Dr C, it was such a pleasure having this discussion with you, thank you for having me on your podcast and channel, I would love to do this again! You built such an amazing community of people dedicated to their healing, I will be reading all of the comments on this video. Thanks again for having me

Two years ago, I finally broke away completely (no contact) from my toxic family. Always the scapegoat. I am seventy years old, and I feel so much better.

We are fortunate to have the wisdom of Jerry Wise and Les Carter together!! Much gratitude. 💞💞💞💞💞💞💞

My family is falling apart because I removed my invisible name-tag ‘Scapegoat’. They no longer find relief or release from me. I removed the buttons they push. It’s getting ugly. The reality is its been ugly since day one. Everyday means more as you respect yourself from a place of peace. Thanks be to God.

When God saved me, I finally had a Father who accepted me unconditionally. I was able to disconnect from all the demands and judgements of my earthly father. I was set free indeed.

Narcissists will trade you the worst of themselves for the best of you. It's a really bad transaction!

“There is still a healthy person in there.” Omg I needed to hear this

Wow, I tuned in at the right time. My 87 year old dad has been guilting me and shaming me, making me feel like I'm a stupid teenager again. Dad, look at me, I'm 61, not 16!

"Calmness is everything". That's right on but sooo difficult to master. Growing up in a narcissistic family system is akin to being raised in a cult. You've been programmed from birth to react and behave in a very specific way. And even after you recognize that fact you still experience the same reaction when you're triggered.

It's never too late to undo the damage others have caused us and forge ahead!

In my thirties, when I found out that NPD was actually a clinical diagnosis and not just my mom being the queen from Snow White, it changed EVERYTHING for me. Understanding that trying to love my mother and be a part of her life was akin to trying to safely handle a rod of cobalt was what finally allowed me to go no contact and start reclaiming myself. I think understanding what is wrong with the other person can sometimes help us finally detach for real, without the burden of an overwhelming guilt plaguing us the whole time we try and move on. It can be so unbelievably liberating to finally know that it's really not your fault and actually had nothing to do with you from the beginning, and more importantly that there's absolutely nothing you can do to change them. After the grief of losing the relationship, and the healing that needs to happen after for a bit, comes the joy of learning to love yourself.

Love Mr. Wise! He certainly lives up to his surname.👌

My first time hearing Dr. Wise and I like him! A lot of us grew up hearing that "selflessness" is a virtue. We have to put our oxygen masks on first. We're no good to others if we're not first okay 💜🐾

I lost ME so long ago that I have no idea who that is. I remember trying to be the PERFECT child, the one who takes care of EVERYONE ELSE , so I wouldn't suffer the rath of an alcoholic father with a raging temper. I then married a narcissist at 19 and I disappeared even more because as we all know, nothing you ever do is right or good enough for a narcissist. Left him at 30. My oldest son is also a toxic narcissist/alcoholic and I'm the target. My sister is a narcissist too. Also had a narcissist for a manager at work in my later years and finally walked out of there one day after 15 years. I have cowered and been silenced for years. I attract them like flies to cow dung! I am SO reactive and can never find my words......until 24 hours later. I have been working at being non reactive, especially when I'm blindsided, but completely cutting them out of my life is hard, especially my son. I'm 69 now and still find myself being the cowering 5 yr. old at times. This was helpful to listen to, thank you both.

Such an important topic. So many of us raised by malignant narcissistic parents, we children, spend so much time having to behave in the manner the way our parents expect us to be... extentions of them... and in this brainwashing, we lose ourselves. No wonder so many us of, later in life will invariably end up asking ourselves, ' Do i like this because my mother/father expects it of me, or do I like this because, *I* generally, really like this...'

Wow 😮 outstanding to invite him as a guest! His knowledge is fantastic! I follow him as he covers different angle of narcissism! The family evil and scapegoating the good kid! The title here of this one got me teary 😢

Replacing the word "supply" with "self" really helped me.

My husband tells me my cure for having been the scapegoat is to care for myself.

You are the 2 main people I follow on Narcissism.. I think both of you do an amazing job..

my 2 favorite podcasters having a conversation this morning. what a gift

PLEASE JERRY AND DR. C …have more videos together because I watch both of yours all the time and to see you both together is just so so fun. God bless you. From JANESVILLE, WISCONSIN USA

Dr C, just yesterday I was hoping you’d have Jerry Wise on as a guest. Both have been instrumental in my healing ❤ Much gratitude for both!

As one gets older. one reflects..We have all done things that we regret and feel guilt and regret and shame even..We grow..Narcissistic people are very rigid..Absolutely no regrets for nothing. Basically, they have never done anything wrong. It's such a telltale sign that something is off

I love Jerry's differentiation of real shame versus the false shame they project onto you. That's a huge shift in perception for me.

Much Respect to You Both 💞 Here's To Being Wise, & Dignity Respect Civility ♡

Loaning Self!!! Calmness Is Everything!!! Freakin' Brilliant!!!

Two angels sent by God to help the hurting. Thank you very much for all you do. Love and peace.

Two of my favourite experts on narcissism here on YT, together! What a treat. Thank you!

I was the shattered but not completely annihilated scapegoat. I started to rebuild and integrate in my late 40's, I just turned 60 and I am happy with my progress. I found these videos in my mid 50's and finally learned about my life story. These videos are invaluable and both of you are saving more lives than you know, I can't thank you enough. My health has improved to the point that people tell me I'm aging backwards. Still damaged, but not broken.

Almost 5 years ago both of you were instrumental in helping me realize the depth of narcissism in my life. I have been free of them since. I'm 67 and so enjoying my own path, not someone else's agenda. So nice to see you both at the same time! Thanks so much for your wise counseling!

This is SO terrifyingly accurate . I KNOW that I lent my ENTIRE self (as well as my family) to my ex spouse. And he heartily borrowed and took every ounce that he could. Mind you, he despised us all BUT he liked that he could capitalize (and weaponize) everything that was “attractive” and made HIM look attractive by PROXY. It is sad that it all makes sense that I often had to tell him “You like the IDEA of me but you don’t like ME.” I had NO IDEA of how truthful a statement that was way back when I first started saying that to him. He liked the IDEA of a nice family (and its resources) a faithful wife, beautiful children, but in reality, he resented and despised all the accountability and the fact that we would attempt to hold boundaries when the bad behavior popped up. As he is now my EX, you can imagine how THAT worked out. But I have never been happier or freer than when cut the ties with the narc ex. I am free. He most definitely is NOT (none of them are)

The forces of good unite! Can't wait :)

You are two beautiful souls helping a lot of people. And....its interesting that one was a pastor and the other is a pastors son....God is in this message! Thank you both.

If I bring calmness and life experience to the table, as I am now past 70, and my controlling person brings chaos and anger, how do I not "Borrow" That? That seems to be the trick. For me, it means making sure to spend enough time alone in my own reality, apart from their broken record chaos and vitriolic raging about all the same old same olds. Yep, frequent re- centering seems to help.

I was told to "GET BACK IN THE FAMILY" I was living with my parents at the time ⏲️ but I had stepped out of my position in the family and was making changes 🙃 my position was scapegoat....when I moved, the smear campaign started and I lost my entire family including children. I must say after I processed the loss and grieved adequately NOW MY LIFE IS DRAMA FREE AND ITS LIKE A PERPETUAL VACATION. VERY CALM, PEACEFUL AND JOYOUS 😊

The concept of the pseudoself is hard for people to grasp unless they have had a narcissist attach and drain them of self, returning to them the negative self or "internal chaos" from inside the narcissist. It's a process, and amounts to spiritual warfare. I am surprised I ever came to a point of breaking through my denial, so I can see it. Thank you for this presentation.

This topic is exactly what I’ve needed-I’ve often felt profoundly sad that “I didn’t get to be me” and I’d love to rebuild my life. I was raised to be “other-focused” and not self-focused and it’s so hard and discouraging. It’s hard to get interested or excited about doing things for me because it was never allowed to produce any results I could enjoy. Anyway, thank you both for this wonderful video. 🙏🏻

Learned calm firmness and confidence in the school of hard knocks. I'm 66 and survivor of several narcissists; believe them, it's the only thing that works. That and gray rocking.

Jerry Wise" so many people try to go out and change others when they themselves are not changed". Sir Wise that was fire. Thank you for that statement. I wish I learned that sooner in my christian walk. 28:37.

I see a placard with, "The malignant narcissist will never react well." Useful to remember 🎉🎉🎉

Both together in conversation? I’m much looking foward to that!

OH MY GOD I'VE BEEN WATCHING BOTH THESE GENTLEMEN FOR YEARS AND TO SEE THEM IN THE SAME VIDEO MADE MY DAY!!!!

Dr. C you are so gracious to provide JW with this wider exposure! God bless both of you!

I think parents should be responsible not for their kids, but rather being a parent to them. Such as loving them and guiding them in way that recognizes who they are as a separate individual.

Thank you both for solidifying what I learned and knew as true for decades. I've made decisions for my life as I saw fit and learned to effectively deal with the backlash from family who want to "should" all over my life. My life's mantra: "You will always be too much - or not enough - for the wrong people." Sometimes that includes your own family!

Really hit me hard, what would happen if you gave up the guilt and shame. I really needed to hear this as I progress. My mother is the guilt queen from the snivelling the looks the things she says despite the hurt and harm those words and looks do, like daggers to my heart. My feelings don't matter, I'm the bad seed in her eyes. Then it flips to the sugary sweet hugs and helpfulness. The trauma bond is lessening but letting go of guilt is the final hold ✌

Thank you for the support of this wonderful collaboration. I appreciate your teachings, fellas.

So glad to see two of my favourites together!

Both of these great men have helped tremendously!

Two legends! Buckle up!!!!

I am so happy to see this crossover! Thank you, gentlemen!

Whew!! Yes (I haven’t finished the whole video yet)- my road to beginning the process of acting upon my own true self and building my life around it- that has been confidence! Identifying what my feelings vs their feelings and perceptions, identifying my emotional+thought compulsive responses to their stuff and what the purposes of my responses were, and then seeing myself for who I actually am. Then I was able to begin the process of choosing myself and managing my emotions and then slowly moving through layers of grief. It’s worth it, and I’m not even on the other side of it yet ❤❤❤

Dear Jerry Wise and Les Carter, you are my most favourite people in the field of narcissism. You truly helped me to SAVE MY LIFE. TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY. THANK YOU. Please, a lot of videos together! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

I love the fact that Dr Les who worked his whole life with this topic still invites people and scan internet, read books and so on to even learn more. ❤ Thank you!

What a Dream Team! Thanks for this beautiful "session"! Big takeaway: changing another person...when a tree falls in the forest, it immediately and forever changes the environment around it. More sun, less competition for nutrients, etc.. But THE TREE itself was the ONLY CHANGE that INITIALLY happened. Changing ourselves WILL change the dynamics of our immediate or extended family, but we are only responsible for ourselves. Its not our responsibility to change others. This allows Freedom and Peace into our lives, and creates new solutions and new decisions. Thank you both for your amazing skills.

This is the dynamic duo of being wise and having dignity respect and civility. I am a long time listener of these great and compassionate men who pour love and peace into all they touch. Thank you for encouraging me to get to know me. ☺

Two good teachers - thank you both!

Perfectly explains why I always felt like a dumpster where my mother would dump all of her endless complaints, discomfort with everything, frustrations, petty dramas, all kinds of drama, worries, gossips, conflicts with ppl ,all her energetic and mental garbage and negativity. That was the most attention I had from her, besides taking some care of me when I’d get sick, no wonder why I was always sick and I confirmed it’s cause of my body was trying to fight off all that negativity and obtain some motherly care 💔

I like that: 'Emotional location' in the family. I have never heard that before.

Great title, that is exactly what I've been working on. I feel alone in the real world but feel the rain drops of validation from jerry wise, patrick teahan, many more. Xx

The world needs this wisdom!

Ooh a collab with Jerry Wise!! ❤ I love his channel too, I can't wait to see this one!!

My two favorite dudes!

Thank you, Dr. C and Jerry or standing up for God and not being ashamed to mention Him and not side step. GOD WILL HONOR AND BLESS YOU VERY MUCH.

Two of my favorite counselors together! I love that Mr. Wise specifically addresses the family dynamics of growing up in a dysfunctional family. You have both been such a help to me, thank you.

He's like a wise brother. You're still "my Dad"!!!

I love it when emotionally intelligent helpful kind psychologists collaborate!!❤thank you both for everything!

When I was about 7 or 8 my father sat me down and gave me a harangue about how awful women are, how women are responsible for everything bad in the world, how men are never at fault. I have never known who I really am. The only time I felt any sense of self was when I was completely alone. I grew up thinking that I was worthless and bad. My mother, was a very kind hearted person but back in those days husbands and fathers had the last word. She tried to protect my sister and I and keep the family together by telling us “Your father is always right, he’s never wrong, never question him, never argue, never talk back, never ask for things, do exactly as he tells you. Our job in life was to keep our father in a good humor. That wasn’t easy, but I worked hard at it. My older sister didn’t try very hard to keep him happy and so he treated her horribly. He tried to get me to participate with him in emotionally abusing her, and sometimes I went along with it. I felt and still feel really bad about that. I was an anxious little kid who picked at sores on my legs which my father thought was a sign of insanity. The word anxiety never came up in our family. Later I found out that my father thought it was a form of insanity and self indulgence. My mother passed away in 2006. Papa passed away in 2012. He became more manipulative after my mother died. I still have the same distressing startle reflex and self doubt I had as a kid. I was married to an abuser and chronic liar for 16 years. He died in a road accident one night and I never remarried. I don’t need another boss. It is good that there are people like you who help the children and spouses of narcissists.

This applies 100% to my narc ex-husband and his super-narc parents: They were all EXTREMELY skilled at ‘managing’ their calmness and showing zero reactions so they can inject their malignant, manipulative, toxic opinions and behavior into anyone that was not with them, and then stand by and watch the reactive fruits of their plantings. This talk would go down as N/A to them.

This was absolutely tremendous, Thank you so much for this DR Les and Jerry, You're right they want to fill you with them, They steal you, You're qualities, Talents, Personality, Creative mind, Duplication, Deception, All glory to the universe, The most high, God is great, Discernment, Peace, love, Respect to you both and everyone, Thank you universe 🌷🐎🌲👽😍🌝🦄🌹🐉🌌💚🌈😃🕊🦁😇💛💜☘😊

Love Jerry's channel! He does a great job of explaining things within the context of a toxic family system. The family system context opened up a whole new understanding for me. It also helped explain why when we call things out, the *system* reacts to try and keep us in line. It helped me understand why I had to go no contact with my family of origin, and not just the main abuser in the family.

This is nice.. rebuilding your core self after being so abused.. music to my ears ❤ I still have fear of this happening again. I think its more of them emptying you & I am not giving.

Jerry Wise was one of the few calm, sensible voices that helped me find my way through the painful maze of dealing with a toxic family of origin. When he desceibed a conversation in which his mother was "pinging" him about his hair being too long, and he asked "does it bother you, because it doesn't bother me." My head nearly exploded because I recognized so clearly the subtext of 99% of my 'sweet little old lady' mother's communications - "you need to figure out what I want from you, do it, and feel guilty about being a disappointment to me, always." I now weigh her every word against "is this a me problem or a her problem?" I stopped being her #1 target about a year ago, and she's very salty about that, but she's aware I'm no longer concerned about her snarky remarks, silent treatment and temper trantrums. I can't even work up the energy to get angry because life's too short and beautiful to try to logic with a toddler.

Wow this is awesome my 2 favorite together! ❤️❤️ I will listen to this ⚡️⚡️💪💪

For someone previously trapped in one of these family systems, this episode is just mins blowing clarity. Thanks Jerry for explaining things so clearly. The discussion about what happens when you don't get back in line was just too accurate

Two of my favorites in one place! This is a great topic - thank you both!! 🙏

Oh Dr. Carter!!! Homerun out of the ballpark! Jerry Wise is wise! And so are you, good Doctor! Thank you. Needed this today!!!

Dr. Carter, you are my guardian angel! After a hundred videos on NPD and HSP, I still learn from you. My "mother" would frequently make comments such as "why don't you be more like your sister!", "why don't you be more like so-in-so" - all through my adolescence. I was a good kid, her house cleaner, her groomer, her baby sitter, yet I was never enough and I was her scapegoat. At the peak of this abuse to my character, my very existence . . . I lost my voice at age 13. If forced, I stuttered. Now, I understood that I had been so annihilated, that I developed "mutism". I simply lost my voice or maybe it was my will to speak. I moved far far from this home and found myself in a few years and my voice returned. Yet, I still struggle with thoughts of those years, the constant and subtle put-downs. I take anti-depressants to ward off the blues. When I heard your video on how these NPD try to empty one, steal who they are, annihilate a child at their core . . . I'm grateful that you understand this and are here to validate me as a worthwhile human being.

Thx Mr. Wise! & thx Dr. C... another classic! I too couldn't answer self-focused ?s but U help me understand: I supressed my self & took on another's emptiness. Years later I followed Christ & emptied what I'd believed 2B me: I found fullness, &, 4 1st time since childhood, stopped feeling suicidal. ❤😂

Wow. Two giants in the field. I could have listened to them for hours!!!

I was one of those people who wanted to fix my narcissistic sister , I starting to finally understand that it starts with me. Great advice gentlemen! It’s also great to hear laughing in a constructive manner!

I know that I am a capable person but I hear the negative talk of my mother..on a loop.

The interrupting was really intense. We all need to wait our turn to talk. Thank you for your calm and composure Dr. C.

I really appreciated this talk with Dr Wise as I’ve just started watching his videos over the last few months. Between you two guys and Dr Ramani, you’ve provided a golden framework for navigating through a dysfunctional narcissistic family and realizing that you often can’t enlighten them for a better and healthier relationship. I think that the serenity prayer is a really applicable gem of wisdom for these situations. Hats off to you guys!

What a fun surprise! Two of my favorite mentors. I took Jerry's group coaching program and it was powerful. Thank you both for sharing your wisdom and empowering those of us on the receiving end of this crazy-making behavior.

I saw the movie "All of us Strangers" yesterday and I have never cried so much during a movie. Now I can't even watch the trailer without crying again. Without spoiling the movie, it's about loss, the main character losing his parents in a car crash, and for me, I can't help but think how much easier and potentially better my life could have been if my toxic parents had died that way during my childhood, rather than being called a pervert and stuck in the closet for another 35 years by the narcissistic parents' shaming and keeping captive of my authentic self. I only have one life and for the most part I lived theirs, not my own. Having had the temerity to become myself, I have also become the scapegoat and been disinherited, so it truly will be injustice from my parents from my cradle to beyond their graves. I'm delighted that you two wonderful gentlemen are collaborating in this way. Despite no contact with the narcissistic parent for 8 years and the flying monkey / codependent parent for 3 years, it is the ongoing influence of the family system that causes me the most pain. My parents are now doing things they never did before, like having a party to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary, when they didn't for their 50th, 40th, or 25th, and I believe that 3 of my 4 adult kids went. I wouldn't have known about it at all but for my ex telling me about it and that the invitation came with the message "It's safe to come. We haven't invited because of their mental illness". I get it that Jerry studied to try to help his own family, that Mary Trump most likely became a clinical psychologist because of the scapegoating of her father (and thus her branch of the Trump family), because I too am studying psychology to make sense of it all and to make a positive difference. However, the only person I can change is myself and if any of my adult kids continue to play their roles in the narcissistic family system and expect me to play along, maybe I need to move on from them too, though it would seem like a huge abdication of parental responsibility as well as yet more loss. Which way lies the least pain, the least unrequited love, the greatest self-actualization and fulfilment? For me the most poignant line in the movie was "It's easy to stop caring for yourself". I know. I moved home 4 years ago and my furniture is still all wrapped up and packed. I've not moved in or created my own home. The pandemic, cancer and life-threatening injuries and consequent disability have all hindered, but the spark of "I'm free at last" failed to produce a flame within me.

I dont know if these two great people know how much they help with their words. Thank you both.

Thank U gentlemen .. life parallels itself .. toxic relationships on all levels

Thank you Dr. C for bringing in Mr. Wise. All love from South Africa!

Italy here. Great! Thank you ! 100% helping me, every single word. I don't even need to adapt the sentences to Italian culture. Cutting the conversation short by saying "What do we have for lunch?" is already tailored for _Italian_ narcissistic families 😂 . Ok, I'm just joking on the closing of the main affirmation, but, actually, that's one of the typical ways my parents cut off any topic they don't want to talk when people are asking them something they don't like (=nearly everything). Even for simple regular daily things they decide people don't have the right to ask. Either for the topic or for the moment of the day. So, "what do we have for lunch / dinner / breakfast?" ...could be sort of (excellent) boomerang . Boomerang? Am I still too reactive? 🤔 I think so. Work in progress. Thank you so much, great _wise_ men you two 🖐️🙂💚

Thank you, gentlemen. This was so helpful; it makes sense of my relationship with my mother. She went through WWII in London and moved to the US as a "war bride". She was not happy here and became pregnant with me shortly after she arrived. She thought she would be a princess in the US - didn't happen. She was SO miserable and indeed tried to fill me with her emptiness. "HOW DARE YOU BE A HAPPY LITTLE CHILD!" She almost "won" because I wanted to die, all through my childhood. I moved from KS to the west coast and cut off communications. Eventually, I did a lot of healing work on myself and finally realized that if anyone was to change the quality of our relationship, it would have to be me because I had the tools and she didn't. The night she died (27 years ago), I heard her voice as I went to sleep. "NOW, I can REALLY love you," she said. I understood that she meant she had always judged and condemned me and tried to make me into her image and likeness, but now she was on the other side, in Universal Love, and no longer judged me. Healing happens!

These two are my favorites on this subject. They are like the two wise uncles (no pun intended) everyone wishes they had. ❤

Listening to Mr. Wise reminds me of my Great Uncle David who also was from Indiana, and who also was so wise and loving and nurturing. What a blessing. Thanks so much for sharing! ❤

Great convo with Jerry, Dr. C. The beginning set a good tone. Appreciate the discussions that you have with others in this space. It’s also refreshing hearing from more men in this space.

Worlds colliding! I love you two and I love you two together! I grew up distant from my dad (I had many stepfathers but…) and I consider you both like second fathers ❤️

I offered a green smoothie lol...I think calmness breeds clarity

Please, click the like button for these wonderful counselors😊

This is stuff I surely need. Thank you dr C. Thank you, in advance, Mr Wise.

Ooooh gooooody! I watch Jerry all the time. I certainly do. Love you both. God bless you both. From JANESVILLE, WISCONSIN USA

Love it. Know thy self You have no control other than YOURSELF ❤😂🎉 Stay calm and carry on Knowledge is power