Overtraining, overreaching and fitness metrics TSS CTL ATL EXPLAINED (aka Fatigue science)

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4 жыл бұрын

Everything you need to know about fatigue including rest, over-training, over-reaching and fatigue metrics (TSS, TSB, ATL, CTL) and for advanced users: CTLramp rate
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#fatigue #fitness #overtraining #overreaching

Пікірлер: 85

@Fastfitnesstips Жыл бұрын

Now watch my follow up on "how to overcome fatigue" kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oc2eeJeVz769aGg.html

@ShawnStradamus520 4 жыл бұрын

For the highly motivated, the first sign of fatigue is lack of motivation.

@benbwaite9858 4 жыл бұрын

I pay the price of always delaying rest weeks and come down with a sore throat which then turns to tonsilitis. You get fitter and stronger and want to keep going but eventually your body needs a break.

@allthingsTechrelated 4 жыл бұрын

Signs of overworking. Make sure your brake is not rubbing first. A very in-depth coverage. Glad I take the leave early option.

@rzeckner 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Very informative. I am really glad to know that I am not the only one who feels that weeks of effort can all be lost with a single day off.

@parisneto 2 жыл бұрын

Amazing class. Thanks for explaining the complexity that motivated me to getting a coach.

@onkelsort5381 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome video, really highlighted a topic of yearlong concerns. Thanks!!

@7gibbens 4 жыл бұрын

Just finished festive 500 in 3 days. Wish I had listened to your first comment but following through I'm glad to hear that you agree that HR is an important determinant of conditioning which I think has been unfairly disposed of by power meters. There will always be a place for HR in my cycling evaluation 🚴‍♂️💪

@aquiseb Жыл бұрын

I appreciate the extensive “listen to your body” reminder

@theguzziman 4 жыл бұрын

The perfect vid' for today. I did some hard days between boxing day and Sunday and still feel jaded today and didn't sleep great last night. Another slice of cake and a mug of tea followed by a sit down I think rather than an hours hard interval training I think

@kilburncounty 4 жыл бұрын

Very informative. Would have been good to hear something about the effects of ageing. I have to think way more carefully about recovery now.

@michaelmartin2172 4 жыл бұрын

Wow, you are back with a bang with this awesome vid! thank you for you excellent content all year! Is there any blood test which shows "fitness" as opposed to fatigue? (future topics.....how about recovery from injury?)

@xiamingming8758 Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much, man , I am an architect, but still interested in ur class, I learned a lot about sports science from here.🥰

@Sam-cy6cd 3 жыл бұрын

Great video!!!

@mikeclements4548 4 жыл бұрын

Excellent

@richjlaw 4 жыл бұрын

Really interesting video. I feel like "recovery" is the unsolved part of performance and training. I agree that TSS/TSB does not always seem to correlate with feel or fatigue (sometimes maybe it does). I recently put out my best ever 10 min power at the end of the hardest training block I've ever done. On the flipside, I've had days when I should be fine but although I can push out the power, my HR just won't go up and I feel awful. What you said about rest days/recovery weeks is really interesting as after years of training I'm still figuring out what I need. As say, going by feel would mean it would be different every week/cycle. I often get bumps in performance the week after recovery weeks so that has convinced me that I need to somewhat formulaically do them every 4 weeks. I'm now experimenting with HRV which I think seems to help show how much everything else other than training contributes to recovery - especially sleep!

@davidgeorge9233 4 жыл бұрын

I’ve had an experience of fatigue / over training this year Alex, with very little warning I went from an FTP of 301 to not being able to do a 270w interval for two minutes, looking back there was some signs that i started to struggle on longer rides in the weeks before. I put it down to too many rides at high intensity, and it took two months of Z1/Z2 workouts before I had any motivation to push the pedals hard again. I did a ramp test before Christmas and had lost 10w on my FTP. Looking back through my ride data there isn’t much to suggest this was coming, but I wonder if in the future AI might help with this kind of prediction?

@Korvin1337 4 жыл бұрын

I was pushing myself recently and probably did a workout with a fever and got heart issues, 2-3 weeks rest now. My Power was steadily dropping after the fever workout but very slowly so its easier to just feel how you feel vs power numbers. I did my best 5 minutes effort ever during the fatigued state/ after fever workout but it felt horrible in the wrong way

@isaacyoung1868 4 жыл бұрын

I like the idea of the efficiency score.. but is it normalized power/ave hr for the whole ride? Or do you need to compare the average power/ave hr? Or just compare the np/avehr for similar intervals? Like compare similar 20 minute intervals at a stable power like ftp or at sweet spot

@lhotse1716 4 жыл бұрын

On this subject, I would really love it if you did a video on W' / W'bal

@nhug5674 4 жыл бұрын

great stuff as always Alex. Where did you take the graph 12:22 from if I may ask?

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

It is the Interval Design Studio Visual Training Log for the Wahoo Fitness App but I dont think it is out yet.....read here forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13099265/interval-design-studio-visual-training-log-for-the-wahoo-fitness-app#p20425961

@davidhughson6464 4 жыл бұрын

ONE OF THE VERY BEST ! Have you published any books, so I can have as a reference tool, throughout the training year?

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

you are too kind! I am thinking of a book for the end of next year. Be sure to join us on fft.tips/strava or fft.tips/coachgroup or fft.tips/patreon for the latest info.

@BFinesilver2 2 жыл бұрын

Please do produce that book!

@sirdmayo 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the video, I just started using Training Peaks last month and I have all my workouts from January 2022 till now. As it stands My FATIGUE is 115, FITNESS is 111 and FORM is - 8. Please what can I do to reduce my Fatigue?

@ianbrown_ 4 жыл бұрын

Interesting content - thanks 👌

@khaki.shorts 4 жыл бұрын

Wow! Did you get a proper mic, or start recording in a room with heaps of towels? The audio sounds great in this video - especially compared to some others. Great content too.

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

haha, thanks! Admittedly my sound science has been terrible. This one: same mic (fifine) but different orientation!

@dlm311 4 жыл бұрын

High 5 on speaking slower too

@MrBhupisuhag Жыл бұрын

Txs

@SteveHofsaess 4 жыл бұрын

Great Video,, I have also noticed the TSS is biased towards longer rides and not intensity. I will start to use a HRM with my power meter. Could you recommend 2-3 best metrics to use when evaluating my data. I use NP power , TSS currently

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

thanks for feedback! It depends what you are trying to measure. There is not one single metric which does it all. For "effort" I prefer ave HR; for output use "NP"; for load use "TSS" ; for fitness use fft.tips/CTL or fft.tips/icu but remember these metrics all need some improving in the future.

@SteveHofsaess 4 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips You always respond very quickly,, I clicked on the link for online training and it did not load,, I am currently in South America

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

haha, thanks; which link is not working? fft.tips/onlinecoaching or fft.tips/coachingflyer19 . The Bereda link is not working....their site is now closed 😰

@BFinesilver2 2 жыл бұрын

The aim of training is to encourage the build up of ATL and CTL to the point at which the point of doing additional training for the given increase in stress overload, would put you too far over the line of over reaching and subsequent short recovery from a recovery week. It doesn't matter whether the tipping point comes after 2 weeks or 6. If you ate experienced, you listen to your body and din't go too far into the red before recovery and super-compensation....even if your training plan prescribes more than you achieved during your current block.

@AndrewL 3 жыл бұрын

Where do I see my CTL?

@marcosksaad 3 жыл бұрын

Hi Alex, awesome job. Please, on the 21:59 we can some charts and columns that we don't have in the "Training periodization planner" sheet such as: Intervals % of sessions, Steady State % of sessions, Days of per month and some charts. Have you change it or is a paid version? Thank you

@Fastfitnesstips 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!! Try fft.tips/tpp3 for the extra columns (as well as fft.tips/tpp)

@marcosksaad 3 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips Thank you very much for your prompt response!

@marcosksaad 3 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips Hi Alex, just as a feedback, the regular sheet is showing monthly "Approximate mean TSS" when labeled as weekly. The new one "02_ Training Periodization Planner_V3 is ok. Regards.

@marcosksaad 3 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips Hi Alex, you classify the daily TSS loads in theses sheets. How is that done? Is it related to the current CTL? Tks.

@Fastfitnesstips 3 жыл бұрын

@@marcosksaad TSS = Intensity ^2 x duration....so daily TSS is likely ave daily Intensity ^2 x ave duration. CTL is your historic 6 weeks rolling average TSS so, CTLs is your measurement, my sheet is a model or prediction

@MrJhockley 4 жыл бұрын

I agree TSS results always feel a bit wrong. For me a long easy ride can have twice the load of a race pace half marathon however the latter i could maybe do once a week and the former several times a week. TSS always seems high if i do a lot of zone 2 work and low if i do a lot of sprintervals. I feel like my fatigue tracker doesn't correlate with what i feel internally or my rHR.

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

Interesting comment thanks Jonathon; we are making good progress remapping TSS to hrTRIMP

@neillgowans4350 4 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree with you any more if I tried Jonathon.

@jvapfialho 4 жыл бұрын

Guys, I could not find the paper you referenced at the beginning of the video (1:33): Internacional Journal of Sports Physiology Performance 2008 14(4):1-25. You probably got something wrong with this citation

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

Apologies it is: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30300025 || Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2019 Apr 1;14(4):493-500.

@stuartdryer1352 4 жыл бұрын

I think you made an interesting comnent about HR. I live in a place that is extremely hot and humid seven months per year (Houston Texas). When it's 37 degrees, the stress and training load measured just from the power meter is fairly useless. Only the HR training score is really accurate. The PM cannot account for the metabolic demands of thermoregulation in extreme environments. Thermal stress depends on humidity, speed, wind, how much time is spent in the direct sun vs shade, etc.. I dont know how to get Training Peaks to tell me a heart rate training score and power training score separately. It seems like I cam only get a heart rate-based score if I disconnect my PM from the head unit. Do you have a solution for that?

@akkatonezapkin536 4 жыл бұрын

You can always switch from "classic" (power-based) TSS to hrTSS browsing your workout, cannot you? O_o

@stuartdryer1352 4 жыл бұрын

@@akkatonezapkin536 I haven't figured out how to do it in TP. Is there a setting on the Garmin?

@akkatonezapkin536 4 жыл бұрын

@@stuartdryer1352 I haven't ever used Garmin, so no idea regarding it. You can change the TSS calculating algorithm via TP website just clicking on a workout (or via a TP smartphone app in a 'Summary' workout menu) and then clicking on a little triangle near your TSS number. It goes without saying that you need to have both HR and power data to be recorded in order to switch or only HR data to have hrTSS chosen by default.

@stuartdryer1352 4 жыл бұрын

@@akkatonezapkin536 Thank you!!!!!! I never noticed the little triangle before!! It works. Solves my summer problem.

@xiamingming8758 Жыл бұрын

I have a question, there is a chart in the video, it's about the relationship among heartrate lactate and Power, and it is divided in to easy hard and unsustainable, what is the source of this chart? Thanks🙂

@Fastfitnesstips Жыл бұрын

That's a fairly common graph in exercise physiology, sorry if I did not put the source, it comes up with a Google search for " watts vs hr vs lactate"

@SpeedBoosted136 2 жыл бұрын

I am 38 and already tired of getting overreaching so often. Especially when trying to go with a Plan from Zwift let's say, i start Ok and it feels hard and after several days - can't finish the training. Yes, the ftp ser correct (its 228, webt down from 260 in past two months). Trying to train but getting Unproductive..so how can i get fit if i barely can handle 5-6 hours a week and then can't finish workouts??

@damon123jones 4 жыл бұрын

How about science based studies on morning heart rate and heart rate variability ?

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

Video coming on HRV k the new year!

@antonioneto7976 4 жыл бұрын

Definitely HR and HRV relation to tss it's a good topic that could come after this as a follow-up to the past videos that have been related to fatigue, muscle fiber types, training periodization and methods. I think HRM will start to get back again in popularity as HRV starts to become a new way of measure your physical condition on the day morning and before a workout in order to guide you on what you should be doing and prevent overreaching or even get into over training states if you don't know how to listen to your body signs. I've been doing those measurements and the app I use have been pretty spot on with my conditions. And it's so true that it goes red as soon as I get sick. Apart from that the power/hr it's a good way to measure you efficiency, the say way of power/time is a good way to measure your muscle fatigue resistance. So to conclude I think the tss from a power meter specially of yesterday workout is not enough to guide you on what you should be doing today about your training intensity and volume.

@BFinesilver2 2 жыл бұрын

The non fatigued state was meant to mean that you do the test totally rested after a recovery period.

@raphaeltiziani7476 4 жыл бұрын

I was for sure "acutely" overtrained sometimes this year. Not getting my HR up, feeling dead inside etc. But usually 2 days and a z1 ride charge me up really well. but now after the "offseason" and lower training load, especcially no 5-7hr rides my FTP went down a bit. But it will go up hopefully again in spring with the long days.

@simonsimon8213 4 жыл бұрын

So does tss overcalculate intensity or duration

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

TSS under weights intensity and over weights duration relative to the actual physiological cost

@simonsimon8213 4 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips okay thanks. For me Body forces me to rest if i ramp up training to quickly with a sore throat. The chart gives me 3 ctl per week ramp rate but isnt that Very low? Maybe even too low for making adapations. I have a 333 watt ftp with a 54 ctl and 17 years old

@Fastfitnesstips 4 жыл бұрын

@@simonsimon8213 which chart? fft.tips/CTL? you can adjust the difficulty of the ramp rate if its too low for you

@simonsimon8213 4 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips the fatigue Planer From this Video and the suggested ctl ramp of 3 is the advised maximum

@simonsimon8213 4 жыл бұрын

@@Fastfitnesstips im not Sure if that lets me Progress but maybe i should just Trust ghe process and stay more consistent through not getting ill

@zzhughesd 4 жыл бұрын

All positive. All good. So many crude measures of data. Indeed how body tells you is The best way unless we're Ineos sport directors

@davidstrong7854 4 жыл бұрын

I do so agree tss is way overrated for duration. And poorly represents intensity. We need a good adjustment for this, Or a better model.

@jockie666 4 жыл бұрын

The video is pretty understandable up until about 19:00. Then I get lost because you're galopping too much using a stream of abbreviations you haven't introduced before.

@cypriano8763 4 жыл бұрын

for most middle aged dads training less that 10 hours a week, overtraining really. sometimes i feel people have the dreaded fear of overtraining as a great excuse to stay at home on a clowdy cold day. cmon, for most people, the issue is more getting out there than doing to much. look at bernal on strava, you think hes worried about training too much, he wants to win the tour, he doesnt have 50 excuses lined up to stay home

@rezoanalom9732 4 жыл бұрын

One of the main reasons pro riders are able go be pro is their ability to handle much higher amounts of training stress than most people. Also, your body is able to handle more stress as you get more fit. It is definitely possible for a dad doing less than 10 hours of riding to overtrain. Espescially if all of their rides are high intensity, which is often the case.

@cypriano8763 4 жыл бұрын

@@rezoanalom9732 my point here is overtraining is not issue for the average cyclist,. The bigger problem if high cholesterol,extra pounds and a general lack of fitness. Making people worried about overtraining seams a bit counter productive. I wonder what the stats are on the % of all cyclists who have ever suffered from overtraining.

@raphaeltiziani7476 4 жыл бұрын

If you do 10 zwift races than you will overtrain. If Egan does 10 h zwift races each in Z4/5 he will also overtrain. He is just able to train so much because until 250W he is probably just in z1 and he is genetically giftet.

@cypriano8763 4 жыл бұрын

@@raphaeltiziani7476 overtaining could be an issue for bernal but not for 95 precent of all cyclists. Thats for people.who ride more than 10000ks a year

@raphaeltiziani7476 4 жыл бұрын

@@cypriano8763 i rode 18600 km last year and on some days I was certainly ovrrtrained