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RIP Grand Design! When the lawyers get done this company is toast!

There should be a 10 year frame warranty industry wide.

Tom, if you noticed Josh's video only blamed the owners not the manufacturers. He also minimized the issue.

Make a report to NHTSA. This is the quickest way to get a recall.

A great presentation. Thank you for doing this to help others. My heart goes out to those with this serious and expensive problem.

It's funny that only large full time high mileage fifth wheels are having this problem. While I feel for the owners, it appears to be virtually impossible to point to one thing causing the problem. My guess is it is a number of factors including being overweight, bad highways with huge potholes excessive speed, etc. I also bet that Grand Design is overstating the cargo capacity making RV's to be overloaded without the owners aware. Also, people need to know that used means you are on your own and shouldn't expect the manufacturer to do anything. Given this, a recall is dreaming.

I strongly believe that excessive frame flex or frame failure is completely indefensible by the manufacturers. Does the DOT or NTSB condone or allow frame failure on any other vehicle on our highways? No! Why should RV's be any different. As for the three year warranty on frames, it should be ten years minimum.

Well there is a pretty big KZfaqr trying to help Lippert make sure they distance themselves from any of this. I’m so glad I sold my RV before it started developing any issues! I can’t believe certain people are trying to put so blame on the owners when you see videos of these frames with nothing on them with absolutely no gussets or plating on joints

What are the odds of having frame failure on 2 RVs in a row? We'll you can count us in that bin.

I get that it is not just Grand Design. However, as hard as they are trying to make it not their fault tells the real story.

Tom, excellent video. I just found your FB page regarding frame flex and answered the questions. I'm going through this right now, have an open case with Grand Design. It's certainly quickly becoming a very hot topic. I have a Tech with Grand Design coming on Monday to our site here in Arizona, we winter here from Minnesota. 2022 Solitude 380FL, bought brand new, only been towed about 7,000 miles. I decided to be proactive and start looking harder at mine. Sure enough, it's starting, the clear evidence is everywhere. I fully agree with you, Grand Design needs to issue an immediate recall. Had I not been proactive, by the time I really found out that my unit is affected by this, I would have been well out of my warranty timeframe. Although I appreciate Josh's efforts, I kind of felt like the softball questions were scripted, and you could tell he was somewhat gingerly trying not to step on any toes or place too much blame where it's due. I am exceptionally anal retentive about what weights I carry, how it's displaced in the camper, never overloading, never haul with anything in the holding tanks, tow exclusively with a 1 ton dually to make sure I'm well within my limits. In my opinion this is clearly on Grand Design for turning in engineered specs to Lippert for production. I even spoke with a Lippert frame technician who told me the frames are built to Grand Designs specifications. But, now I'm seeing other 'flexers' talking about how bad some welds are coming out of Lippert. Grand Design has been very helpful every step of the way, I certainly had to do my diligence in filling out their questionnaire, in providing very detailed photos and so on. I understand the manufacturer needs to be discreet in a claim, rightfully so. This is our 3rd Grand Design product. We 'CHOSE' the company based on reputation, we knew we were spending more money in order to buy quality, much like we do when we 'CHOOSE' to buy Harley Davidson. Let's see how the company does when things blow up even more when more buyers begin having problems with this issue. It's not a matter of if, it's when. Now we're feeling like we're stuck with a camper that even when fixed by the manufacturer, wont be worth much due to a tarnished stain on the reputation of the company. I even found 2 GD owners who had the repairs done at the factory, and claimed that within another 5-10K miles................... it's happening again. That said do I feel comfortable having the repairs done at the factory and sending down the road? I can honestly say I do not.

LOL 1/8" frame is Not 'IF' it is gonna break Its when it is gonna break. RV frames are designed like a Baltimore bridge or a airplane wing, strong until impact

It obviously is NOT widespread. The manufacturers ship around 75,000-80,000 per year on average. Assuming 400,000 sold over the last five years means 2,000 units at 0.5%. It sounds like it's far less than 2,000.

These companies that DO NOT stand behind their product(s) failing/breaking, etc...are not going unnoticed and they WILL NOT be able to wash their hands without having their reputation ruined. Do you remember how quickly Bud Lite sales diminished and how much of a financial hit AB took? Everyone I know who is currently or plans on buying RV's, have said they are no longer going to consider or look at products from Grand Design. Keep it up GD and sit back and watch your sales plummet.

Live within 60 miles of nw Indiana RV manufactures. Several are laying off workers. Good luck getting any help from them . Keep up the good work on getting the word out.

I think it’s a combination of things. My custom 5th wheel triple axle toyhauler is meant to carry a vehicle with a cargo capacity of about 9,000 lbs. It weighs 12,300 lbs dry and a GWVR of 21k. With my Jeep and all the water, gas, and gear it weighs about 17,500lbs. I have no issues taking it into the mountains on the crappiest roads. It sits on a Lippert frame. But seeing my trailer next to a 40+ GD Momentum with a crazy dry weight of 17,000 lbs the differences are obvious. Mine has a thicker frame, more supports at the walls, extra support for under the front bedroom area. I really think RV manufacturers are specifying the cheapest Lippert frame they think they can get away with and then putting more on it than the frame can handle especially at speed. Why do you think some of the cargo capacities you see on these giant 5th wheels are a paltry 1,500 lbs to 3,000lbs max? It’s like manufacturers using a cheaper Schwintek slide mechanism that is only intended for small slides but sticking them on a full body kitchen slide with a heavy fridge in it. What do you think is going to happen. There definitely needs to be some standards and regulation similar to the automobile industry.

Great Video!! Thanks for helping people.

If you look at the size of that behemoth and what that small chunk of steel is to support , it's no wonder it falls apart .

I've seen videos that manufacturers are saying that we tow too much. That's what causes the problem. It is a trailer it spoes to be designed to be towed.

We have a brand new 35' fifth wheel (not Grand D) and have not seen this issue...yet . However, I'm a little DYI and have already repaired several things that are ridiculous, considering how the manufacturers fly the "Quality" and "Owner Empowerment" banners to the consumers. I don't know why we put up with it. If you paid that kind of money for a truck or a car, we wouldn't! However, those purchases are more necessity driven, where RV purchases are not, and mostly not even financially sound decisions. Also, I, as many others, avoid if possible returning the RV to a shop fearing the amount of time it takes to make even the simpler repais! If the FF issue was an insignificant 1/2 of 1 %, then why aren't the manufacturers proactive and correcting the issue? The liabilities (especially for potential injury...or worse) for even that % could be staggering, especially with the KZfaq and Facebook documentations of manufacturing and dealer apathy!

I am wanting to go full time, but with what I see that is going on with Grand Design and Lippert frames, I think the Momentum is off the chart. Which has been my first choice. But….. seeing others dealing with the same thing on social media, have to rethink the entire situation. Grand Design needs to step up when people spend that amount of $ on a rig. It is a shame. Thank you for the information. I also watch other channels dealing with the same issue.

Tom, as one of the 3 site admins (Pete West), I want to thank you for doing your part to bring attention to this frame failure problem. I hope more RVContent Creators (KZfaqrs) will also help out. Also, thank you for giving the "Grand Design RV Frame Failure" Facebook site a shoutout/plug. We really are working hard at getting more accurate stats from other 5th wheel RV owners so that we can bring more attention to this industry problem. Clearly some manufacturers are keeping silent. With videos like this and support of so many people on our site and beyond, we hope to finally stop talking about it and start doing something about it with real action.

Im not full time. Im only winter time to Texas. I have no facebook page and wont ever have a facebook page due my complete dislike for its owner. Grand Design cares about one thing. How much money is in there pocket. There is more than your model that suffers from poor workmanship from Grand Design. I have a friend who owns a Reflection and hes had issues with roofs not staying on and now a leaking slide. When he bought his there were several others on the lot with bubbling roofs. Good Luck with yours. Ive seen Paving New Paths and My Bucket list day with the same issues. Im not sure Id want GD to fix mine as they already had there chance to fix one and it broke again. Gives me the feeling they dont have a clue what to do. Wishing you the best of luck but me I wouldnt walk across the street to look at a GD.

The flex issue is mainly on the units that have FL. Front slides on them. There is a major issue with that. And it is all makes. Ours is one . 2012 3495FL Alpine Keystone. The pics I have will scare the crap out of ya.

Everyone needs to contact their local representative and push them to address this matter. Standards are not where they need to be for RVs. They are charging way too much for inferior products.

Very well said. It is commendable for you to use your channel to help find a solution to this issue. Unfortunately the OEM's have an easy way out, they just have to say the RV was overloaded with no burden of proof on them to prove it. If you get enough owners with this issue, you could take it to your legislators to push some accountability for resolution.

We figure we had a frame issue with our 2018 5th wheel. The floor/sidewall caulking at the front started to separate by up to 3/4 of an inch. One side was worse than the other. We contacted the dealer and manufacturer who both told us that the unit was out of warranty and basically too bad. I contacted the frame manufacturer who opened a case number and told me to have the unit inspected by a repudiable dealer to find the results. We took the 5th wheel to a dealer who removed most of the front section but could not find and broken weld. They did find that the plywood floor was not installed with long enough screws at the time of the build which may have cause the seam separation. They measured the frame off and on the tow vehicle found that the flex was within spec of the frame manufacture. For this I was out of pocket over 2K. I was hoping a broken weld or cracked frame was found because I believe it would have been taken care of by the manufacturer of the frame in question.

The only way a recall would occur is if it is required by the NTSB. People need to report these issues to the NTSB and be seen as a safety issue. GD will not take the financial costs unless they are forced.

Tom, I took the course and it was fine but it needs to be updated Many components are outdated. Thanks.

Thanks Tom. Hope to hear about your RV's issue soon.

One would think if flex goes on long enough, it will result in a failure, possibly a catastrophic failure. Makes me wonder about the problems before the quality issues that have manifested itself due to rushed construction and substitution of materials not originally designated for the units.

Here's the thing, the manufacturers (Grand Design, DRV, Lippert, and whomever else) better all get together on this and soon. Each report should be investigated and a determination made as to what caused it. No matter the cause, a good faith repair should be made by each manufacturer despite it's warranty status. I'm guessing the delays in action are due to behind the scenes finger pointing. No matter, they need to come up with a plan and help folks out before this turns into a class action lawsuit or a recall mandated by the government. Or both!

We had the frame flex with our Keystone Montana a year after we bought it new. Keystone did authorize the repair at Affinity in Goshen but refused any reimbursement for being displced for a week. I pointed out that this was an engineering and design flaw in their big 5th wheels that they know about and has been going on for years.

Tishomingo service center in Mississippi

These are just my rambling thoughts, I can't remember hearing about any "frame flex" prior to 2019. I'm wondering if the quality of the steel isn't as good today as it was let's say in 2014,15,16, etc. Also has the quality of welding diminished from pre-covid years to present day? One welder skills could be the problem. I'm sure Lippert and Grand Design looked at this but who knows if the public or courts would ever know the real truth. Another thought that comes to mind, did the engineers of the different manufacturers decide a thinner piece of steel could be used to save money and weight? After all, accountants and lawyers make as many decisions as the engineers these days. Great video and I think reporting any frame flex or cracks to the NHTSA is something anyone who owns one of these failing frames should do.

Good job Tom, this is a great video. I bet this videos going to get a lot of views👍🇺🇲

The problem with finding good trailer techs is that they are extremely busy fixing commercial trailers. Commercial trailers are put through an enormous amount of stress on a daily basis and if they are sitting in a shop, they aren't making money and paying for themselves. Your best bet is to go to a welding shop and have them just repair any faulty welds that they find.

Grand Design could fix the problem on new models by rethinking the front frame. Take a look at the steel construction of River Stone 5th wheel models.

Grand design advertising that their campers are a full time option. A full time rver will put 25k miles on the rig plus a year …

All frames are designed to flex .. what your talking about is frame failures…

we have a 2022 Keystone Fuzion. We bought brand new. We have the same problem. Its all manufactures

25 grand the average cost to fix ! On a 1 to 3 year old rig !

I am still trying to figure out the bulging on my walls is related to frame flex. The floor above the stairs actually separated from the sidewall, the screws snapped. There appears to be delam on the lower rear corner of the bedroom slide on the wall. What it looks like are vertical bulges where one would assume the wall studs are.

Josh says it a very low percentage of 5th wheel trailers with this problem. What is that percentage based on? Total 5th wheel trailers or trailers that are 40 foot and longer? I’m hearing it’s the 40 foot and longer trailers with this problem. I don’t have a 40 foot 5th wheel, but I hope for the best with those that do.

Would love to go over these issues with you. I have the how and why on all of these chassis. My shops specialize in these. Were west coast but fly nationwide to asses them.

Great video. It’s a very sad situation for many RVers with 5ers.

Be careful what you ask for. I am a retired state legislator. Government loves to regulate industries. They only grow in their controls over time and therefore increase expenses to that industry. These are passed on to the consumer. If the frame manufacturer and/or RV manufacturer pay for this, all RV owners will pay for it. This will not only be in money but also in requirements as owners of our RV’s. For example - annual inspections (that we will pay for), weigh station log books, and even longer wait lines at repair shops. I do believe there are problems. But I also believe the root causes are more than just the fault of RV manufacturers. However, if the burden is placed solely on them, they will make decisions and implement policies RV’ers may not like.

Good luck with that recall. That's the thing with the RV industry in that they are so unregulated and can do just about anything they want to do that it will be hard to force them to agree to that.

These rigs are just to big and heavy. Not saying its right that so many people spent all that money . My opinion is that there is no fix ....gussets and rewelding just will bring back the same issues. Manufacturers should buy back these units but they are drowning in black tank water.

How many miles on the Momentum?

1/2 of 1 percent just means 1 in 200 units have this problem. That's still a lot. If this is true just Grand Design has thousands of RVs on the road the have this problem

I am sure i have it and it may have been on ours since we got it in 2018. We bought ours used in 2018. I am having some of the interior trims, and other things.

Did u guys have an RV inspection done? Just curious, doubtful they could catch frame issues but if there are signs that can be caught during an inspection would be good to know or share.

If all of the frames were made the same then eventually all will fail. As for the .01% line, sounds BS. Are they counting everything from pop ups to motorcoaches. What about fifth wheel frames from 2015 til present in and out of warranty? How could they possibly know about the 5th wheels out of warranty.

Just a question; we just bought a Grand Design Imagine (26' Tag along). Is the frame flex issue mostly in the larger 5th wheels or in all trailers?

Thank you👍🏻

I think with your trailer Tom, is that your toy hauler is not full of ATV’s! And you pull with an appropriate size truck! All this frame issue comes from over loaded behind the trailer axles and to small of a truck. We are full timers and see so many rigs such as short box 3/4 and 1 ton SRW doing at least 80mph on the freeway pulling a 38’ and bigger. The chucking and pitching you see on there units is unreal. Then they think the cure is to put rubber solid block stoppers between there spring packs and frames. At some point all that shock and movement has to transfer somewhere and yes to your frame! And again with your warranty explanation, this also could be difficult! Not everyone is a resort to resort princess traveller! We just spent 4 months in Arizona and these big rigs come in so deep into the desert thru washes and bad terrain, pulling a 2nd trailer and the hauler is full as well. What do people expect for 100k trailer to do all of the above, a lot of it is miss abuse. I have watched you for along time and you are one of the ones that need to be taken care of!

Last week Lippert told me I would not be covered under warranty if I used a GEN Y pin box.

Tom, since it has happened on Chaparral, Alliance, and Grand Design. It sounds like it’s more a Lippert problem, Then a manufacturing problem.

Good video 😊 just saying it's frame damage not frame flex the frame doesn't flex the hitch takes up all movement between truck and trailer

Thank you for your courage in calling out this dangerous issue. A few years ago, we spent nearly $90k for a new RV that arrived with multiple, myriad issues. When we reported this on the website, complete with dated photographs (to prove that it arrived this way), we were attacked, our comments taken down, and then we were kicked off the site. We spent a year making our own repairs before we were able to use it. For any doubters, we stand with you - these things DO happen. There absolutely needs to be a watchdog organization for RV safety and quality issues - lives are at stake.

Great vid thank for speaking for the rest of us

One topic you didn't cover is which Grand Design models are having this problem ? Is it all 5th wheel or just the bigger models ie momentum and solitude or reflection as well .We use an Anderson gooseneck system which let the trailer have more mobility when maneuvering and seems to be less stress on the pin box. We also do not do alot of boon docking which could also have an affect on the pin box . Thank for an info.

Someone may have asked this, but do you think frame flex is more typical of full timers? since their RV Or yours in this case is in constant use.

Hey Tom, this is Larry with downsizing makes cents. It was great running into you at the tampa show. What do you think about JDs video with BTBRV, interviewing lippert people. He really seems like he is helping lippert share the message they want to deliver.. Our RV got totaled a couple of months ago because of frame damage, we just moved into our new fifth wheel a couple of days ago. Our frame bent from an issue on the road, but our insurance is covering it. Larry

We were censored. Our post were deleted. we went on the problems forum and were stalked and harassed.

Grand Design and Lippert having a Boeing 737 MAX experience.

Hang on……there is way more to this than just blaming the frame manufacturer. Could be using the wrong king box, overloaded the rig, water leaks, or the manufacturer of the trailer failed…. Love your show

What is the name of your extended warranty company?

Around 8 min mark, you mentioned a non GD affiliated channel that can help compile #'s of owners in this situation. Would.like to provide my info as a fellow GD owner in same boat.

250,000 moving parts and all built by the cheapest bidders..... Assembled by sober humans.... Hopefully!!! Engineered to be used 2-4 weeks a year and no more than 50-75 miles from home..... then back in storage .. . Thank you Blackrock, Vanguard, Berkshire Hathaway, All big money investors own the RV manufacturers... and took the quality and flushed it.

Maybe a class action lawsuit is in order!

I personally don't care for anything that came from the company starting with L. Most of our Grand Design failures have come from Lippert products. Well.....also the Chinese made fridge that many rv manufacturers insisted on using for years.

This is a issue between the customers and manufacturers. As I understand it maybe a case of overloading a RV. How many RV owners have had there RV weighed?. Also I heard Toy haulers have more of this issue due to weight.

You have a better chance of recalling Gavin the governor in ca… just saying. My heart goes out to you and everyone who has this problem.. just not going to happen. Possibly? lippert will get a court order to repair all.. so they will squeeze you in the summer of 2028.

I don't like Grand Designs attitude here, but I also feel like we need to know more about how RVs with problems have been used. Toyhaulers are designed with extra pin weight to counter heavy toys in back but many people aren't putting heavy loads in back and at the same time putting things like heavy lithium systems in front. Overloading in general could be another issue. These same people also love boondocking and you wouldn't believe how rough some trails I've seen these things on. Just a quick heads up folks, a 20,000lb RV probably shouldn't be on the same trails you'd take your Jeep.

Thank you, Thank You!!! Loved seeing a photo of our Momentum in your video. It has cracked welds and I'm getting ready to pull the cap off.

I feel the pain for those of you that have this issue. I don’t see how they can rectify this situation. There’s not enough repairmen in the field to even address this issue much less qualified welders to put a Band-Aid fix on a losing situation. I foresee hundreds if not thousands of RVs sitting at RV dealerships for years, waiting for this to be repaired. We got cold feet over this issue 3 months ago and traded our Grand Design Solitude in on a class A motor coach. Never looked back at our decision. Good luck getting a Resolution.

Maybe this will drive down the cost of Fifth wheels. Especially since I’m going to be trying to get one in the near future.

As a rv owner you can watch every utube vidio and at no point are the manufacturer is not going to say to the owner TO BAD TO SAD GO AWAY.

I own a 44ft toyhauler and a 4 horse horse trailer with living quarters and I wish I had never bought my Rv. Not as big of living space but makes up in the quality and structure.

Not in the RV industry they don’t take responsibility for anything. They sell mostly crap.

Grand design is in trouble

Sounds more like a lippert problem than a grand design problem. Lippert frames are used on a variety of rv companies.

Great video on Frame Flex-LIPPERT Answers Questions about RV FRAME FLEX! Part 1 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/faxdn9Z7nMmcpps.html

I just would not buy these big campers. Too much weight built over cheap frames and structures. The manfactures are really doing AWFUL things. Since I had my Trip to hell with my old Class A motorhoime i the 80s, I have had small pull trailers. I have been so lucky. I owner a HI LO with a roll out room for l5 yrs. Never a problem at all. I now have a rockwood 24 foot camper. Keep my fingers crossed. this is just sickening. Its great you are talking about this and I am glad that Liz Amazing is talking about all these nightmares. Enjoy you guys. thanks. I am in Ocala. fl. Maybe We can see you sometime.

Sounds serious

Grand designs or grand disappointment. Over priced with great marketing. Do your research!!!!

G.D = Great Disappointment

I agree and disagree , yes a recall , no "flex" shouldnt happen . A actual Fith wheel trailer was converted to a camper , the pin plate is very very thick and the frame is very very rugged , to prevent movement . The camoer frames are way too light duty and a pry bar is moubted on the bottom creating more tourqe , twisting upward not a flat pull horizontally .

Great kiteboarding spot.

I think if one wants to get to the bottom of this frame failure it will require lawyers, engineering guns, and money. Absent a demonstrable compromise of materials, assembly or construction methods of the frame; or of defective original design weight distribution or other design defect, the variables of tow vehicle and operator have a significant influence. I'm not blaming the victim, nor do I hold owner/operators faultless - what is happening is likely a result of a combination of sub-optimal practices, loading up to design limits on a continuous basis, operator inexperience in recognizing suspension under stress, and a long list of dynamic loading issues. But looking at some of these failures on YT, it looks like a great deal of vertical force is transferred to the riser, which results in side wall failures, or the force compromises the pin box or the structure it is attached to (plus whatever other damage may have occurred). This makes me think the suspensions of the trailer and of the tow vehicle, when viewed as a 'system', is a system working against itself. If this is even partially causal to the failures being reported, the question becomes how do we make a more harmonious suspension system predictable in simulation, and what can we do in the mean time to minimize such a contribution in existing RVs?

Tom; totally disagree with your assessment of failure flex. The frame that the RV sits on HAS to be rigid. The axles and wheels are the only things that should move! A good example of this is your car or truck… if the frame were to move with your analogy it would snap the body of the car; that’s why there are axles with springs!!

Tom food for thought. In future videos stop showing and talking about the frame damage on your previous Cougar trailer. Some people look at that video and ASSUME that’s your current RV. You’re another voice and we appreciate that. Keep us informed about you current RV. This only a suggestion on my part.

Lippert ought to know what the weak spots are in their minimum spec, minimum $ frame builds, and refuse to build them that cheap. If Lippert told the RV companies to pound sand when they ask for a wimpy frame, they'd pay for it. It's unlikely they'll all get together to form a company to make their own cheap/wimpy frames. When is there likely to be a recall? When a pinbox rips off one and a huge 5th wheel trailer gets scattered across a freeway. That could've happened to that Bucket List Day, his was only hanging on by the ends of one crossbeam. Grand design did a bunch of welding, added several gussets, and destroyed most of his appliances and electronics because they didn't disconnect the batteries before hitting the frame with an arc welder. So they got to pay for most of that damage. But the fix didn't stay fixed. Welds broke and last video of his I watched he's parked his trailer somewhere in the south, looking for a way to get it fixed again, in a way that will stay fixed.

I will say Thank You on behalf of those who are currently and most importantly those who have YET to have a problem... those overconfident "not me" counters before they hatchers.. aka "Foot in Mouthers" Thanks for getting involved to help others in true need. ~dnicely~

It’s bigger than you think stand bye your brand. Mfg

The utube channel paving new paths has frame flex and the company is telling them they have to pay for it to be fixed themselves , it's crazy this company is not fixing the problem

Well Tom here’s my take. It doesn’t matter how small a percentage of issues with frames are to grand design. They need to realize that the majority of they buyers they have are hard working blue collar workers that are still working or retired. And there are people whom have worked hard and done even better. They go out and buy this fabulous Grand Design fifth wheel and get kiss assed from them then presto, there’s a serious problem, frame is broke, distorted. Well as far as I’m concerned it’s lippert fault as well as grand design. Grand design can afford to fix these problems even as far as giving them a new one free of cost. I have never owned a fifth wheel or never will from all the issues I see and also I hope that more and more consumers of the junk they produce take serious action against them, they’ve already got shit on they’re face so let’s bury them. And better yet maybe the industry should stop making fifth wheels all together. I rejoice when I see a manufacturer go under, simply put they have screwed us one too many times,, and I hope to see a couple of big ones go down permanently. Grand design and all of Thor industries are tyrants and sand pounders.