Crim: "Playing one land a turn is a basic rule of magic and shouldn't be broken. Also Crim: "Drawing 10 cards a turn is fine. "

Tomer's face when Seth said "have you tried not paying for it" was priceless lmao

Firing and re-hiring Tomer every other week must be a nightmare for the HR

Sometimes Crim sounds like a wise Mtg master, and sometimes he says "oppo agent ar four mana should let you cast a spell for free". The duality of man

I can’t wait for Crim to Name rampant growth and everyone else to name every card in Crims deck.

green has tricked everybody into believing that ramp is fine and land destruction is poor sportsmanship.

I really want to see the crew play a 'No Ramp Week' and see how it goes. Genuinely curious.

Crim: Having more than 1 land per turn breaks the rules of magic Also Crim: Free spells and drawing an insane amount of cards is fine.

How it top tier ‘S’ and not either ‘S-alt’ or just ‘Na’

Seth's assessment of Insurrection is spot on. At least you ARE dead, vs I WIN, or spin wheels till everyone quits.

Fierce Guardianship should have been limited to what the name implies--guarding one's commander. The fact that it's a general noncreature counterspell makes too OP.

This is my first podcast I've watched of this channel, and my main takeaway is that Crim is certifiably insane.

I feel like with fierce guardianship a big thing is it has no downside. The other free counter spells have a cost to be free, a downside. Fierce guardianship has no punishment for tapping out and playing it. No card discarded or exiled, no mana to pay or lose the game, just a free negate.

Aven Mindcensor turns a Demonic Tutor into an Impulse. Opposition Agent is a three-for-one: - A creature - Stops a tutor - Gives you a tutor

I find it funny that Tomer doesn't mind Drannith Magistrate because of the entire play group, he always seems like the one who builds most all in around his commanders.

Obscuring Haze is honestly my favorite of the free cycle. It's the exact power level that the other cards should have been. It represents a very powerful, classic color-appropriate effect, and then has situational zero mana investment.

The 50/50 split on Armageddon was so fitting. I had someone play it at a table before. I had a Heroic Intervention. 2 people continued to play magic, and 2 people sat there doing nothing. So definitely 50% salty.

I personally don’t mind Dranith Magistrate. You kill it and move on most of the time. Sometimes it gets you but there are far more salt inducing things happening here.

"Deflecting swat gets cut, because it is not powerful enough". Whaaa :D If you hate extra turns, deflecting swat is like your best tool against them, lol. Card is incredible, especially if you aren't in blue. "Why would I not armageddon if I'm the first person out" Well, because you want them to finish the game quick so you can play another game, instead of waiting for 3 hours? :) Crim, I think you should play Polluted Bonds and Curse of the Restless Dead :)

I died when Seth just said that he would slam an Armageddon when he is about to lose.

and the question becomes, how many of these cards do you hate to play against, but then put into your own decks?

“If there was a Rhystic Study Eminence ability, I would quit Magic…” Mark Rosewater: “write that down, WRITE THAT DOWN!”

I've spent my 1 for 1 removal on the sol ring. It's amazing. I've had people scoop to that play because they relied on sol ring too much and didn't have enough lands to do anything else. If you can snipe it turn 1 or 2, it takes the player from a really good position to dead last. Snipe the sol ring, it's worth it.

You guys made me chuckle right at the beginning! Of course it's the ultimate blue player (Crim) and the "I'd rather draw 2 cards than not die horribly before my next turn" player (our best friend, who'reprobablybetterknownas...) that didn't hate Rhystic Study at all! 🤣

I wonder if the solution to green ramp is effects that punish having more lands than the rest of the table.

With Opposition Agent you also get to see the person's hand and hidden cards while searching because you control them during that period

I love Drannith Magistrate because it checks that one player, the one that doesn't play interactions and just do his own stuff and win one turn. It gives player with interactions the time they need to set themselves up and not have to play the police everywhere.

Crim is technically the most salty, Tomer and Seth didn't like a few blue cards, but he would put all of green in S Tier

Draw 3 cards every off turn for 1 mana. Crim: "It is not bonkers"

"How everyone thinks whatever garbage card they have is worth the tax," said Richard not holding anything back, this is gonna be an amazing video!

Love the conversations the Crew has, this one certainly being no exception. I’m a big fan of allowing quality discussions to be as long as they need to be, and it that happens to exceed an hour or whatever the typical runtime is, all good 🙂

Drannith Magistrate is like placing Ward on the opponents commanders, except instead of mana, or life, you pay with a removal spell. I think it's totally not gatekeeping to force your opponents to have creature removal. It's the same as not caring if someone is getting screwed over because they don't play enough lands or any mana rocks. Removal is part of a functional deck.

I remember the days when Tomer advocated for mystic remora and rystic study every commander clash, the olden days

Listening to Crim is like getting a whiplash; half the time he has excellent points, the other half he just rambles like a mad man! 😅

Crim's fine with Insurrection because he's never had enough power on the battlefield for it to kill him.

Lol sugar water… really brings me back to that first scene in Men In Black where the guy has the alien parasite inside him and yells at the lady for sugar water in quite possibly the most hilarious voice ever

My old table had a house rule for extra turns that worked for us fairly well. Literally " If you take 3+ extra turns and dont' win the game on the spot, you lose the game for wasting the table's time. " This discourages the "Scuse me while i play solitaire" approach that a lot of those decks have where you're just waiting forever.

Lol at Crim ranking Flawless Maneuver below Deflecting Swat. The fact that spell can hit abilities is INSANE

The consistency of these takes rivals the reasoning of the Rules Committee. 🤣🤣🤣

About the green land ramp, there has been a cool addition recently with confounding conundrum, with they added more similar effects that actually gives answers to this kind of ramp

Tomer: Rhystic study is bad! Anyone: Just play a removal spell Richard: Drannith Magistrate is bad Tomer: just play a removal spell Hmmm……

With the expanded universe cards, id never be mad at someone playing them at my table or even say anything to them about it, but man would it sour my mood and disengage me from play so fast. I want ad block for irl so bad.

I’m definitely much more in favor of symmetric effects and would not be sad for a second to see asymmetric effects go away. Why? Symmetric effects require thought and maybe some creativity.

Personally Drannith Magistrate is fine. It’s a white card that creates a rule, it’s on flavor and dies to removal. It’s 2021 magic has evolved and removal is everywhere. As for UB, with the changes it isn’t as salt inducing. People alter cards all the time to play with different things. The only salty thing about UB is we don’t have the rest of the My Little Pony cards >~>

I'd love to see a "no ramp green" as a commander clash video where all 4 of the players dont use color ramp. To see really how it would go.

The real problem with Insurrection is that it's more "That was an interesting game you were having, but who's going to die now? No I can't kill everyone, but you, yes you, you can't play with us anymore."

My only problem with Drannith Magistrate is that it was created to hose companions and then it didn't. Other than that I appreciate it's existence and run removal so I can use my commander

Fierce guardianship is definitely a S for me not because it counters whatever I’m trying to do that’s fine. But it counters me trying to stop them from just comboing off. It’s a free layer of protection for their degenerate combos. If I hold up mana on turn 3 I don’t want to lose because my opponent just gets to counter it for free. There is no counter play other than just running my own but that also forces me to run a small selection of cheap commanders to try to get it online before my opponent goes off.

Negan: *exists* Heliod: *Akwardly looks everywhere*

I'm a D on Drannith Magistrate. If the three other players can't muster up a removal spell for a 2 drop, people need to change their decklists.

I just started this, but I'm assuming the list will be everyone ranking actual salty cards high, Crim the salt player ranking them low and saying "this is normal fair magic as a blue/black player, and then Crim ranking something fair like Farseek really high. I am also going to bet that 90% of these cards will be in every one of Crim's decks

I feel like one of the criterion for your S-tier should be that you hate the card so much that you REFUSE to even play it…THAT is true salt, when you hate a card so much that you won’t even put it in your 99 (or 98). If you are going to complain about someone else playing a card, you had better not be playing it yourself, otherwise you discredit your argument as to why it shouldn’t be played.

I want Seth to know I agree with almost everything he says on these podcasts

If your deck can't answer a single creature like Dranith Magistrate, there's a good chance it can't answer any problematic permanents, like Rhystic or seedborn muse.

I just couldn't stop looking at Richard's hairstyle for this week, so many 2000's memories. Papa Roach, SoaD, the whole crew.

I actually see where Crim is coming from with ramp being overly powerful. It’s definitely one of the reasons green is the second most if not the most powerful color

Playing against rhystic study really reads "your spells cost one more to cast unless you're stupid"

The discussion about Armageddon.... I've never understood why that card is legal but Balance is banned. I will die on the hill of saying white in commander needs more Balance effects to pull back the blue and black decks that are drawing out their whole decks, and the green decks that are ramping way ahead of everyone else.

love these longer-form podcasts; keep it up!

Tomer literally described dranith magistrate as a salty card without calling it salty. Makes the player who plays it get killed, annoys multiple players and doesnt really progress one's own gameplan. I've never seen dranith magistrate played without it completely hosing some poor soul who just wanted to play their commander and didnt top deck removal.

Seth when asked if he'd disenchant a sol ring: "It's tough because then you're down a card" Seth when someone plays a bounceland: eyes light up and he starts thinking of tutoring strip mines >.>

To Crim's point about the free cycle, what about cards with lieutenant? Or the anthem that gives +X/+X for each time you've cast your commander? These incentivize casting commanders without being the level of bullshit that is fierce guardianship

Tomer giggling while Crim complains about ramp is gold

rofl i just got home from my weekly commander group where i got hated for resolving an armageddon finding this salty tier list video like it was destiny. i closed out the game that already took about 45min 5min after armageddon, but the people just couldn´t stand making nothing but watch and breath for 3 very fast turncycles. really loved to hear your arguments for and against it ♥

As Commander and legendary creatures gets more and more pushed (Golos, Chulane, etc.), I think cards like Drannith Magistrate are needed to combat these powerful commanders.

Drannith Magistrate is a good and fair card. Tomer is right; it's a fault of deck building if you fold to this card.

I really like going over the scale before the list, helps contextualize everything.

Green ramp is only a problem because we are told that land destruction isn’t okay. And what are the worst colors for commander? Red and white? The primary colors that have any land destruction

The problem I have with this is every one has cards that they find salty, you can't iron out every single card and play around that. its different for every one. I also have cards that I dont like, but I have had to learn to deal with them. It is really tricky when there is an additional, unofficial/soft ban list, because now it is just subjective guide lines that are impossible to follow.

They already have mechanics rewarding playing your commander, such as lieutenant. Free spells ain't it, especially when they're so staple-y and expensive.

You all should do saltiest commanders tier list. I think that would interesting to see you guys debate that topic. Keep up the great work.

super down for longer episodes, i really enjoyed this one!

this is weird... first time I hear a podcast where all of the participants make actually good points that do not necessarily attack other opinion and I agree with all of them

"Do you pay the 1?" cards - B - it is a tad bit salty, but I do run them in many decks because of how good they are. It slows the game if the table is responsible or pulls someone way ahead if no one pays for them. But so does every tax strategy. It's a valid way of playing magic. Opp Agent - A - card is too pushed. At casual tables it doesn't matter as much because budget doesn't search as much, but then it strictly punishes green. Would be fine with it if it was sorcery speed or didn't allow for the card to be played. Extra turns - S - when you chain them together. Nothing fun about that. My Niv-Mizzet deck does this, I take it out only with people knowing what they're going into. Counterspells (Fierce guardianship) - C - counters are a stain on magic, but blue has to exist in the color pie so they need to have a way to interact with the game. Should probably be a bit salty about the free ones, but it's 1for1 in a game with 2 other players. You're already at a resource disadvantage. Mass card draw denial - A - these cards would be fine as a safety valve, but they are used offensively which makes them salt inducing as the table loses all gas and the control player has no threat to finish it quickly. Mass land destruction - A - same as above - if it's done in a way where the caster has a dominating position and finishes the game quickly whatever. It's salty only if it unnecessarily drags the game to a halt. Cyclonic - C - it is very strong card and can have unfun playpatterns built around it, but blue needs a "boardwipe" too. Ramp - D - more resources = more magic to be had. Crim is salty because he's manascrewed so often. Magistrate - B - locking out commanders out of the game is not fun. But then again sometimes you run into an entire deck that negates your's. You can rule 0 talk about taking out a single card, it's harder to have someone stop playing a good deck only because it's a hard counter to yours. Sol ring - D - more resources = more magic to be had. In casual you can't abuse it as much as in cEDH so all it does is painting a target on you and will get you killed early or you run off with the game in a boring one sided way - I started taking them out of my decks a long long time ago. Insurrection - A - I'm with Richard on this one - anti-climatic "I win the game" cards that have nothing to do with whatever happened up until that point in the game are not fun. Secret lair cards - C - I will be slightly judgemental about it, because I don't like the concept of the product, but whatever - if you like it and you can afford it play whatever version of cards you want.

Great conversation, gang. Oh, btw, @Seth: You're doing MUCH better with these conversations! In earlier videos you'd get really uncomfortable when people would voice opinions opposite yours, or you'd have a really hard time voicing *your* opposing views. But no longer - and the conversations having improved greatly with your comfort and opposing views. Kudos, man. 🙂

Liked Tomer since i started watching ... felt in love when he started talking about fierce guardianship - right from the heart

For someone who has been playing commander as long he has you'd think he'd remember when the tuck rule existed and everyone's decks were super boring because they just played the best cards in their color because they were terrified of relying on a commander. If Tomer wants to play 100 card singleton with no commander that format already exists, it's called Highlander lol.

Lol I feel like Tomer always rate things on how they affect the format and Everyone else rates them based on how it affects their personal play style.

I loved the longer podcast. An I think doing a commander clash week with zero ramp cards. Like mana rocks or land ramp would be a fun to watch love all your work guys.

Richard forgot the "your opponents" part of Cyclonic Rift. No, not everyone spends the next few turns re-setting their board. Some players do, while a completely and totally unphased person is going ahead unimpeded. It is effectively an Insurrection, but for less mana, at least in terms of the actual impact of the spell. Nothing else mattered before this point, you win now because you had mana to cast a spell that didn't get countered.

I was a little surprised to see Seth score highest overall on the salt scale - I legit thought it would be Tomer

Richard had some very balanced takes. completely agree with him about extra turns.

I'm a fan of your videos being ~ 1 hour. But will probably watch anyway...Lol *Thanks for the Content* !

When I first started playing Commander I had someone pull me aside to explain that "land destruction isn't allowed" talking about single-target, not even Armageddon. He then combo'd out with Thassas Oracle against precons after a 20 minute turn tapping/untapping things and now I struggle to remember why I gave their opinion half a second of thought. Salty over an extremely minor thing while doing that to other fresh players.

Drannith is awful for the reasons Richard mentioned. We build decks around our commanders and in casual we arent just playing our commander and just winning because of it. Usually the deck is designed to do cool things with it tho advance towards a win. Plus you can remove most commanders.

Totally agree with crim I'm so tired of green land ramp. Untouchable ramp is disgusting and the reason green is considered the best color in EDH Meanwhile non green decks lose ALL their ramp to mass artifact removal and nobody gets salty over that but if someone touches a land its massively salty

Opposition agent is just a tutor with more steps. Crim's like "I hate tutors, except when it's a tutor"

Crim is spot on with extra turn spells. Extra turns spend most of your mana for miniscule advantage. Extra turns are almost always by definition durdling. It's not that it's not effective, but other methods accomplish the same thing while respecting everyone else's time more.

Oddly enough, Crim's take on Fierce Guardianship is turning me around on the card. I don't want to see more of these made, but it's true that the white and blue from this cycle help me get out my commander and at least keep it for a round.

Out of all the ramp cards that Crim could choose he had to do Kodama’s reach? Hour of Promise is so much more potent.

26:35 And the new Commander Clash Moment intro sound bite is born.

Drannith Magistrate is great for the format. It incentivizes running interaction, and it also provides opportunities to make deals, which is also very much in the spirit of commander.

If Drannith Magistrate is making you salty above a B tier, then you failed in your deckbuilding. A fundemantal idea of good deckbuilding is having more than 1 win-con and having multiple answers to cards that are hampering your game plan.

To be fair, I understand Tomer's salt about Study in a Seth playgroup. I would definitely focus on Seth over the Study player though. Nothing tilts me like poor play that creates lopsided games.

it's settled. Next commander clash has to be "no ramp no mana rock week"

Dranith Magistrate is fine. I agree exactly with Tomer, the game doesn't require circulating only around the commander.

Drannith Magistrate 100% is salt inducing. Yes, it hits oppressive commanders, but that doesn’t mean it’s not frustrating. 90% of players build their entire deck with their commander in mind. I’ve seen people play strictly worse effects just because they have tribal themes attached. It’s a casual format, people are playing their sweet alternate art commander or a commander with an interesting and unique effect. The card probably isn’t to good, but it definitely is a salt inducing effect. I think if they made cards that gave you a benefit from when your opponents cast their commanders that would be much healthier, or at least something punishing them from casting it. Preventing someone from doing the core aspect of Commander is just too salt inducing.

You guys should try doing it on tiermaker and force yourselves to compromise on the positioning for the cards. I think it would be interesting.

I love how Tomer's point on why a card isn't salty is that when you play it, everyone else gets mad at you and takes you out. 😂

My worst experiences are against combo decks and supressive control decks. The first either does nothing or ends the game. There is close to no relevant interaction with them. (Except counter their combo piece, but deals have no result.) If there is a board wipe each second turn, because there are two control player on the table, it's feels like Armageddon. You can do things, but it doesn't matter. If you play a creature deck, you wait two hours until another player ends the game. I play razia's purification in my tribal tribal deck. If I have UrDragon on the field, it is just a finisher. Compared to other things which everybody seems to accept, it's weird to me what are the "no goes". My personal guideline is: "Make sure everybody can have fun aswell." People came to play magic cards don't prevent that part! It doesn't matter if it's Winter Orb, mass land destruction, 30 counterspells, 15 boardwips or Niv-Mizzet combo. Don't make your playpartner hate the time with you, or you might be alone soon.