The Tuesday Tune Ep 11 - Adjusting spring rate vs adjusting compression damping

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Vorsprung Suspension

Vorsprung Suspension

7 жыл бұрын

This episode of the Tuesday Tune is dedicated to one of the questions we regularly get asked: whether the rider should adjust spring rate or compression damping to achieve a desired effect. This week in the Vorsprung Suspension workshop, we're looking at some of the considerations that determine whether you might want to adjust your spring rate (eg. air pressure or coil spring stiffness) or adjust your compression damping.
A large part of the difficulty in differentiating between the effects of compression damping and spring rate is caused by the fact that the forces generated by the spring are acting in the same direction as the forces generated by the compression damper. As a result, increasing spring stiffness and increasing compression damping both have overlapping effects in that they both make the suspension feel firmer in some way. However, because the spring is an energy storage device, whereas the damper is an energy dissipation device, the way that they generate these forces and the way that affects the feel of the bike vary considerably.
Because of this, increasing compression damping has effects that overlap with the effects of increasing spring rate in some ways (bump harshness, travel usage etc), but also overlap with the effects of decreasing spring rate in other ways (stabilizing/deadening the bike). We take a look at how you can understand these effects so that you can pick the most appropriate adjustment to make when you feel that your suspension isn't quite performing at its maximum potential.
As always, the purpose of this is to explain some concepts, and it is important to realize that every fork and shock has adjustments that behave in slightly different ways, so this is far from a conclusive array of "If XYZ then do ABC" statements. Not all adjusters are effective everywhere in their range of clicks (some adjusters stop doing anything before the dial stops turning), and the variation in damping forces that they can produce can be drastically different from one product to another, as some adjusters offer a broad range of adjustment and others are very much for fine-tuning within a narrow band. In other cases, you may run into limitations with stock air spring curves when running above or below certain air pressures, that cause disproportionately large issues once you firm them up or soften them beyond a certain extent.

Пікірлер: 26
@SkillsWithPhil
@SkillsWithPhil 7 жыл бұрын
This is the first time I've seen anybody break spring rate vs compression down in a chart like this. Really helps make sense of it. The one part I did fully grasp was the overshoot effect that you were describing.
@VorsprungSuspension
@VorsprungSuspension 7 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the kind words. Not sure if you meant "did" or "did not", but if it was the latter, I'll clarify - we use the term "overshoot" to refer to times where the suspension has moved further than was necessary, or effectively overshot the mark. For example, brake dive due to the transient load shift onto the front wheel, blowing disproportionately far through your travel etc are examples of this. IMO this is most noticeable when landing a small drop, say 2 feet up, and noting the time it takes for the bike to push through its travel, slow down, begin to rebound then finally stabilise somewhere near the sag point.
@SkillsWithPhil
@SkillsWithPhil 7 жыл бұрын
Oops yes, I meant "did not". Thank you for taking the time to clarify that part!
@hvrider5650
@hvrider5650 3 жыл бұрын
These are some of the best videos on the internet, you should have a million subs. Will we see a return of the Tuesday tune? I sure hope so
@mitchellvangrieken3900
@mitchellvangrieken3900 2 жыл бұрын
This video is still the best, even after years of more and more content. No numbers of tokens, no sag at 30%, etc. What do you want to avoid and what do you want to feel? The numbers are not the end goal, the feeling is.
@TM-gg7bc
@TM-gg7bc 2 жыл бұрын
I was looking years for exactly that comparison of spring force vs. damping. Thanks a lot 🙌🏼
@GallantLee
@GallantLee 4 жыл бұрын
I always come back to this video... year after year!
@kriskarwisch6321
@kriskarwisch6321 7 жыл бұрын
This really is a great video. Thanks!
@stringalongamax
@stringalongamax 3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant!!!.. thanks for the great info
@adrianward8913
@adrianward8913 4 жыл бұрын
I am working through the series of videos and enjoying them a lot. I worked in F1 / LMP1 for many years, but still seeing how the same topics are applied in MTB is very interesting and a great refresher having, been doing more engine work most recently. Thank you for doing all this filming. One comment I have is - I have always found that with these topics, I need to think about them and look at the graphs / tables when making adjustments to remind myself and not fall into the trap of many counter-intuitive theories (or at least wave my arms around as I think about bounce / rebound / progressive / digressive softer / firmer etc..) What would be good would be to have a small aid-memoir for the trails with some of the key tables / graphs etc so that when you are dialing in that set-up you have a quick reference to look at. Does that make sense?
@lsugimoto8361
@lsugimoto8361 Жыл бұрын
Great content
@harvolev
@harvolev 6 жыл бұрын
Wow, so glad to hear the bit @10:30 about bike parks, however you stopped a bit short, or perhaps I didn't fully understand. My new bike setup I've been struggling to get a good balance with the suspension (Float X2 rear and Talas 36 Fork) and I'm not usually a bike park rider, when I did get the bike onto some jumps I was getting shot out the front to the point where I was too nervous to keep riding the jump lines. I mostly ride natural terrain but would love some tips on what to change for those days. It sounded like you suggest adding more compression dampening while keeping my spring rate the same (since I'm happy with the feel in other trails) Would you recommend adjusting the rebound settings at all or is the compression really my problem?
@zombieqtr
@zombieqtr 5 жыл бұрын
Awesome video very helpful kind sir!, what do you think about people claiming that using a neutral spring rate is the best for ride quality. I have heard people suggest that the spring should be out of the equation, it should only support the proper ride height so the shock could do the work. Softest spring rate possible without loosing desired ride height. Coming from a off-road vehicle perspective here. "A high performance shock can be tuned for high velocity low velocity, high force, low force, you want to your spring to be as neutral as possible and out of the equation" Thanks!
@VorsprungSuspension
@VorsprungSuspension 5 жыл бұрын
With MTBs, spring force is almost always higher than the compression damping force, there is no such thing as it being "neutral and out of the equation" for two reasons: 1. That phrase doesn't actually mean anything 2. The spring is always having a substantial effect on what the suspension is doing
@cedriceveleigh
@cedriceveleigh 4 жыл бұрын
What are the pros and cons of increasing bottom out resistance with increased end-of-stroke damping versus increased end-of-stroke spring rate? I'm assuming increased end-of-stroke damping is possible with clever damper design that is perhaps position-dependent.
@cryalowicki
@cryalowicki 7 жыл бұрын
Question: In order to compare apples to apples, when increasing spring rate wouldn't you generally compensate by increasing rebound damping as well. How would increasing the rebound damping with spring rate change the spring rate to compression damping comparison?
@VorsprungSuspension
@VorsprungSuspension 7 жыл бұрын
It won't affect it greatly unless the rebound adjuster has a substantial crossover effect with compression damping (ie increasing rebound damping increases compression damping as well). Rebound as a motion can be understood as an "available net force" profile (basically a maximum velocity as a function of travel), so if you increase the spring rate but also increase the rebound damping to match, you end up with something that does not tend to extend any faster anyway, so the effects relative to compression damping are not really significant.
@tainted180
@tainted180 2 жыл бұрын
If my shock feels like it's "hanging up" on square hits (rock gardens)should I be changing compression, spring rate or rebound? I did just get a new shock that Ive since realised has a ML tune as opposed to MM tune on my original shock.
@shamsta21
@shamsta21 6 ай бұрын
Try faster rebound and less compression damping
@ThomasTiotto
@ThomasTiotto Жыл бұрын
Wouldn’t the increased liveliness obtained by increasing spring rate be offset by the increased rebound damping that goes along with such a change?
@kim00gibson
@kim00gibson 7 жыл бұрын
Great video! Please use a mic next time!
@utopia2112
@utopia2112 7 жыл бұрын
Respectfully agree. The room's reverb and your manner of speaking makes it harder to hear your good content.
@CW-up7xv
@CW-up7xv 4 жыл бұрын
There is the most important point that wasn't covered. You get a spring that is correct for your body weight. From there, it shouldn't take an increase or decrease in damping, since when rider weight goes up spring rate goes up an equilivant amount. So once you have a good damping setting, increasing or decreasing spring rate should only be done with rider weight changes. Point being, you should never use the damper to compensate for the incorrect spring rate.
@VorsprungSuspension
@VorsprungSuspension 4 жыл бұрын
There is no such thing as a "correct" spring rate. There is a range of appropriate spring rates for any given rider weight depending on the ride characteristic you're after, the terrain and the aggression with which you ride. Likewise, there is no "correct" amount of compression damping, there is an appropriate range; the best point in that range will depend on the terrain, the way you ride, your preferences and priorities. While I agree that you shouldn't use the damper to compensate for a severely out of whack spring rate (or vice versa), the whole point of this video was to illustrate the differences that altering either one can make, and how to pick which version of "firmer" or "softer" you like.
@CW-up7xv
@CW-up7xv 4 жыл бұрын
@@VorsprungSuspension I agree but what I'm saying is all else being equal, if you go up in spring rate with weight you shouldn't need any dampening adjustments. You dial the damper to your liking and leave it, if you gain 50 lbs or lose 50 lbs the dampening should remain constant (IE not correlated to spring rate). Yes springs are for a range, which is why they come in increments. My point is dampening is not correlated to spring rate adjustments unless you're trying to change the characteristics of the damper itself.
@VorsprungSuspension
@VorsprungSuspension 4 жыл бұрын
@@CW-up7xv Actually that's incorrect - your rebound damping (not dampening) will typically need adjusting if you increase your spring rate at a minimum. If you gain or lose 50lbs you will most definitely want a different (higher) compression damping characteristic too, otherwise you have a lower damping ratio and disproportionately more energy is stored/released by the spring. I am not quite sure what the basis for your claims is, but I can assure you that neither the practice nor the theory agree with them - google "damping ratio" for further info. Most of the info that comes up is predominantly relevant to pretty basic mass spring damper systems and automotive applications, but the concepts are largely transferrable.
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