The stats in this video are so good that F1, Bernie and FOM lawyers should use it as evidence for their defence. I'd rule against Massa (even though I like the guy, but I'd have to be impartial) on the strength of it alone if I was a juror.

"Dum Dum!!!"

I am about to be evicted after your Law & Order made me laugh hysterically in a quiet apartment complex in Zurich. This is your fault. I demand you offer me shelter in your garage if my work lease is rescinded.

The FIA will end up settling out of court to get rid of Massa. In the immortal words of Teddy KGB - PEI DEIT MEIN HEIS MAHNEY!

Law & Order - Racing Victim Unit. Now I'm thinking of petrol head personalities, to fill the actor's roles

Lawyers always win ❤

@@user-rs2qw7co2hRudi Giuliani wants you to hold his beer,

Massa can get his loss overturned and that’s what he wants.

But thats no excuse for driving off with the fuel hose still attached 😂😂😂

​@@F1Guy-GuyThe micro-mirrors would make it difficult to begin with. Also, drivers are pretty much instructed to follow the signals given by the mechanics. I know Ferrari and a few other teams use to have big mirrors on their lollipops, but they were phased out when the lights came. So there was no chance there. In terms of the footage, you can see pretty much every mechanic got surprised by Felipe going early (even the guy who was controlling the system). The human reaction time from the pit board to first realise what happened, and then inform Felipe would have been a few seconds. By that point, he probably would be in a position that would block the pit lane if he came to a full stop. And we have to take into account that Felipe would be set up and primed to get the best exit possible out of the box to not lose positions. Also, to add to the issue, the lights were set-up to the top right of where Felipe was sitting. So there was no chance he could've even glanced at the left mirror to see in the first place. And he most likely didn't feel anything pulling on the car, because the systems are half designed to safely destruct themselves for cases as such as what happened. If it stayed connected to the fuel rig, there's a risk the rig itself would be yanked out of position, which could impact mechanics in front of it and potentially cause a fire if it spills into the pits. Also also, DC had the same issue happen later on in the event, but Red Bull was still using the lollipop. So the mechanic probably raised it and then instantly lowered it again once he realised. DC's experience of having this happen previously probably also help the situation not escalate to the same level as Felipe's.

@@F1Guy-Guy it is because the light malfunctioned so Massa thought the stop was over

@@HBest94o Mechanic controlling it released his thumb too early on the trigger, which switched the lights to green.

MASSA SUES BERNIE! OMG! REAL LIFE LAW & ORDER!

​@@AidanMillward😮😮😮🤯🤯🤯

exactly, furthermore you can actaully discuss things in the comements with out fear of people being very nasty simply because they disagree with you

And replay the 66 cup final. Plus the refuelling era wasn’t as good as nostalgia would have you believe.

If it was about to happen it should be before 2010. Now it's all done and dusted. It's absolutely pointless on doing this.

@@AidanMillwardRespectfully disagree, it brought in not only different race strategy, but differences in car design philosophy. Besides, I'd let them run unlimited fuel, so no need to economize. Want to do a three pit sprint because your car's fast, but eats tires? Go for it and burn an extra ten gallons if you like. Maybe Haas could be more interesting.

@@bobclarke5913 want to do a three pit sprint? Do two stops and then get stuck behind Jarno Trulli for the rest of the race

Why would anyone want that? Races were decided by the first round of pitstops. Teams told drivers to not race. The only position changes occurred when some nameless, faceless team member botched their only job, as Massa found out in Singapore 2008. And we got the thrill of watching every single car sit still for 9 seconds at a time, plus their entire trip down in and out of the pit box, three times per race. Refueling was the worst period of racing in F1 history, and it can be empirically measured as such in that there were fewer race overtakes than during any other era. In fact, races without any position changes at all weren't out of the ordinary. Your "unlimited" fuel rule wouldn't work. As you suggest yourself, there's no advantage to any other strategy than the winning one, and the engineers knew what this was before each race 20 years ago. So no one's building a car with unlimited fuel levels. They'd all know what works and build to that. The only guesswork in F1 strategy is tire wear, full stop.

why only that season, if one race where someone cheat gets voided, why not every race every season where a team did something illegal?

Yeah, and this is why Massa doesn't really have a case. The Butterfly-effect is real here, and everyone involved in F1 can point at something that could alter everything. As much as I sympathize with him, there's too much at stake here.

@@fuzzy1dk That's pretty much the point I tried to make by calling it a shitstorm. If Massa wins this, you can expect every team and driver to start cases for anything that ever happened in the past

​@@InekoBK Yeah it would set an absolutely ridiculous precedent.

Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with Renault being retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 constructors championship and forced to return the prize money they got for that season (which would be distributed among the teams that finished behind Renault in the championship). This would be consistent with how McLaren were disqualified from the 2007 WCC for cheating. I also wouldn’t have a problem with Nelson Piquet Jr. being retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 drivers’ championship (just like Michael Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 WDC). However, the FIA’s investigation in 2009 determined that Fernando Alonso was not involved in the Singapore 2008 cheating, so Alonso should not be disqualified from the race, or the season. This retrospective action would be fair, just and consistent, and yet would not change the outcome of the 2008 drivers’ championship, meaning that Massa would not be considered the 2008 world champion.

Really? I thought leclerc was in Massa's seat since Räikkönen replaced him Also bearman's helmet is strikingly similar to Massa's helmet

That's impossible, 2008 was 5 years ago. I'm not old. FIGHT ME

@@lordshaxx2165 yeah I know. And thirty years ago it was the 60's in my mind.

@@klutchcustoms2428 it's hard for me to believe the v6 Hybrid Era began 10 years ago 😱

And he passed Hamilton

Good point there!

That is (allegedly) exactly why. With Nando coming to drive in a few short months, Ferrari didn't wan't to risk souring that relationship as soon as it started. Plus when it came out Massa was still in recovery from his accident, his returning to F1 at all was in question.

The difference was that in 2009 when all this came out the 2008 season was done and finalized and nothing could be done. Back in 2008 when according to Ecclestone he and others knew what had happened they could and arguably should have delted the race's results from the standings as is usual in sports.

Renault and Ferrari should be the only teams punished as a result of the lawsuit, if any teams do get punished, that is.

F1 has dug itself a huge hole. It has been too casual about judging incidents, hoping they don't happen again instead of reviewing them & amending rules to ensure they are prevented from happen again. Rules need to be clearer (& unfortunately more complicated) & followed more strictly. If you leave short rules open to interpretation they will not be applied consistently, even before you consider that everyone has a personal bias. Other sports update their rules between seasons to try & make themselves better. F1 does not seem to care.

The other point is, well... when would they have voided the result? I.E... when was this 'investigation' that they apparently would have been able to do able to take place? Because if it's AFTER the Brazilian GP (but before the FIA Gala), well... that's essentially what the outcome would be

The issue I have is Massa lost points due to Ferrari's pit light system failing. But that error was not directly caused by Renault cheating so it could have presumably happened at any point during the season. If Singapore hadn't happened it is likely Ferrari wouldn't have know there was a problem to fix

@@kityhawk2000 this error is directly caused by renault cheating, closing the gap to a car length and putting ferrari mechanics under pressure, he would normally have a nice comfortable margin in hand

That's very funny.

Why do they need to apologize? Briatore is the one who cheated Massa by engaging in unsportsmanlike behavior.

Agreed

@GreenHornet553 do you mean the same Briatore who due to his "VAT problems" had his yacht Force Blue confiscated by Italian authorities which they sold via a surprise auction for a fraction of its value to Bernie that Briatore now uses for free whenever he wants to?

@@T_Mo271 Is it though in the case of Ecclestone? HE's the one who relighted the fire under that controversy that anyone had accepted was "done and dusted". Bernie still seems to be pissed off that Liberty Media didn't make him some kind of "special member" of the same F1 HE sold them for a hefty sum of money and he seems to be quite willing to make things difficult for Liberty Media with his "remarks" about present and past occurrences in F1. This is pretty much a non-issue in my opinion: as the F1 owner at the time, Bernie saw NO REASON to change the season's outcome at the time, yet a decade and a half later he tries to change the history. It looks like it all comes down to Bernie liking the idea of Michael Schumacher being the only one who won 7 world championships and therefore he retro-actively tries to screw over Lewis Hamilton. The thing is that by opening THIS can of worms, Bernie also risks opening the other cans of worms, like the ones that have been closed on controversial Schumacher, Prost and Senna championships. And that kind of paints him as an incompetent/corrupt fool.

Absolutely correct but that system is still ruining Nascar in my opinion. Barely watched a race since it was implemented because it's not pure racing, it forces drivers to do dumb things just to get into the "chase" that they otherwise wouldn't have done with a normal points system in place. Too much emphasis is put on winning and finishing in specific positions instead of consistency like it should be and is for every other motorsport. For example, an underdog champion like Alan Kulwicki which won the championship in 1992, was won by the finest margins ever in Nascar history at that time. Yet he only won 2 races in 1992 and a championship like that today would basically be impossible under today's "Chase" formula. He was the 1992 champion based on raw consistency, not his win count. Stage racing is even more silly in my opinion because that's as artificial as racing gets. I understand the premise behind why they do it (to have closer races) but the same exact effect is achieved with someone making a mistake and bringing out the yellow. I honestly think Nascar would do a lot better if they just went back to their classic format and stopped trying to sensationalize everything through artificial means just to try and make it seem more interesting than it really is. Not to mention the "chase" formula can be downright confusing at times when a normal points system is much easier to understand. And yes before you ask, I am an American.

​@@2K-Tanbest championship points system in all of racing.

It's such a mess. Alonso was going to Ferrari.(Ferrari didn't want to attack Alonso) Jean Todt was going to the FIA.... Renault was thinking about leaving the "sport" The first time the case was handled Felipe was in the hospital and his manager is Nicolas Todt (so he was not going to attack his father/FIA)

im sorry but i don't think you understand anything

exactly. excluding Renault, everyone was dealt the same cards and some just played them better than others

is there any other case of this kind of cheating? I mean, there's a lot of instances of cars infringing regulation, but crashing purposely?

The whole race was cheated, not one or two cars to make them individually faster. Saying "but there's no precedent" only works if there's been a meaningfully similar situation, and there hasn't been.

I would argue that everyone was extremely affected by the cheating. The Safety Car changed the race for everyone. The only comparable illegal influence on a race would be Silverstone 2003 and Hockenheim 2000, but these were not caused by a competitor in the race (whose driver, btw, still holds the victory).

@@stephengalanis To everyone but Renault it was just a race with a safetycar, everyone was dealt and had to play the same cards

He had to. Anyone else would be going “pitting me that soon? Putting so little fuel in my car? Are you mental?”

Oh Alonso knew 1000%

@@AidanMillward his strategy was how i knew at the time as well, i created a thread on the itv f1 forum to say piquet crashed on purpose only to be dismissed because apparently a driver wouldn't put himself in danger like that

I agree. And.....Is Massa broke? I figured he'd still be a millionaire. But a financial settlement can't change the past, it can only give him money.

That statement is also partly Bernie being a sneaky weasel.

And these days Flavio is around F1 again so not much has come of that

he would have ended up behind Hamilton anyway

No actually it depends. There is good grounds for financial loss, not so much for the championship award. If it is shown that Bernie said those things and didn't investigate, their negligence made him lose money. That's a straightforward ground for suing.

oh sure, he can get compensation but he isn't getting his title, that part is delusional.@@crunchyfrog555

@@crunchyfrog555So Mercedes can sue Masi and Red Bull also for 2021, and that isn’t happening is it?

In fairness, he could win it

@@thelegend5243 No

Even non Hamilton fans were pissed off.

When it comes to Hamilton, people only ever mention stuff that goes against him. I mean for 2007 and Brazil, Williams and BMW had illegal fuel temps which would have disqualified them and made Hamilton champ. Here we can have the same debate now as 2008 with massa.

If Massa loses, I'll eat all my plutonium and uranium. That’s how confident I am.

Which bridge and how big a net must I use?

Where do you live .....and about what date and time of the day ...

An easy comment when, like me, you’re broke. 🤣

Where’s the bridge?

During a pitstop the drivers physically can not see out of their cars, so that is entirely on Ferrari

Exactly. Here's another thought. If Massa gets his way then LH should sue as well for the result in the race following Singapore where LH finishes 12, courtesy of Massa, As Massa knocked into LH requiring LH to pit and effectively ending his race as LH was able to rejoin the race but now in last place and was unable to work his way back up the field and ended in 12th place. Massa is full of nonsense because he's effectively saying he would've been WDC if it wasn't for that incident but there's nothing to support that arguement. He wasn't WDC because he didn't score enough points. He didn't get the job done. He finish in is last place because of driver error. The next race he finishes 8th and was bumped up to 7th because of a FIA decision but his poor performance and finishing higher in the points, again, driver error. The next race Massa finishes 2nd and LH finishes 1st. (The one driver he needed to finish ahead of - and didn't), again, he didn't get the job done. (LH did get the job done) His expectation and his thought process that he should've been WDC is delusional at best. As FM and Ferreira entered the last race, for some inexplicable reason, they entered with a mindset that MF will become WDC if he wins the race and LH does not finish higher than 6th. It's fairytale thinking. Effectively they're believing that all you have to do is win the race and the best driver in the world won't be able to finish higher than 6th because,(let's say this again - the BEST DRIVER IN THE WORLD) he needs 5th place to win. They are not living in reality. LH should sue to have MF Disqualified from that race based on mental instability and dysfuncting cognitive functionality. He may appear physically sound but mentally he's in la la land. MF is not WDC because he didn't get the job done. LH did. LH didn't have to to finish 1st, in the last race of the season to win. LH only needed to finish 5th. LH didn't rely on the failure of another to win, he ensured he finished 5th. He got the job done. At no point was MF a WDC and the opportunity to do so disminished the closer they got to the start line of the last race. And to believe if LH didn't have the 6pts from finishing 3rd, he would be WDC, NO, he wouldn't. All it would mean is LH would've had to finish 3td instead. It's all gaslighting. And it's operating from and emotional standpoint instead of facts and reason. If MF finishes 2nd in Singapore, would anyone be having this conversation? And, NO, MF would not have been WDC either, because LH then would've finished 4th. If MF wants to be play fair and objective, we disallow the race, also erasing his driver error pitt stop blunder, the outcome of any race thereafter becomes uncertain and hence unknown, so the standings of the WDC as listed prior to the start of Singapore become the final standings of the 2008 season. But, he's not going that route because he will only finish 2nd, LH still wins. Whichever FM wants to slice it and dice it, and no time was he ever a World Champion. (Sorry, this went way long).

@@mireilledavidson9427 massa is not world champion because he did get the job done but the FIA brought in a crazy rule to turn the races into a lottery massa got pole at monaco, he led monaco comfortably in the wet, lewis hamilton crashed and pitted a minute behind massa got the job done, lewis hamilton didn't get the job done, but simply because there was a safety car and simply because hamilton crashed and pitted before that safety car he was instantly promoted to effective race leader with a pitstop on top, massa who got the job done and did nothing wrong suddenly is trapped on track and is not allowed to pit massa got the job done and deserved 10pts, if hamilton was a better driver and didn't crash then he would not receive that 8pt turnaround in his direction and wouldn't be world champion hamilton is the crash lottery and rigging world champion of 2008 and in any other year massa pits comfortably in both instances to cover off hamilton and be 13pts better off in the championship

@@mireilledavidson9427 btw hamilton did need to rely on a failure of others to win the championship, he didn't get the job done and ran wide falling down to 6th place, he let the championship slip on track just like 2007 and had to rely on the rain intensifying, massa was the one who again got the job done in that race in another dominant display over hamilton

I don't blame Massa I feel sorry for him but this wasn't the only unfair decision to have happened this season. A lot of championships have gotten decided by drivers losing out through no fault of their own but I don't think the right thing to do is DQ everyone in that race. Renault alone should be DQed

Indeed.

Guess Baelestre never got the memo, otherwise he wouldn’t have annulled the results of the 1986 Rally San Remo.

Actually, when Michael Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 season (for deliberately crashing into Villeneuve), the points scored in all the races were not recalculated, nor were Schumacher’s previous wins awarded to the drivers who came 2nd. The points scored by all other drivers remained the same, the only change in the WDC was Schumacher moved to the bottom of the standings. So if Nelson Piquet Jr. was retrospectively disqualified from the 2008 drivers’ championship, Massa would not gain 2 more points from the race in which he was 3rd and Piquet was 2nd - therefore Massa would not become the 2008 world champion.

@@timonsolus Exactly my point. There is no precedent for voiding the results of a race (that I'm aware of). Whether they recalculate points or not, the best possible outcome is a Renault DQ that does nothing at all to help Massa.

@@iangrant8290 : I'm not sure that Alonso should be disqualified from the race, and definitely not from the entire 2008 season. He was investigated by the FIA in 2009, and the FIA found him innocent of wrongdoing. Nelson Piquet Jr. definitely should be disqualified from 2008, though, as should the Renault team. Renault should pay back their prize money from the 2008 season. That money should be awarded to all the other teams that finished behind Renault in the championship, as they would all finish 1 place higher - (except for the Toyota and Super Aguri teams, which are no longer in F1 - not even under new names.) The FIA should use the money that would have gone to Toyota and Super Aguri to pay Massa's legal costs, and compensate him for their failure to investigate promptly in 2008.

It’s further away than it looks 😅

Going back and paying sportsmen based on the wins they were robbed of bad calls by series/officials would be a really weird precedent to set.

We have to consider the context, otherwise there is no expectation of accountability from sporting bodies, and historically many decisions have been reversed. When it concerns a conspiracy at the highest level of the sport to fix race results and suppress information that affects results, then Massa does have a legitimate case. If this is allowed then F1 is no longer considered fair sport and the fans and sponsors will leave. Sulayem is currently under investigation for artificial manipulation of race results, it's taken very seriously by the sport's stakeholders...

Thing about Button and Canada is that he put his own team mate in a wall and then fired Alonso off later. He did so much to lose that race only to luck out at the end. I don’t rate it that high for that reason

@@AidanMillward fair enough. I just remember him going from last to first. I didn't recall the incident with Alonso and his team mate. I seem to vaguely remember a great wet drive from Mansell where he was out on either wets or intermediates beyond their shelf life; seeking wet parts of the track to keep them cool.

Loss of earning for 2021 isn't the only thing he could sue them for. He would have also been 2007 WDC if the Fia had have enforced their rules and disqualified Williams and BMW for the fuel irregularities discovered after the Brazilian GP. Imagine what becoming the only Rookie WDC ever would have earned him?

I am thinking that is more legitimate than this suit

Knowing what Bernie is like, it was all a lie. they didn't know till next year. it is highly sus that only 3 people knew at the time and only one of them is alive to comment. Feel bad for Massa but he can't possibly expect to get anything out of this. Bernie is a bit like a motorsport equivalent of Donald trump. He can't be trusted. @@marklittle8805

If this lawsuit goes through, Lewis has a damn slam dunk for 2021. In 08, we don’t know how the remainder of the races work out. In 21, it’s unquestionable and undeniable had the rules and precedents been followed, the race ends under yellow and Lewis wins.

Ohh pls stop with this "Lewis was robbed" BS. He got a lot of sketchy decisions which went his way throughout the season but somehow all you people want to talk about is the final race. The first race in Bahrain, he literally went outside the track for almost 30 laps. When RB told Max to do the same, the FIA suddenly introduced track limits mid race. Every possibility that if Lewis hadn't done that or if Max wasn't stopped, Max would've overtaken Lewis and the final race would have had no consequence. Lewis took out Max in the British GP and all he got was a 10 second penalty. It was clearly inspired by his hero Senna who took out Prost cos he couldn't beat him. Lewis cut the corner (I forget the race) and clearly gained an advantage and wasn't penalised. Max did exactly the same and was penalised. So let's stop with this BS about the final race being the only issue in 2021. Lewis isn't a victim. He got a lot of decisions in his favour throughout the season which were obviously wrong. 1 decision which went against him and people forget the rest.

Decisions were literally made and rules broke in front of all our eyes thriugh the stewarding Body. I am still shocked to that day

@@marcusstrymon693 the Race Director has discretion over the Safety Car procedure as directly stated in the Regulations. Nothing was "broken", merely a procedure was altered _within the boundaries of the regulations_ and coincidentally exactly as the team principals had asked him to do before the race. It's why Mercedes didn't drag it into the court room because the lawyers advised them they'd lose any case.

@@jsquared1013 We both know that this is just a cheap excuse

But that's the whole case. We find out in 2009 that the race was rigged, Felipe was sad but moved on with his life. Last year Felipe got wind that actually it wasn't 2009 when the FIA knew the race was rigged, that they knew before the 2008 end of season ceremony.

1994 wasn't traction control, it was launch control, and wasn't able to be used in the race at any time other than when the car was stopped. I believe he's already done a video on that.

Best comment so far 😂😂

Then Paul Tracy has a claim as the 2002 Indy500 winner.

​@T_Mo271 Jim Clarks family could also sue for the 1963 Indy 500 result too

@@kityhawk2000 you mean Colin Chapman's estate?