Tekken Training

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Massive Zug

Massive Zug

Күн бұрын

Hopefully will point some newer players in the right direction in regards to labbing.
Fergus2k8 Guide: t.co/RgZikiMZcU
That Blasted Salami yt: / thatblastedsalami
Reddit Top 15 Moves: / ongoing_top_15_moves_w...
#Tekken #FGC #Guide
Try and have a good time (-:
P.S. The narration was interrupted half way through due to falling ill; that's why it may sound extra whack.

Пікірлер: 138
@xtiancolquhoun7410
@xtiancolquhoun7410 4 жыл бұрын
"Slowest reactions a human could have" shows him getting snake edged. Lol that is genius putting that in
@chrisedwards3640
@chrisedwards3640 4 жыл бұрын
I can't tell if this is ironic or just fucking pea brain
@xtiancolquhoun7410
@xtiancolquhoun7410 4 жыл бұрын
@@chrisedwards3640 well this comment kept you waiting huh?
@chrisedwards3640
@chrisedwards3640 4 жыл бұрын
@@xtiancolquhoun7410 🤢
@xtiancolquhoun7410
@xtiancolquhoun7410 4 жыл бұрын
@@chrisedwards3640 you know how to use emojis? You're very clever indeed! Lol
@smokey5960
@smokey5960 4 жыл бұрын
Chris Edwards Honestly a spastic
@astro_1707
@astro_1707 4 жыл бұрын
This channel is beyond helpful and deserves more subs
@Steambull1
@Steambull1 4 жыл бұрын
At my age, the biggest drawback of the game is how much time the character labbing would require. I wish the game was more like the PS1 trilogy when it comes to the roster.
@riotphantom6766
@riotphantom6766 4 жыл бұрын
"The slowest reactions a human can possibly have" Are you challenging me?
@liquidcore_
@liquidcore_ 4 жыл бұрын
I’ve been playing since launch, the first Tekken I’ve really tried to get good at. It took me 3 years to get to a place where I feel I’m pretty good at the game, so to anyone who feels they’re not getting good fast enough, just hang in there.
@Milgamix77
@Milgamix77 4 жыл бұрын
bruh i have had this game for 3 months 110 hrs and still grand master/expert level spammers fuck meover soooo hard :(
@GoronsCave
@GoronsCave 4 жыл бұрын
@@Milgamix77 you should grasp the game a bit more around the 800 hour mark and really make progression a the 2000 hour mark. You make this maybe 5x faster by going to your local offline meet ups
@Milgamix77
@Milgamix77 4 жыл бұрын
GoronsCave 0-0 NO WAY 5x faster????
@GoronsCave
@GoronsCave 4 жыл бұрын
@@Milgamix77 depends on how much you want to learn but I'd say 5 times is pretty accurate depending on the caliber of players you have in your home town
@Edge9404
@Edge9404 4 жыл бұрын
@Lily is Hollow I mean 3 years to be alright in online is definitely POSSIBLE. Being good on tournaments though? It's a whole different ballpark.
@chunkymonn5177
@chunkymonn5177 4 жыл бұрын
This is amazing. I just started streaming and I never thought to really consider what my opponent is truly doing ! thanks man
@allanliang2925
@allanliang2925 4 жыл бұрын
Great video dude! Great timing as I've realised how much improvement I need in my movement, punishment, and throw breaking game.
@iroxz251
@iroxz251 2 жыл бұрын
Honestly one of the best educational and informative Tekken videos I've ever seen. I've been played for 6-7 years and I agree with probably everything you said, there was not a single thing I disagreed with. Which is pretty impressive in the Tekken community x) A little tip I can give I guess is, when you're learning a new character, learn a basic staple combo or two because a lot of their most used moves are in their combos. Great video!
@jsdre3026
@jsdre3026 4 жыл бұрын
Your content is something i always look forward to. Great content!
@ezradominikdelapena9443
@ezradominikdelapena9443 4 жыл бұрын
Even if I'm not a beginner the content you do is still entertaining and has great tips I hope your channel grows more because you deserve it!!!!
@KILLCHRISU
@KILLCHRISU 4 жыл бұрын
you deserve more recognition. very nicely made video. def helped
@Giraffinator
@Giraffinator 4 жыл бұрын
I swear i'll practice something else after i get one taunt jet upper
@Hezv1
@Hezv1 4 жыл бұрын
Doing great man. Really appreciate you showing your learning experience and passing down what you've learned. Imagine if you'd waited until you felt like you were an "expert" at tekken
@UnknownFeng
@UnknownFeng 4 жыл бұрын
Awesome video. I’ve always neglected movement and found my back to the wall. I cannot stress how important that is as well
@MrDertyBoi
@MrDertyBoi 3 жыл бұрын
This is the best channel on Tekken, definitely learning a lot
@313nash_
@313nash_ 4 жыл бұрын
Best Tekken videos on KZfaq, just goes to show subs don’t reflect quality
@Mantachen666
@Mantachen666 4 жыл бұрын
The first 3 seconds killed me already.
@yoshi9538
@yoshi9538 4 жыл бұрын
That law stage music made this shit funnier
@axelle0144
@axelle0144 4 жыл бұрын
this is such an informative video and i didnt find it one bit boring. SUBSCRIBED
@purplecodm
@purplecodm 4 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU FOR MAKING ANOTHER VIDEO!!
@rossanderson4156
@rossanderson4156 4 жыл бұрын
I'm very thankful for your content, I relate to your tekken story because I'm a pretty new player alao
@Ouatedephoque73
@Ouatedephoque73 4 жыл бұрын
very helpfull and so well edited, you definetely deserve more attention
@M4TTYN
@M4TTYN 4 жыл бұрын
to usual with niche games to fighting games their obscure to got a viewership of a certain type of person to those who understand what's going on to the lingo not many do to still many are joining and tekken hit 5 million copies sold! (as of december 2019 if you checked Tekken or harada's twitter) to many will get tilted of the normal pain of losing and fear outright turns many off always has to does outside of gaming to many need to push for growth and tuff it out but that's easier said then done getting beat by a better or experience player is core to gaming.
@Ouatedephoque73
@Ouatedephoque73 4 жыл бұрын
@@M4TTYN Yeah but that's litterally the essence of fighting games, i mean if you don't put efforts to get better in 1v1 games, you just end up loosing every match. You don't really enjoy till you are able to understand and get use to every "mechanics" kind off, which in tekken is really hard + the game doesn't really help you. If you want to "learn" the game properly you have to come here, on you tube, or reddit or whatever you got it
@Mogry51
@Mogry51 4 жыл бұрын
Well done! Really enjoyed it!
@rouenpaulo3986
@rouenpaulo3986 3 жыл бұрын
extra tip: pay attention to those hit dust (when blocking) or hit marks (colorful light effects). very useful to adjust in actual matches when facing a unfamiliar character or opponent. hope this help.
@tier3290
@tier3290 4 жыл бұрын
Great video as always
@ionica6038
@ionica6038 4 жыл бұрын
Really helpful video man. I have roughly 40 hours in the game and I'm still getting my ass kicked and this helps a lot in knowing how to actually practice well
@yak3382
@yak3382 4 жыл бұрын
You're a hype driver for this game, thanks for the video :D
@guntung18
@guntung18 4 жыл бұрын
@abyssaleye9799
@abyssaleye9799 4 жыл бұрын
You make great videos
@supercool42_
@supercool42_ 3 жыл бұрын
ur videos are great hope you keep up the epic tekken content for your brain is extraordinarily gigantic :)
@bobo_gemini3008
@bobo_gemini3008 4 жыл бұрын
👌👌the lab and the lab again👌👌 great video
@Mikey2sam
@Mikey2sam 4 жыл бұрын
Really wished this video kept on going
@bruhbruh33333
@bruhbruh33333 4 жыл бұрын
Great video, earned my sub
@thelrproject257
@thelrproject257 4 жыл бұрын
I think I like to do both ways of learning matchups just in case uncommon ones pop up, I think playing an opponent then labbing what gave you trouble levels you up tremendously but in situations where I might face an armor king and the opponent can feel I'm not comfortable in the matchup, they will start abusing strings that he has that end in high or can be parried to test me which is where the prior labbing let's me know on reaction to duck and launch.
@soontobedeletedtwizzy2365
@soontobedeletedtwizzy2365 4 жыл бұрын
Noticed your YT channel on my feed a couple of days ago. Nice vids so far. Good stuff mate. I have some ideas/suggestions if you'd like to hear + I'd love to talk to a fairly new-ish Tekken player if you're down.
@silverrain530
@silverrain530 3 жыл бұрын
I played my first online match against a mighty ruler player today and I agree that replays are very helpful. I noticed that my movement wasn't as good as his which resulted to me getting stuck at the wall a few times. I also couldn't carry my combos as far or launch as often. There were other things but those were the big takeaways for me. On the other hand, I was pleased with how well I poked and defended in the match. Not perfect but better than I was expecting. I actually ended up winning 3-1.
@Fidolorous
@Fidolorous 4 жыл бұрын
Nice editing!
@ThePizzaDwarf
@ThePizzaDwarf 4 жыл бұрын
Insta sub. Very useful information right here, thanks!
@Bloom_HD
@Bloom_HD 4 жыл бұрын
That intro is godlike xD
@krishnarai4854
@krishnarai4854 4 жыл бұрын
Slowest reaction a person can possibly have . I laughed hard on that one . You should see me on cs go with awp
@xGenyox
@xGenyox 4 жыл бұрын
that's some good ass editing
@yoldmate5450
@yoldmate5450 4 жыл бұрын
Love you my aussie brotha
@coolamericano
@coolamericano 3 жыл бұрын
That Lee intro was hella hilarious LOL
@kierandyk9055
@kierandyk9055 6 ай бұрын
really well edited video. What is the music behind this video
@masdan5422
@masdan5422 4 жыл бұрын
For me, iam just see the character, chose what i like, open practice mode, open movelish see what that character can do, train some basic and special movement (for character like yoshi spin, wavedash, and backsway) . make sure you can do all move, ALL, and try go for match. thats how you start. why i tell you this, cuz my GF beat me out with paul, she not look for google or what, she just see what my paul usualy do when i face paul online. and now she can do 90% Rage art combo, and dodge my dark upper and throw with just back sway. BTW she play Paul because he is manly.
@shafir2
@shafir2 4 жыл бұрын
Lee main here. Excellent 🌹
@lukewillis6056
@lukewillis6056 4 жыл бұрын
got my ass beat by a Lee last night 9 times in a row, got PTSD from this comment
@night0.071
@night0.071 3 жыл бұрын
that monkey ball clip really hurt to watch lmao
@XNDL44
@XNDL44 4 жыл бұрын
One of these days I shall break 1+2 grabs consistently and master low parrying. Never again shall a Katerina player beat me through a couple of combo openers
@Darrel_B
@Darrel_B 4 жыл бұрын
He side-stepped Devil Jin's Hellsweep... goodbye Halcyon Days 😅
@Jay_D_Ashe
@Jay_D_Ashe Жыл бұрын
Bro making a Tekken video with Super Monkey Ball music. I love you, no homo.
@nojo631
@nojo631 4 жыл бұрын
The only way that helps me learn games is to spam games out until I get past the newbie stage then I go into videos and guides, to get to work on new player habits, but spamming games to learn core mechanics prior is very important to learn before fancy combos
@tekkenvietnamofficial
@tekkenvietnamofficial 4 жыл бұрын
Great video! How to free camera like this?
@Demon_Aura
@Demon_Aura 2 жыл бұрын
I Was set on the Lab for 7 months and in the last 2 I stared to play vs my brother. Then I go online, I became warrior in only 90 wins
@Gogert777
@Gogert777 4 жыл бұрын
Wow bandi sould hire you to make a tutorial
@lonestar6709
@lonestar6709 3 жыл бұрын
_"Never be afraid to fail. A master failed a thousand times."_ -Bruce Lee.
@AmericanWitchFreyaRhodes
@AmericanWitchFreyaRhodes 4 жыл бұрын
I played Lee Chaolan before, and also face my brothers as well .
@pnyYT
@pnyYT 4 жыл бұрын
Ahhh. A fellow Lee player.
@IAMOP
@IAMOP 4 жыл бұрын
I am here
@obaidkhamis4521
@obaidkhamis4521 4 жыл бұрын
Bro help me with the mist step back 2’s I’m so bad with it and I use a PlayStation controller. People who use an arcade joy stick say it’s easier but I’m use the to the ps4 controller ...
@Treem0re
@Treem0re 3 жыл бұрын
My face when I'm only good at teching throws when I first start 😎
@vancefr
@vancefr 4 жыл бұрын
I have real problem with doing combos, jugling, and ewgf
@GamerGoofy100
@GamerGoofy100 4 жыл бұрын
hey is there a chance you could list the music used in this video?
@ChristVill45
@ChristVill45 4 жыл бұрын
the first video in intro, makes me Laugh😆😂🤣
@joserodriguez537
@joserodriguez537 4 жыл бұрын
I would die if I only played tekken for 2 hours a week
@vaibhavkoneru878
@vaibhavkoneru878 3 жыл бұрын
ive got 100 hours and i still dont know what i doing i keep trying to hit the same combo starter and sometimes i block lows i just throuw out random moves its sad
@lee_2302
@lee_2302 4 жыл бұрын
How did you do that freecam while the game was still playing?
@pj491
@pj491 4 жыл бұрын
9:03 are you using naicon daija, Do you think there's an input delay?
@alonseque8887
@alonseque8887 4 жыл бұрын
Amigo veo todos tus videos, cuando pondras sub en español :(
@viciouspink6247
@viciouspink6247 3 жыл бұрын
i hate the thought of needing to practice multiple days (as far as i understood it takes 10-20+ hours) of the broken animation cancelling technique korean backdash. I bought the game to play and improve vs others- learning combos in fine... but practicing against not even a bot, but the FLOOR?! That sounds so incredibly unfun, that i kind of feel like just dropping tekken after having purchased it right away. Do you have anything to recommend or say about this?
@sl0pper
@sl0pper 2 жыл бұрын
cry
@user-uq9ej1vr4f
@user-uq9ej1vr4f Жыл бұрын
I thought I got a good grasp of tekken until I fought a xiao yu
@babadraga3114
@babadraga3114 4 жыл бұрын
I got to mighty ruler on my main with nothing but a decent double/triple backdash, mediocre punishment outside of launches, and a great mixup game. The game isn't as difficult as a lot of people make it out to be, unless you're a tournament player
@Edge9404
@Edge9404 4 жыл бұрын
I'm not trying to offend but TGP is where you can say that you're an alright player. Watch Knee vs online TGPs for example. He completely dismantles them while interacting with his chat.
@BeretBay
@BeretBay Жыл бұрын
That just means you were playing a good online character 😂
@Spriktor
@Spriktor 4 жыл бұрын
*laughs in yoshimitsu labs*
@Antomp
@Antomp 2 жыл бұрын
how to press two button at same time?
@devilsgame9972
@devilsgame9972 4 жыл бұрын
HMM MEW PLAYERS?? GOOD LUCK ON YOUR GAME BUDDY
@killclair4594
@killclair4594 2 жыл бұрын
WIFE eeeeeew
@Darrihen
@Darrihen 4 жыл бұрын
This game makes me sad, I really love it, but I'm suck... I play since Tekken 2, but only now I was able to bough my own PS4 and play against real people... Live in a small town where everybody plays KoF, SF or MK and you are the only guy who plays Tekken its hard to improve, you need an everyday rival. Now I'm 30 now, i dont have the same speed reaction for lows, or the same speed on my finger to do proper movement... I can't get out of yellow rank with any of my 30 characters (6 main).
@momzitoari9354
@momzitoari9354 4 жыл бұрын
you sound so sleepy!
@HarmonicResonanceScale
@HarmonicResonanceScale 3 жыл бұрын
I can do kbd without thought in practice mode but i hit ranked and suddenly have Parkinson's.
@CablixMoreWow
@CablixMoreWow 4 жыл бұрын
wait did you always have a lisp?
@abyssaleye9799
@abyssaleye9799 4 жыл бұрын
Ima noob
@luciferverone
@luciferverone 4 жыл бұрын
Im always playing on auto pilot, cuz i cant predict mixups for shit. Thats why i just made it to yellow rank.
@renzoGun1028
@renzoGun1028 4 жыл бұрын
Ive been playing for so long and i dont play on autopilot the farthest i got was brawler and i got deranked back to gm 😆
@luciferverone
@luciferverone 4 жыл бұрын
@@renzoGun1028 oof
@vincenzosobowl1030
@vincenzosobowl1030 4 жыл бұрын
biiiig rookie mistake is constantly grinding out combos in practice mode you'll never know how they actually work in real combat
@itzcomedyss4086
@itzcomedyss4086 4 жыл бұрын
That's not true it takes time to pull them in online like everything in life but becomes possible when you practice them
@vincenzosobowl1030
@vincenzosobowl1030 4 жыл бұрын
@@itzcomedyss4086 again you practice them all you want but you womt know how they work in a situation like lets say someone in yhe lobby has low bars and their laggy input etc none of its gonna be useful for you if you cant land anything or another example if you dont know your opponents play styles switch ups etc frames ya sure you can grind all those combos out an know how to do the input perfectly every time but not knowin how to apply those combos an shit in a real time fight against an actual person isnt gonna help you much cuz you dont exactly know what they're gonna do move wise baits whiffs etc man there is a lot that makes grindin out moves in practice mode ONLY as i stated a big rookie mistake for stuff i mentioned thru out this whole comment so if you're lookin to practice combos id suggest get a group of friends who you know are good or what ever set up your own private lobby set it to 4 rounds and 99 seconds with no consecutive win rate an you guys can grind out new combos an such thru that so youre still gettin the fightin experience without worryin about losin your rank if you lose the match just sayin its helpful man an makes a huge difference
@timothygann9779
@timothygann9779 4 жыл бұрын
Wanting to hang out with wife would have to go.
@abdullahceka3613
@abdullahceka3613 3 жыл бұрын
10:30 song?
@yeah5874
@yeah5874 4 жыл бұрын
Zug pls I lost my saves I had just gotten to yellow ranks :( why this game so mean
@cagethelonewolf
@cagethelonewolf 4 жыл бұрын
understanding flow charts... or you could not just spam the same move over and over that a baby could see comeing
@awesome53559
@awesome53559 4 жыл бұрын
You can't choose a tekken character, the tekken character will choose you.
@lukewillis6056
@lukewillis6056 4 жыл бұрын
facts, king just resonated with me so its why im maining him
@awesome53559
@awesome53559 4 жыл бұрын
@@lukewillis6056 💯 believable.
@KingDom.mp3
@KingDom.mp3 4 жыл бұрын
Tbh Zug i liked when you just had the text on the screen. No disrespect to your voice but it did give your tutorials character. Why not do commentary on matches with your voice and bring back the old tutorials?
@DeathScorpi0
@DeathScorpi0 4 жыл бұрын
Flowcharts? Predictability? Ha, if you don't have a plan nor flowcharts and just improvise every round you can become very unpredictable.
@theblueclone9009
@theblueclone9009 4 жыл бұрын
I play on controller 🙁
@taylorbee4010
@taylorbee4010 4 жыл бұрын
Australians have tea?
@diarhighsmith9129
@diarhighsmith9129 4 жыл бұрын
so desperado, mentioning his wife, My one Plays , why doesnt yours ? Husband fail
@M4TTYN
@M4TTYN 4 жыл бұрын
i know master raven, nina, lars, kuma, & yoshimitsu to absolutely don't calculate their frames on x and y move to i understand the moves that are slow to recover slow to i choke and drop a lot to have my hated match up's *king/amour king to the mishima bloodline, lee, law & hwoarang* we all do to learning to play them is part of fighting games of course to part of the growing process as to gaining the mental of withstanding the endless training mode loop as you try to find tech and try new characters out after you're main get's nerfed to even the entire cast get's buffs & nerfs to keep at it, say gg & don't rage quit rank isn't that important PLEASE!
@vladislavdanmaku9141
@vladislavdanmaku9141 4 жыл бұрын
Hi. Thank you very much for your videos. Could you please advice where could I find some more basic information regarding general move list and frame data ( like 1-punch is generally 10 frames) to make the game more understandable? I have watched through 10 hours of different educational videos and they are very helpful but they either explain total basics like movement or they jump right into quantum mechanics. It feels like there is no golden middle. For example, I am struggling with inputs and have issues punishing even -20 moves. An understanding that I should knew that the move is unsafe and start an input for a punish just before the moment my block animation starts was an actual revelation. The most frustrating part about fighting games is that not only it has a lot of characters, each character also has a load of moves. Like you have told in the video, I "only need to know general information about each", but there is seemingly no resource explaining bread and butter information for newcomers. For example, in starcraft it is possible to google basics about your defensive and offensive tools and learn it in 3 hours but fighting is like studying japanese: "Here you have 2 alphabets and 400 kanji, now just carve it in your brain and you are good to start learning." Is there only a hard way of finding a specific character for an opponent and asking to teach me how to play against it after learning basics of my own character or is there any generalized information that could be applied to anyone? Great ideas of my own which are 1)watch a video for every character and 2)try to lab top moves by yourself have failed as well because 1)you cant waste 50 hours for watching someone explaining each and every move and remember atleast 20% of that 2)moves mean nothing on their own when you have no idea how they are expected to be used and when you are failing inputs for a half consistently
@DraenosHellfire
@DraenosHellfire 4 жыл бұрын
I just posted above, it might be a bit more advanced than what you're looking for but they also show the weaknesses of most characters and how to punish with your character : docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ETDnPJuku2ref3PzODMpZ4y7e5_wfILR2aPv83WpSw/edit#gid=2100504708
@MassiveZug
@MassiveZug 4 жыл бұрын
The frame data for the cast can be found at rbnorway.org/T7-frame-data/ I had the same problem (still do!) learning where I face say Xiaoyu for the first time in 3 months and have no idea what I'm meant to be looking for. At this current time I just try to lab their top 15 moves and when they're a bit more common like Kaz, I play them for a few hours to see what I would like to do as a Kaz player, then keep that in my mind when I'm vs'ing them on my main character. I might have to do a big old vid on trying to squash the movelist of each character to help focus on what is the main moves we should be looking for. I probably made this more confusing so let me know if you need any more help haha
@vladislavdanmaku9141
@vladislavdanmaku9141 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks a lot for replies. It seems that there is no easy way and remembering everything is the way to go. I simply need a foundation based on practice before familiarities will become recognizable. Guess I will just learn a single block punish, a single mixup and will try to apply it for as many situations as possible while learning exceptions. Can't be concerned about gameplan if WS moves feel like a gamble and df is also uf sometimes. LOL
@Dawird
@Dawird 4 жыл бұрын
Did you stay easiest fighting games? 😂
@krishnarai4854
@krishnarai4854 4 жыл бұрын
Fightig game where it it easy to gain knowledge. I think thats what he means
@sicknificantfgc7633
@sicknificantfgc7633 4 жыл бұрын
He means it is easier to see your progress on Tekken If you play MK11 it takes about 30 minutes to learn a new character a and their combos. A week later even after playing hours and hours you may still find yourself thinking you havent made much progress. Especially if you are winning. Maybe a good player could push you to practice other mechanical but in casual and even relatively high levels of ranked, you wont need to know much to win.
@JinTheAceStar
@JinTheAceStar 4 жыл бұрын
Man u sound kinda cute #nohomo but hmu
@xerotoninz
@xerotoninz 3 жыл бұрын
you cant just run up and grab. lmao dont reveal my top tier strats ey
@musiclover3287
@musiclover3287 4 жыл бұрын
pleaaaaase never say easy to tekken mabey its easy to start but never ever easy to make better and play like pros
@theDiReW0lf
@theDiReW0lf 4 жыл бұрын
I love a lot about Tekken, but the knowledge required is sickening. Feels more like a history test than a fighting game. I think unless you have a local scene and can play long sets against a variety of characters who can give you advice on the spot, it's an extremely tedious and boring grind.
@brother_maleik
@brother_maleik 4 жыл бұрын
Wtf is lab
@brother_maleik
@brother_maleik 4 жыл бұрын
Wtf is a flow chart
@NeoFluchs
@NeoFluchs 4 жыл бұрын
I may be a retarded yoshi main... but thaz point you start from 06:35 is for me a no go... i see the point but it makes it less fun to play if you ONLY use the good tools.. yeh i know.. if u are a very competetive player i can understand but to me.its boring
@sicknificantfgc7633
@sicknificantfgc7633 4 жыл бұрын
I mean, yoshi still follows the same rule that he mentioned. Prob with yoshi is his tools are all garbage on their own and your only chance is to scare/confuse your opponent into letting you do things. Yoshi has an abundance of moves that are good in one situation but horrible in the next. So it is still true to stick to using your good tools, but it's harder to know what move that is in particular situations. A lot of other characters have multiple moves that effectively do the exact same thing but one will be more minus on block and therefore, basically useless.
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