll4268
@andrewmcnicoll4268 2 жыл бұрын
No, because the offensive team is allowed the option of accepting the result of the play or optioning the result of the obstruction decision. Obstruction is signalled by the field umpire without stopping play.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@andrewmcnicoll4268 not true. The offense does not have a choice of the result of the play or the penalty when obstruction is called.
@andrewmcnicoll4268
@andrewmcnicoll4268 2 жыл бұрын
@@alanhess9306 I said "offense," not defense.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
​@@andrewmcnicoll4268 I should have typed offense, not defense. But it is still not true. Bases are awarded according to umpire judgment and the offense does not have a choice of the result of the play or the penalty when obstruction is called.
@andrewmcnicoll4268
@andrewmcnicoll4268 2 жыл бұрын
@@alanhess9306 My mistake, I was confusing that with catcher's interference. I figured they were the same type of penalty.
@umpireva5440
@umpireva5440 Жыл бұрын
Hawk was an idiot in the booth
@Look_Dad_Old_Tunes
@Look_Dad_Old_Tunes 2 жыл бұрын
11:09 "You're just going to have to run me": Some people just get baseball.
@violinjoel
@violinjoel Жыл бұрын
Just curious, who thinks that Peay and his third base coach were absolutely right for Peay to hold up at second base to see if the ball would be caught by the rightfielder, and to hold Peay at third on a ball that the rightfielder picked up so fast and cleanly?. So that Pagan should have also known better and not raced for third base, obstructed or not, because he should have noticed that Peay had to hold up at third? Or do we excuse Pagan because the obstruction distracted him? But DeRosa was not distracted, how could he race for second when Peay and Pagan were so held up in front of him? Looks like the obstruction was a lucky break for the Cubs that saved them from terrible baserunning.
@violinjoel
@violinjoel Жыл бұрын
But maybe if a baserunner sees clear obstruction, he should just run full out until the umpire tells him to stop, just don't illegally pass another runner in front of him, figuring that worst case the umpires will put him safely on some base after the obstruction ruling? There must be something wrong with that plan?
@michaelhogg324
@michaelhogg324 2 жыл бұрын
I wonder what the White Sox Broadcast said after it was all straightened out?
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
They’d probably still complain. Given that your supposed to simply “nullify the act of obstruction” as opposed to punishing the other team, the umps had wide latitude to do things other then load the base with no outs. I’m a Cubs fan and even I find it a little strange, though I understand the reasoning.
@XXelpollodiabloXX
@XXelpollodiabloXX Жыл бұрын
The sleeveless jerseys were the worst.
@joesavary6081
@joesavary6081 2 жыл бұрын
Funny how Hawk omits the part of fielder's interference at 2nd with Pagan
@truthillinois6397
@truthillinois6397 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t think there was ever an umpire Hawk liked or agreed with.
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
What are you doing, Wegner?
@truthillinois6397
@truthillinois6397 2 жыл бұрын
@@UnhungHero he hated west, wegner, Hernandez, and several others. I couldn’t stand listening to that guy.
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
@@truthillinois6397 in fairness, nobody is fond of West or Hernandez
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
I am legit surprised this didn't get back to the league at some point.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
@@UnhungHero “… if they want to keep him as an umpire send him back to school and teach him what the game of baseball is about!”
@lanem4304
@lanem4304 2 жыл бұрын
Here is my question. I understand the idea of "Let the play continue". Here though, it looks like the umpires decided that they were going to protect Pagan; Fine, totally understand that due to the Obstruction. You protect that runner to whatever base you feel the obstruction would have denied him obtaining (here logically 3rd base, then they backtrack and give him 2nd on his return attempt). Now, the play continues and the original R2 (now rounding 3rd) decides to attempt to go home during the rundown of the BR and gets thrown out at home. So, lets postulate that R2 does NOT get thrown out at home, but scores, then the umpires run the play back and award Pagan 2nd; do they also take the run off the board and return the runner to 3rd? or did they only return the runner to 3rd because he was called Out? Further, suppose R2 is not tagged out at home, do they then award R1 3rd base? It seems in that scenario that as an umpire I'm kinda giving the offense free reign after the obstruction call (when I by rule am protecting the obstructed runner).
@STnumber2
@STnumber2 Жыл бұрын
The entire play should have stood as it played out. Pagan was obstructed, but the obstruction was Type 2 and Pagan had reached the base he would have reached anyway, obstruction notwithstanding. The runner in front of him had stopped at 3B, so Pagan would not have been able to legally acquire that base. It seems the umpires improperly applied the rule by giving Pagan protection from being put out while returning to 2B. Ultimately, the obstruction had no correctable impact on the play.
@bkembley
@bkembley 2 жыл бұрын
The video was so potato that I thought the collision at 2nd was two runners until the Cubs broadcasters said the names. And then the rules application is about as interesting as it can get enforcing obstruction.
@davidswift7776
@davidswift7776 2 жыл бұрын
Cubs broadcasters were impressive…they knew obstruction 😅
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
Here is another video of Harrelson not knowing obstruction; kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fMedja-Jyt7SXWg.html&ab_channel=MLB
@karlmilne6446
@karlmilne6446 2 жыл бұрын
I also thought they were impressive because he also said after they saw the collision he wasn’t sure what the rules were in this situation. You don’t see announcers admit that often.
@CornPop471
@CornPop471 2 жыл бұрын
Ozzie Guillen was a great player and a great manager
@zacharylemire4523
@zacharylemire4523 Ай бұрын
Wish you had started explaining what was going on a bit earlier. 9 min in and no info
@r.a.contrerasma8578
@r.a.contrerasma8578 2 жыл бұрын
It's always Hawk vs. Cowboy Joe! Great entertainment.
@Colbssssss
@Colbssssss 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk is so legendary lol
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk is legendary only for being an asshole.
@STnumber2
@STnumber2 Жыл бұрын
Why was Pagan protected going back into 2B? The obstruction did not prevent him from attaining anything. The runner in front of Pagan stopped at 3B, so Pagan would not have been able to attain that base. The obstruction did not cause Pagan to be out when he was returning to 2B. So, yes, the Sox booth didn't do a very good job with this. But unless someone saw something more in the obstruction call, the ultimate decision by the umpires does not seem correct. Pagan should not have been protected going back to 2B.
@McClimber234
@McClimber234 Жыл бұрын
Announcers......being Announcers
@cubieblu
@cubieblu 2 жыл бұрын
Classic Hawk
@johnm840
@johnm840 2 жыл бұрын
Joe West got it right...
@richardmiller5818
@richardmiller5818 2 жыл бұрын
Why don’t the Runners keep Running ?
@TroyVan6654
@TroyVan6654 2 жыл бұрын
R2 was held at 3rd by the 3rd base coach, so R1 could not go any further than 2nd base.
@richardmiller5818
@richardmiller5818 2 жыл бұрын
@@TroyVan6654 thanks
@da_ghoul9432
@da_ghoul9432 2 жыл бұрын
Is that Joe West and CB Buckner? Well that explains a lot.
@bradt7451
@bradt7451 2 жыл бұрын
Is that some tool bag named DaGhoul who’s never umpired before? GTFOUTTA here!!!
@da_ghoul9432
@da_ghoul9432 2 жыл бұрын
@@bradt7451 I found Joe West's burner account. It can't be CB, as he is too dumb to type.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 14 күн бұрын
Yeah, it explains why they got the call correct.
@poisonpotato1
@poisonpotato1 2 жыл бұрын
Why don't umpires announce to crowd
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
A random play from 14 years ago? Couldn't find a more modern example?
@CloseCallSports
@CloseCallSports 2 жыл бұрын
This one was personal as it is probably the first play whose deficient TV coverage spurred us into analyzing plays and rules.
@noobsgotojail11
@noobsgotojail11 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk is forever
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk was a homer, he's more cheerleader than analyst. That's his schtick.
@noobsgotojail11
@noobsgotojail11 2 жыл бұрын
@@UnhungHero im saying. Lifelong sox fan btw if that explains
@bigpoppa1234
@bigpoppa1234 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting here that the end result of the umpire's "judgment" to "nullify the act of of obstruction" results in 0 outs and loaded bases. As the play develops, the runners end up as the ball came into the 1st baseman, with the lead runner being held at 3rd, the middle (after being obstructed) runner in no man's land between 2nd & 3rd, and the trail runner/batter being on 2nd. I don't necessarily see anything that must be done to "nullify" the obstruction because the obstructed runner headed to third where a team-mate was stopped. That the obstructed runner ended up in-between two occupied bases wasn't the fault of the obstruction. The obstructed runner then tries to return to 2nd but is out, and the batter runner instead of staying on 2nd and letting the umpires work it out, runs backward to 1st (presumably to give the middle runner the opportunity to return to 2nd, which didn't work). Doing that then sees the runner at 3rd to take off for home and he gets caught out instead of staying at 3rd. Was the middle runner obstructed yes, were either of the outs subsequent to that obstruction caused by the obstruction? No, in my opinion. Perhaps that rule needs to be reworked & simplified. Perhaps something like "An act of obstruction ends the play immediately with dead ball/time. All runners in play are awarded one base, and the umpires may award further bases if in their judgment the obstruction prevented runners from safely making their way beyond the awarded base." Obstruction becomes an act which is immediately punished without potential detriment to the team who was fouled, it makes the umpires less required to be subjective, but still gives them the ability to go beyond a one base award in situations that require it, such as an obstruction leaving 2nd that stops them going home or a batter runner being blocked at first on a potential inside the park homer.
@strikehold
@strikehold 2 жыл бұрын
The moment the obstruction happens the play is dead, it's pretty simple...
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
@@strikehold No, not true. The ball remains live until all playing action ceases.
@danielplotkin1586
@danielplotkin1586 2 жыл бұрын
As Gil says at the end, the result of the obstruction is that the runner rounding second is distracted from picking up the lead runner and coach.
@ZeroCrystal
@ZeroCrystal 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk "Incompetence Humanized" Harrelson having no idea how the rules of baseball work? SAY IT ISN'T SO!?!! MOST ASSUREDLY, YOU JEST!! To be fair, I always thought he was useless. If the Sox didn't get everything called in their favor, he'd piss and moan. I hope the only way he gets into the Hall of Fame is by buying a ticket. Just $20.
@YotesFan1980
@YotesFan1980 2 жыл бұрын
He's already in. He was the 2020 recipient of the Ford Frick Award.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
@@YotesFan1980 what award is that?
@UnhungHero
@UnhungHero 2 жыл бұрын
@@kenconnelly773 it's essentially a broadcaster HOF award
@ZeroCrystal
@ZeroCrystal 2 жыл бұрын
Balls.
@1who4me
@1who4me 2 жыл бұрын
Joe West is a national treasure
@Robmeister62
@Robmeister62 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk Harrelson is a joke who thinks that he is better, smarter and more able than anyone, especially umpires. Facts be damned in his convoluted thoughts.
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
I'm gonna tell you something -- could the umpires actually report something like that to the league and tell Harrelson to knock it off and actually _report the game_, under pain of suspension?
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
Harrelson’s worst tirade against an umpire (he ripped Mark Wegner a new one), just resulted in a call from Bud Selig and Hawk having to act like he’s very sorry by going to the umpire’s room the next day before the game and apologize.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t think the MLB has direct jurisdiction to suspend a broadcaster, though they can exert heavy pressure against the network.
@geoffroi-le-Hook
@geoffroi-le-Hook 2 жыл бұрын
Sox radio does not do play by play on the spring training games ... it's just a chat while the game is going on. And it's 1-2 on Leury now.
@almostfm
@almostfm 2 жыл бұрын
@@geoffroi-le-Hook And if you're a Vin Scully-class broadcaster, you can pull it off and not miss anything in the game. The problem is that there are no longer any Vin Scully-class broadcasters. My favorite example was a clip I saw that was shot with Vin in the foreground, but you could see the field behind him in the shot. Pitching coach comes out for a mound visit and Vinny starts telling a story (let's say it's about the Pirates-honestly, I've forgotten). It appears to be a pretty involved story. The mound visit ends and the story keeps going-he's talking about when the Pirates and Steelers both played at Forbes Field. The umpire signals "play ball", and the story sounds like there's more than a minute left in it. Pitcher comes set, Scully wraps it up with something like "And that's why the Pirates and Steelers wear the same color uniforms" you hear the ball hit the catcher's mitt, and Scully calls the pitch. I spent a decade in radio. "Back timing" like that isn't that easy, even if you know exactly how long you have. To fit a story entirely in a time period unknown to you when you start is a gift
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
@@kenconnelly773 I seem to recall, back in the 70's, there had to be an announcement that the announcers for the game were league-approved.
@whatsupbud100
@whatsupbud100 2 жыл бұрын
Obstruction where awful ump they are paid to much should be fined for every bad call they make. They wouldn't make money after all those bad call
@alexyerkey3141
@alexyerkey3141 2 жыл бұрын
The contact at second had no influence on the outcome of the play though!
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
totally irrelevant
@irish_demon9868
@irish_demon9868 2 жыл бұрын
Yep, not only is it irrelevant, but also totally incorrect. It had a great influence on the play
@sirme1798
@sirme1798 2 жыл бұрын
Takes a lot of effort for Joe West to eject someone - those arms look heavy.
@gradyrm237
@gradyrm237 2 жыл бұрын
I'm all for being understanding. I was consistently one of the 244 hits these boys got during the pan. I need answer on the voice.
@kevinkukla9641
@kevinkukla9641 2 жыл бұрын
No. You don't. It's Gil's information to share if he wants to or not. Obviously he doesn't want to, and as people who watch the videos we aren't entitled to any explanation. It really isn't an issue at all.
@gradyrm237
@gradyrm237 2 жыл бұрын
@@kevinkukla9641 Triggered much? Few people subscribe to this channel. Thought it was a closer community. Just worried about the kid.
@kevinkukla9641
@kevinkukla9641 2 жыл бұрын
@@gradyrm237 Few people? They have 15,000 subscribers. Just because we follow and watch their content doesn't mean they have to provide us with information to their personal lives. Just leave the dude alone, he has repeatedly said that he is having issues with his voice, but that doesn't mean he owes us an explanation.
@TheMW2informer
@TheMW2informer 2 жыл бұрын
@@kevinkukla9641 uh yes it does matter when it affects the watchability.
@kevinkukla9641
@kevinkukla9641 2 жыл бұрын
@@TheMW2informer No it really doesn't affect watchability at all. The video is there, sound is there too. If you can't listen to someone's voice then put the closed captions on. Not hard to just be a decent human being.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
Entirely subjective decision making here. Given the Cubs multiple baserunning errors no outs with the bases loaded hardly seems fair if the objective is to simply nullify the act of obstruction as opposed to trying to punish the offending team.
@MH-Tesla
@MH-Tesla 2 жыл бұрын
Problem is... everything that happened only happened because of the obstruction. No obstruction no outs. Bases loaded. Runner obstructed only went toward 3rd because he was obstructed. Batter Runner only tried for 2nd because the lead runner went to 3rd. Runner on 3rd only left to home due to other runners actions... again all of this only happened due to obstruction. Had that not occurred, all runners would have been safe on 1st 2nd 3rd. So the final call... no outs, bases loaded is correct.
@sfan2767
@sfan2767 2 жыл бұрын
Totally agree.
@TroyVan6654
@TroyVan6654 2 жыл бұрын
As a fan of the sport and not of any particular team, I prefer national broadcasts over the biased regional broadcasts.
@runrin_
@runrin_ 2 жыл бұрын
Listen to a Mets broadcast if you have some time. They are extremely good and keep their bias out of important plays.
@cadaverdog1424
@cadaverdog1424 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk knows more about baseball than all of the commenters on this post _ Great announcer!!
@michaelfalkner1186
@michaelfalkner1186 2 жыл бұрын
Just ask him!
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
You are full of crap. Have you seen the video where the Sox first baseman, Dunn, obstructed a runner heading back to first base? Hawk had no clue and was wrong as usual. He berated the umpires even though they got the call exactly correct. Hawk is a moron, he always was.
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
lmao, biggest homer I’ve ever had the displeasure of listening to.
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 14 күн бұрын
Hawk has always been dumb as a potato.
@kevinmiller6380
@kevinmiller6380 2 жыл бұрын
I'm glad Joe West is finally retiring: he's blown too many calls over the years as an umpire. He should have been fired years ago. Now if only they could get rid of Angel Hernandez.......
@danielplotkin1586
@danielplotkin1586 2 жыл бұрын
That's a rather odd comment to make on a video in which Joe West leads to the proper resolution of a very complex situation. Joe has long been an outstanding umpire, but casual fans don't recognize it because he's been in the middle of some challenging spots and announcers like Harrelson intentionally mislead people in order to deflect where the blame really belongs.
@Wolfman051970
@Wolfman051970 2 жыл бұрын
The biggest problem here is that Joe West doesn’t know what he’s doing. People are there to see the guys PLAYING the game and he fouls things up because he wants to make the game about himself. He needs to FINALLY retire
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
How did he foul things up when he got this call correct? West absolutely knows what he is doing. It's his arrogant attitude that is his problem.
@cadaverdog1424
@cadaverdog1424 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk played the game… you never did__ So show him the respect he deserves_
@kenconnelly773
@kenconnelly773 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t see any disrespect, just an honest and constructive critique of Hawk’s (failed) assessment of the play and situation.
@umpireva5440
@umpireva5440 2 жыл бұрын
As a player yes. Never as an announcer!!!
@Niel2760
@Niel2760 2 жыл бұрын
@@umpireva5440 probably not as a general manager either.
@timp8843
@timp8843 2 жыл бұрын
But hurt much?
@alanhess9306
@alanhess9306 2 жыл бұрын
Hawk is a moron when it comes to rules knowledge. Then he blames the umpires who make a correct call. It's happened more than once.
@tedgey4286
@tedgey4286 Жыл бұрын
Hawk sounds like Jim Ross the WWF announcer
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