I'm a simple man, i see a Pageau / Vervaeke video and I hit like

I love the beginning of Vervaeke looking into his own background to figure out the reason why he is having such a visceral reaction...a wonderful demonstration of “know thy self”

Quit giving me hope while I'm busy fostering nihilism.

I love that a guy as smart as John can approach topics as a beginner. He's a gem. Great discussion!

Excellent thought-provoking conversation. I am 62 and never thought I would ever consider myself at all religious but, incredibly to me, I find that I have developed into what I now consider to be a religious person. I think I always was but I just didn't believe the fact (I had a serious anxiety breakdown 20 years ago due to what I can now see as an extremely nihilistic outlook). The ability to listen to people such as yourselves, Jordan Peterson and others, including various scientists who are also very religious (two fields of experience that I had previously considered to be incompatible) has helped me to begin to see and understand things that I simply wasn't aware of before. Thank God for youtube! I actually just completed a census form and, for the first time ever, I entered Christian in the religion box as opposed to No Religion as previously.

This conversation is full of gold. The orthodox take on Original sin, the problem of eliminating the margin, the problem of the revolutionary, and the Christian answer to identify with both the victim and perpetrator etc. A good conversation partner brings the best out of Jonathan :)

I love how you two can respect each other’s positions while pursuing truth together.

“In so far as I am Man I am chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners. All humanity that had meant pessimism, that had meant man taking a vague or mean view of his whole destiny - all that was to go. We were to hear no more the wail of Ecclesiastes that humanity had no pre-eminence over the brute, or the awful cry of Homer that man was only the saddest of all the beasts of the field. Man was a statue of God walking about the garden. Man had pre-eminence over all the brutes; man was only sad because he was not a beast, but a broken god.” “Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both and keeping them both furious. The Church was positive on both points. One can hardly think too little of one’s self. One can hardly think too much of one’s soul.” G.K. Chesterton

I will thank both of them Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke for this great talk. I also thank Jordan Peterson, who made this talk possible.

Strange articulation of most everything I've been thinking for the last several years. A bold, brave and brilliant conversation. New respect for both these cats... crucial conversation... THANK YOU GENTLEMAN!!

I'm not educated enough to follow all this, but thank you men for challenging me and giving me a language to talk about this current moment in history.

Jonathan, John, Paul, Jordan...even the "new atheists" - these guys are actually embodying the Prodigal Son's pattern, the swinging pendulum move from the periphery back to the Centre. We all, including the unhappy atheists, know Who is there in the centre.⛪

John "thank you, Jonathan" Vervaeke

I think that the notion of trauma is the miracle of healing. The trauma that you are afraid of facing, is the trauma Christ would heal should you face it. The many sins which threaten to tear you apart become the very wounds through which unity comes.

Good start for a Monday

Thank you both so much for this discussion. In a world that seems to be in chaos, your direction on how to frame questions and see the latent forces is comforting and so important. A new world will arise.

So grateful for this conversation! You bring out the best in each other. Love to see your mutual charity and wisdom. Thank you for these insights!

1:14:11 "this perpetual wheel of victimhood which is looking perpetually for more and more scapegoats" The victim triangle. The alternating roles of victim, perpetrator and rescuer we often see.

Great honest discussion here. I'll certainly be sharing it.

I'm going to have to listen to this twice. Excellent conversation. Thank you.

“Jesus and the Buddha are meta political” oh I just love that!

1:05:00 Do any of you remember about the experiment where a group of participants were asked to judge and evaluate criminals and their actions in a room full of disgusting smell and the other group in a room with no artificial smell? I believe on average the people in a room with unpleasant smell made harsher judgement on criminals. I don't have the paper and I don't know how relevant this is nor I believe in this research with certainty but I was just wondering that the fear and concern of contamination might be driving people to make harsh and quick judgements. The sense of being free of "diseases" has been amplified and as the recent protest shows that people are regarding "racism" as a "public health" issue. It's becoming very difficult to deny that there's a parallel here. Also it's delightful to know that Jonathan has been paying attention to Rene Girard. I think his analysis of violence is so valuable to understand the current issue. (battling to the end, the scapegoat, violence and the sacred)

The term "social justice" was coined by Fr. Luigi Taparelli, S.J. who was one of the teachers of Pope Leo XIII, who wrote the modern social encyclicals of the Catholic Church during the times of industrialization. Fr. Luigi derived this term from his study of St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas emphasized natural law, so yes there is that sense that social injustices create sin, but the fact that there is sin is because the injustices violate laws of reality which were created and ordained by God. The modern term "social justice" is very arbitrary, but even when people use the term in confusing ways they are still speaking from an intuitive sense that they sense wrongs in the world. I'd agree with Alastair McIntyre that ethics need to become re-grounded in the virtues. Thomistic philosopher Jacques Maritain was a prominent contributor to the U.N.'s universal list of human rights.

Oh my! The more I listen to Jonathan, he confirms all that I think and chat about to GOD on the flaws of humanity. I'm glad for mercy and grace.

I look forward with great excitement to a PVK Vervake Pageau conversation. Thank you for all the work you guys do

I always love listening to conversations between Vervaeke and Pageau. There's something about the dialogos of two thinkers converging on similar conclusions, but coming from different intellectual backgrounds, that i think is beautiful to witness. And it's made possible by the sincerity and humility that you both bring to the discussion, hence providing a sense of good faith that allows for the manifesting of a conversational flow. I'm grateful for having stumbled onto both of your channels.

Wonderful to hear you are inviting Paul. I was thinking that he would be a perfect conversation partner in this conversation. I will listen to this a few times. So much to think about. Thank you gentlemen.

Amazing discussion. This is the conversation we need to be having.

For me the “horror” was put in the proper place in me with communion in Jesus. Until then I, in ways unknowingly and knowingly, bore the trauma alone as a constant nearly unbearable weight. We all face the same human problem in common and have the free will to chose to keep it against God or absolve it with God.

Wow, top shelf stuff from both of y’all. Thank you so much for sharing this!

I always love your conversations thank you

Thanks!

The type of discussion that is much needed now more than ever to bridge the divide between the left and the right.

Powerful dialogue! 💯🙏🏼🥰

I really enjoyed this, I hope you guys talk again soon

Jesus Christ, this conversation was fucking excelent. Thank you!

I got excited when the three-way talk with Paul was announced!

Fantastic discussion!

Thanks

Great discussion, respect to both of you 👏🌼

Another great one! Thanks!

What a fantastic summary of the values and blind spots of the left and right views

got really good around the 50 minute mark, pageau's symbolic powers are crazy

nice conversation thank you

So much info and wisdom in one conversation. 👍👍👍🙏🙏🙏

Amazing discussion. Thanks so much for this one. And Vervaeke, Pageau and VanderKlay...can't wait!

Great discussion! Looking forward to the trialogue with You, Paul and John. 😉

Great topics as Jonathan Pageau mentioned children blaming their parents. Mark 13; 12-13 12; And the brother shall betray his brother unto death, and the father his son; and children shall rise up against the parents, and shall work their death. 13 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.

I am thankful for this video, I am listening after the US 2020 election and the Storming of the Capital. There is a mixture of good ideas/motivation and toxic ideas/motivations that is driving everyone insane. I need to hear the weighing out of these ideas, but I appreciate what JV said, ppl have too choose and right now there is just anger and confusion.

I came here for a good discussion. I got that plus a reference to a favorite movie from when I was a kid "Journey to the Center of the Earth".

Thank you guys I really appreciate this conversation. On so many levels in fact. Very refreshing. All the best !

Just part way into this, and I understand John's traumatic childhood experience as evidence of the disastrous results of the Lutheran and Calvinist view of human nature as having become totally depraved, so as to have effectively ceased to bear the image of God, and even to be incapable in this life of achieving transformation and liberation. The Western Catholic tradition presents a more hopeful picture of the image of God being maintained in human beings, with the possibility of some natural virtue, and, moreover, the aptitude for receiving. in Christ, the supernatural life and virtues. In short, much Protestant thinking leaves human beings as entirely sinful and having by faith, not a transformation of their inner life, but only a judicial exemption from eternal punishment for their sins, which they expect to be unavoidably continuous in this life. The Wesleyan/ Holiness tradition that emerged from Anglicanism (which had retained the more positive Catholic view) is the manifestation in Protestantism of that more hopeful view. I am uneasy about the modern Eastern Orthodox ideas which seem to imply that it is only the problem of mortality, and not an inborn tendency towards sin, which is humankind's problem. It tends to say that man sins because he is mortal, rather than that he is mortal because he has inherited a tendency towards sinning. It is necessary to affirm that God takes care to maintain in human beings His image, sustaining our essential humanity, and gives helps to all who are willing to pursue the fullest expression of what it is to be human. We are all called to orient ourselves towards our Creator, both for natural perfection and for supernatural life.

I love both of you so much, your conversations deal exactly with what I have been working through in my mind and heart these last few years. We are all in the middle of a symbolic forest fire. The seeds are watching and waiting as the fire of GENUINE opponent processing helps bring us into being. John's Socratic analogy of being a midwife is so perfect. You are like nurses trying to "pull our heads out of the Great Mother" so we can be BORN.

Great explanation of original sin

There is no societal solution, there is only individual responsibility and agency.

One of the most enjoyable and illuminating discussions I've heard in a while. Simultaneously validating and challenging to my personal value system. One question though - who is Paul?

Every time Vervaeke says "um" or "uh" take a shot

Original sin is the beginning of a learning curve -- that life is lived in relationship -- and never rightly apart from God, in His triunity, fully participating. From our viewpoint we get a bit entangled in the particulars, but the real value is in the living of the experience. Would it be helpful to distinguish categories of physical and moral depravity, say genetic frailty that could be viewed as God’s executive judgment for which we are accountable only to make the best of, versus moral choices which call for sacrifice -- to make room for grace? The purpose of physical depravity is represented in a lifespan that compels us in many ways.

I value this conversation very much. I feel that Jonathan is providing John with a corrective to the idea of the need for a "religionless religion" that John was discussing on another video recently.

1:04:32 is mind blowing

Take the case of courage. No quality has ever so much addled the brains and tangled the definitions of merely rational sages. Courage is almost a contradiction in terms. It means a strong desire to live taking the form of a readiness to die. 'He that will lose his life, the same shall save it,' is not a piece of mysticism for saints and heroes. It is a piece of everyday advice for sailors or mountaineers. It might be printed in an Alpine guide or a drill book. This paradox is the whole principle of courage; even of quite earthly or brutal courage. A man cut off by the sea may save his life if we will risk it on the precipice. He can only get away from death by continually stepping within an inch of it. A soldier surrounded by enemies, if he is to cut his way out, needs to combine a strong desire for living with a strange carelessness about dying. He must not merely cling to life, for then he will be a coward, and will not escape. He must not merely wait for death, for then he will be a suicide, and will not escape. He must seek his life in a spirit of furious indifference to it; he must desire life like water and yet drink death like wine. No philosopher, I fancy, has ever expressed this romantic riddle with adequate lucidity, and I certainly have not done so. But Christianity has done more: it has marked the limits of it in the awful graves of the suicide and the hero, showing the distance between him who dies for the sake of living and him who dies for the sake of dying. G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

The Left focuses on Fate; the Right focuses on Virtue. However, our channels of discussion, our public places, also focus on Fate. There's an imbalance, culturally, of emphasizing the Left's priorities. The only place to hear what the Right is saying are dark corners of the internet or in churches. The Left's "Church" is entertainment/communications industry, and it has nothing to say about Virtue -- except that their focus on Fate IS Virtue.

Hello World!

Ezekiel 18.

It always makes me feel good when I've already come to the same conclusions as the people I consider smarter than me.

Could you have your conversation with Paul Vanderklay at a time when European viewers will be able to follow it live?

Hi Jonathan, I want to read more into original sin as it seems to be one of the more foundational doctrines. Who would you recomed I read? I'd particularly like a church father if you could recommend one

I'm not kidding that one of my best friends in high-school looked at me dead in the face and asked me why we need to sleep, and we could figure out the out answer......makes sense we couldn't figure out why sleep was useful...cuz well its not, its supposed to be useful, and prune away all the meaning that doesn't matter

Now this is a strange angle on sin an the meaning crisis. 1970's and early 80's cartoon morality. The TV networks tried very hard not to offend anyone so hard that it became absurd. When one listens to writers talk about that period and what was allowed and what was not it made no real world sense. This is the way our reality is turning into.

Frustration and Failure can replace Liturgical/religious "beliefs".

PTSD is the guilt of failure, not death.

A sign of genius and divinity is to take complicated topics and be able to communicate them simply , briefly , and so even the most common man can understand it.. Jesus Christ was the best at this by far and it is just one of the many qualities one can look up and try to emulate the best we can. . But then you have the modern day pharisees way of thinking which is always inward towards the self , masquerading as helpful to others but never is , and takes complicated ideas and makes them somehow even more confusing -- infusing the ideas with their own venom which festers and infects our minds. This is harsh , but I see that in Mr Vervaeke. I see his pride of his university-level words which may as well be called occult for how many people actually understand them.. He continually refers to his own negative experience over and over and over again -- claiming to seek advice but never seems to listen / heed any.. He seems so filled with anxiety and fear it is actually manifesting in his speech and physical movements.. Meanwhile Mr Pageau's body sings as he conveys large and difficult concepts into simple and beautiful translations we all can understand.. Maybe I am just being a jerk -- I likely am -- but some people just rub you the wrong way and you can tell there is just something 'off' about them.. He speaks like a rabbi 'wrestling' with God , and seems hung up on and even at times relishing his 'childhood trauma' -- more interested in sharing it / spreading it to others than trying to understand and overcome it.. Hrm.

The quest for cosmic justice by Sowell.

I think it's wrong to say the right has forgot about fate. Many in the new right/reaction set are very concerned about fate's effects.

THIS is a doozy!!! I have so much to say.

Someone once said to me that 'the gods are playing games with mankind' and there is some sympathy for that statement when you consider that mankind was collateral damage from what was a rebellion somewhere else in the universe over the Creators right to rulership. Yes Adams decision to disobey was as difficult for him to do, as we as imperfect find to do what is right in our imperfection, but the Slanderer chose the weak link in corrupting mankind, he chose the women who was in no way as experienced or mature in her perfection as Adam, no did she have the time to come to appreciate the relationship she had with her heavenly father, the perverse lust that Satan and his cohorts had in pursuit of womankind was what was at the heart of the rebellion in the heavenly realm, and was born out in the pre-flood landscape of the Nephilim, yes evil abounded and mankind was vulnerable from this superhuman infection upon the human race, and so the creator acted by wiping out that perversion that the fallen sons had created. The bible is certainly not comprehensive in the fall of man, and while I appreciate the divine law subsequently demands the corresponding ransom on the divine scales to undo what Adam did in condemning us all to death, that perfect ransom could never come from the Angelic realm since they had already proved themselves disloyal to both Yehovah and Jesus with their rebellion and perversion with womankind, over a third of the Angelic family rebelled against the Creator that is some number, and it gives you an idea of the scale of corruption pre-flood, Yehovah could only trust his dear son to set the scales and balance right, and that is the only redeeming factor in this whole sorry mess, that man has paid a horrific price for down through the centuries, and the kingdoms of men that have come and gone with their bloodshed. Yet still, after all, that happened in the garden of Eden and pre-flood, we are still subjected to powerful demonic spirit forces that shape this world, as if what went before isn't enough, we have in our imperfection the influence of Satanic forces that shape this world we now live in, as Jesus stated clearly who the ruler of this world was, and in that we are still caught in this heavenly battle which is occasionally focused on in scripture with accounts like 'The Prince of Persia' contention in the book of Daniel. Then fast forward to the Apocalypse you get the final or not so final battle of Armageddon where we see the Abyssing of these demonic forces and the survival of a 'Great crowd of Mankind' that no man was able to number. This then ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ to bring mankind back to perfection, but guess what the game is still not over, for at the end the 1000 year reign of Christ, Satanic forces are let loose once aging on the human family? If it were not for the Ransom sacrifice of Christ I tell you I would argue with god to kingdom come over this endless bloody mess, and it is because of this narrative that I do have a lot of sympathy with those that say 'The gods are playing games with mankind'.

What was the name of the guy Pageau mentions at 1:13:33? I cant make it out, sounds French

What is that guy's name who Jonathan said was talking about the machine of antichrist? I have no idea how to spell it

I am looking forward to AI allowing me to be part of conversations like these. Once AI is fully capable of deep fakes(which is just around the corner) long form interviews with individuals to whom which have comprised a prolific or extensive content library online will provide sufficient enough of a basis to allow a AI large language model to accurately assume accurate potential responses from the individuals that are having the conversation to the listeners own interjections and inquiries. Simply put, in the near future podcasting will become interactive conversations for the listener with the individuals recording the podcast, providing the listeners both interaction and participation of the interview.🤯🥳

The term "militarization of police" is getting thrown around a lot but I think people have it backwards. Just because cops get military gear doesn't mean they are militarized. A militarized police would have better training, better discipline, better accountability, etc. Police have been trending away from those things for decades.

1:17:09 as an ex-Muslim I disagree with this statement. Islam was more akin to the French Revolution than to the rise of Buddhism or Christianity. Or even Judaism for that matter. That's probably why it has the same undertone of totalitarianism you get from modern people who consider the French Revolution a taboo and a "sacred event" that only frowned-upon-people would dare to foolishly criticize.

💚💚💚💚💚

I tell people directly that I wear a mask because I’m superstitious and it makes me feel better. As with my other superstitious practices, it’s likely that it won’t help me, but it’s easy and there’s a small chance that it will, so why not? Great conversation, really enjoyed it.

Basically, there is the approach to sin as a sickness. I think that's what Jonathan tries to formulate. Well, tried at one point in the video, I mean.

how can we have equality and deferment to authority at same time

I think the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil has something to do with judging (chaos). I think the tree of life has something to do with harmonic regularity (truth).

Halfway through about politics and later on religio being something that will always appear and Jonathan talks about how it can be gone about incorrect

I would like to know if Dr. Vervaeke ever had one good experience in church as a boy. (?)

Hi Jonathan, love this talk! Who is the person you name at 1:13:33?

is it a meaning crisis as much as it is a crisis of division? that is to say, many of our grandparents generation grew up in church centred community. now, you get to pick between massive array of distractions and loyalties. the centre has not held, there is no anchoring force in many communities now. of course communities are bad for the system, as god forbid someone might give a damn about something other than money. I'm lucky in that I'm commenting as an outsider, someone from a strong community but economic migration has greatly harmed it though its nowhere near as dead as many I read about.

I request that a Roman Catholic join in your proposed dialogues with Paul as well. The Great Chism Of 1054 still is in place in Christendom.✨😺💫🌈

Sin and truth as synonyms for missing or hitting the target can be said to belong to the hunting part of the ancient human tribe, i.e. the masculine realm. How about the feminine realm, the home part of the tribe (that did not hunt)- what meaning does sin and truth play there? (A genuine question). For me, at least for truth, it does not belong or matter in the feminine realm (which is what we are seeing playing out today as our societies are getting more feminine), but what about sin? I cant really figure out how sin works - except that there seem to be no redemption from sin in the postmodernist/feminist (feminine) movement.

What's the thinker Jonatha mentions towards the end, who died recently, cant catch the name!?

I do love the discussion but I am amazed at how disparaging those who don’t erase the agency of black people is done so lightly. Lots of value in the discussion. Thanks.

Every sin against God(Allah) is an original sin because God transcends times and places and requires repentance.But God forgives(that is why he is worshipped).

A boy named Sue.

Lotsa words.

"Reney Jeerah"? You mean "Renny Gerald" right

+

Correction ….Adam brought the knowledge of good and evil to the human race which brings sin to who chooses evil over good.And that my friend Jesus Christ is the only way out of this because he never chose evil once in which no man has ever done. Let me make this clear in that if you chose evil over good one time and chose good a thousand times over evil you became sin in that death has entered in you… through that one act…. And by Jesus Christ by his one act saved us by his death and his life all at the resurrection to those who believe….. Peace