Semantics. The GC movement are united in the main aims.

The bigger divide is between the individuals in society who pretend they don't know what men and women are, and those who recognise the importance of acknowledging biological sex.

See Rex Landy's parody last night "Lucy Is A Guy With Delusions"!

“Has JK Rowling gone too far?”. Answer: no she hasn’t. And thank God for JKR for standing up for women. The pressure needs to be kept up. She did nothing wrong, and the behaviour of these trans activists and the absurd nonsense in sport needs to be called out every time.

Some of them are literary allying with the far right. I think this whole conversation is nonsense. I think people should have the right to live as the gender they feel like. Are they men or women? I fail to see how that is our business. Also, misgendering trans people intentionally is actually pretty mean. I don't see how this is different from anti - gay rhetoric

interesting choice of pronoun

@@glyn1212 let me guess, you're a pink haired, women hating activist.

We women.

@ConnieWobbles you need to use the first person singular, because there is only one of you. (Welcome)

You mean ignorance and prejudice?

Let's hear more of her!

Sex and gender is not that simple.

@@user-kk2pc7ik7t how so?

@@user-kk2pc7ik7t you’re right. Sex is innate and immutable and gender is complicated and the definition of it changes constantly

She is fab isn't she?

You are not alone my sister.

I’m a man and I find it vaguely offensive (at least) when anyone of either sex denies their sex and tries to identify into the other. It’s as ridiculous as claiming to be a different race.

Same, I can't stand liars.

It is not just women who are deeply offended. I am a man and I am deeply offended, indeed, almost enraged. My mother (now deceased) was a woman, my wife is a woman, my sisters are women, and my granddaughter will become a woman in the fullness of time. It is not just women who have "skin in the game." I am a human being and women and girls constitute half the human race. If that is not enough reason, I don't know what could be.

@@DieFlabbergast Quite agree. I'm a woman but I've got five brothers and a father, obviously and they all feel the same as you. I think we forget this effects men too although part of me thinks they want to create division between the sexes by making women think men don't care about girls and women when in actual fact they do and for the reasons you state.

mine too

Mine too mate

And me. Seek out Helen Joyce's book "Trans When Ideology Meets Reality" I can strongly recommend it

I started my personal education on Helen’s book. I’m deeply disappointed that Helen and Julie Bindle have made ANY concessions at all with this person. JK is a freaking JAUGGERNAUT! Love her unwavering dedication to protecting women’s spaces! And Kellie Jay Keen is spot on about all this ceding Helen and Julie are making. In this trans lunacy NO EXCEPTIONS OR COMPROMISES CAN BE MADE. It is CLEAR that the she-males will proliferate and infect our spaces with impunity!

Same here.

This and only this.

JKR has gone too far? By using a bit of irony to make a point! No, putting male rapists in women’s prisons, sterilising young people and men in women’s spaces is going too far.

That goes for all of us. We all could do more

indeed.Not far enough. How about the moon?

Truth!

Heroines! Unless they self-identify as male, but I doubt they do.

Your bar for hero's is very low

this is it

Yep, our kindness has now ruined a large amount of our youth and it’s damaging everyone. Time to be a bitch

Same with immigration, benefits, schooling, being kind has gone too far

Yes, it's also led us to give our country away to people who hate us. Kindness without discernment is dangerous. But I think it might be the feminization of society that has led to this.

What happened to being truthful.

What a profile picture

Agp? I assume that means you have intimate knowledge of their sex life? or are you just assuming

@@connor5669 Debbie wrote a book and has publicly admitted to being AGP

@@Herbie-in-CA Lucy Clark, not debbie

You’re right about that ❤️

She is gorgeous. So intelligent, so clear in her explanations. And I also love how she has let her beautiful hair grow so long and proudly shows off with her magnificient and so very well cared mane. Another point where she breaks free from absurd social restrictions on women. "Mature" ladies should not wear long hair? Not with Helen. And she looks even more fantastic and elegant with her wonderful long hair...

@@ytb40 how you on google chat 💬

@@SolomonChris-bt1my no i am not on Google chat, sorry

@@ytb40 how you on Facebook or instagram?

🤣🤣🤣Dave speaks for no-one but himself, is that Dave the troll or the shimbo who manages a female football team 🤔

@@janemacdonald3732HA!!! That was awesome!! 🤣

How? The ad hominem attacks, trolling and general hypocrisy has been the entire trans position online the entire time.

@@janemacdonald3732 😂😂 what’s a shimbo

The scary thing is, while there's a LOT of people that he doesn't speak for..? He's also managed to VERY successfully groom / infiltrate / manipulate huge parts of the GC movement! To the point that he's even got supposed feminists white-knighting for him, siding with him over hardliners like Kellie-Jay Keen, (she and other hardline TERFs have been treated VERY badly, by many of these self-declared so-called "feminists", who will readily sell out women to protect "nice" AGPs), and going so far as to call him "she", and let him use women's spaces! Because oh, he's a supposed "good one", and at least he does not DEMAND it! He's been playing people SO hard, and made a lot of supposed GCs sell out, and support the exact OPPOSITE of what they claim to stand for! Which has also further fractured the movement! He is an absolute SNAKE, in every way!! ..This matters. Because we can't let it happen again, and people need to REMEMBER it! Plus I think a lot of these so-called "feminists" who sold out real women, who actually sided with their fellow WOMEN, for the sake of AGP men..? Need to be held accountable for it! As they utterly failed at feminism 101, in this case! And they really owe us supposedly super mean, nasty and uncompromising "Ultra" TERFs / GCs, who stay true to our principles, and refuse to call ANY man "she", a goddamn apology! I think ESPECIALLY in the case of Kellie-Jay Keen. Apologize to her, and I'll see that as an apology to ALL of us hardliners. In which case, I guess it would be best for people to forgive and move on, for the sake of CONTINUING to fight this fight. But yes.. they really need to be held accountable!! And AGP men need to stop being "included" in this movement, constantly given platforms to speak, etc. Just.. NO!! Obviously, we can't keep them from speaking. But they are NOT on the side of women, and we should not pretend like they are.

Hear hear!!

If sex and gender were ever truly that simple.

I wish I could help her ,I am not afraid to voice my own opinion of this woke cult and the poison that is being fed to the public too afraid to speak .

@@richardskinner4198 how is it woke? And having an opinion is OK, but it's not special just because you have an opinion

Everybody's opinion should be questioned.It is callled free speech. Isnt that what everyone is going on about on here?

As a WOMAN who gave birth to 2 other humans and stood behind them while they grew into decent, honest hard working adults I'd just like to say 'I AM WOMAN. HEAR ME ROAR'. Now get out of my private space😠

Arrgghhh! Don"t be Woke - wake up BBC!

We need to be vigilant, this is far from over, the ideology has woven itself into everything

Please complain to them, if we keep silent they won't stop. Can you confirm which program it was?

@@springwood1331 They will never stop, they have groomed children to trans via CBEEBIES to back down now would make them culpable, thats a hard pill to swallow.

Trans people are PRETENDING to be critical? Of what? The way their brains work? Of what that means for them? I should just be quiet, but this is just nonsense

He's a man with mental problems. He needs help to see the reality of his untenable position and to understand that the answers to his problems lie not in adopting such a position but to realising that those answers are not reached by fantasy.

You mean that's not a beautiful woman I see before me? wonders will never cease!

Debbie Hayton is one of the saner voices in this debate

Thank you for for your insightful observation. I should point out that 'Debbie' Hayton has already said this on multiple occasions, that he is a biological male, that he is AGP, that trans women are not actually real women and that they should not have access to women's spaces. Given that he is pretty much in agreement with JKR and Helen Joyce I really don't understand why people continue to pursue him instead of the deniers. It's a waste of energy.

Why did he write an article then trying to police women's words and tone in this discussion?

No matter how much abuse women experience, misogynists still think they must always be 'nice'.

Such what?

I think anyone who tweets regularly gets abuse. I know I do. I don't think it gives me carte blanche to say whatever I like, though.

She should have gone to the police when she got the first threat.

Exactly !!!

Can you believe, for the first time ever in history, that men have a problem with feminists?? SHOCKING, really

Rich enough. The ordinary man or woman will have their lives destroyed, such is the enemy we are up against. Eff You Money is the only way past this, same with Trump.

Once you’re retired, you are also impossible to cancel.

Women would be in a far worse place if it had not been for courageous women like Kelly Jay Keen, Helen Joyce and JKR. These women and others with similar views have made it much easier for ordinary people to speak. The more we speak and speak the truth the quicker this nonsense moderates itself.

Good for her! This trans nonsense needs to stop!

@@celteuskara Yes her richness protects her, I'm so glad she uses the power she has others don't to protect them when it would be so easy for her to just walk away, that she says it first so others can go after, that she ofters to protect any who say what she does and don't have her clout to protect her from the police being sent after her.

And shows he is still a man. I can't believe he went there!

Good grief, that old chestnut. Labelled “emotional” held women back from being journalists and newscasters for decades, then when they were finally let in, criticised mostly by men on their looks.

sorry, I don't know that acronym AGP. What does it stand for?

@@sifridbassoon Autogynephile- it's when men get turned on pretending to be women. It's a sexual fetish

​@@sifridbassoon autogynephile

Because thats' exactly what he is.

He’s groomed the children he teaches in school and then he started grooming GC women. JKR thought “enough of this” and ripped his mask off.

Agree, and the whines are ludicrous.

I usually have time for Debbie Hayton but if it comes to siding with women, or men dressing as women, I side with the former. Period. No pun intended ..

HE.

Men and boys..... make no mistake, if it were us that carried the brunt of the burnded when it comes to trans issues, the whole world would have just told us to stop crying about it. So i have little sympathy for the TURFs, about time some of the chickens they let loose have come back to roost in their back yard.😊

With the AGPs it's foreskin and I don't care about the foreskin of a pervert.

What on earth is a victory for diversity anyway? Can anyone explain that? A man gets into the ladies loos and that is a victory for diversity? The world has gone crazy.

The trans activists are much more aggressive and vitriolic. They have been piling on anyone who dares to disagree and calling them nazis,

Quite agree. Helen is wonderful. If only more women and men spoke plainly and directly like Helen.

She has a mathematical brain breathtaking in its clarity and erudition. I am in total awe of her.

@@catherinerobilliard7662me too. I think she might be the greatest woman alive, currently? I’m only slightly exaggerating/joking.

To be fair, it's all she talks about. When the gay marriage debate was raging on in the UK I debated it with *many* people, so it got to the point that I had heard every argument against it hundreds of times. That meant I had a lot of opportunities to put forward every counter argument multiple times, fine tuning them as I went. It therefore became impossible for me to be flummoxed in said debate, because I knew it inside out.

I didn't find it patronizing - only trying to find a middle ground and just being more defensive. Also they were only saying their point of view. Why do people always think that giving an opinion is putting down the other side? I get Debbie points, especially making this person a victim which they are not, but also agree more with Helens point of view. Love Helens bright and logical mind.

GROUNDBREAKING

@@hoppetosse8 There is no "otherside" - transwomen are men.

@@Sarara-mv5sx Not what I said. But well. you do you. Also Debbie Hayton doesn't deny that.

its the worst kind of Orwellian nightmare when speaking the truth is treated as a hate crime.

I am glad it's scaring some women out, it's the one's its not scaring out we have to worry about, they do not understand about protecting their boundaries for their own safety. This is why they are grooming the kids in school, so they are not aware of their boundaries for protection, the adults that are going along with this are shameful, ignorant abusers.

In the Labour Party, Women's sections started to be headed by trans women (eg men) I never went to the meetings precisely because I was uncomfortable with this idea. I think many women here in Nottingham steered clear of the Women's section but they disappeared silently so again, the aggressive behaviour of some trans activists has had a profound effect on our politics.

As Ben Shapiro says: Facts don't care about your feelings 🤷🏻‍♀️

6:41 Biology is biology until TERF women say it's not, then the demand privilege and unfettered access to spaces men have earned.

As Robert Burns said - "A man's a man for a' that"

@@topcat1358 Exactly, well said. Whilst on the topic of Burns. Another great quote from Burns that sums up this ideology: “O, wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, An' foolish notion.”

XX or XY, that’s it.

A domestic abuser via gaslighting his family, and his employers

Who was an adviser on rewriting policy for schools that placed boys in girls toilets and had his students using she/her and Mrs.

Are you an expert here affirming someone is mentally ill? Or just a bigot I suspect

As I've heard a couple of women say recently, NO is a complete sentence.

except they arent

@@glyn1212 Thanks for your input sunshine.

@@glyn1212* *Except they aren't* At least use grammar when insulting writers.

@@Vanadisir I can't, she passed away

@glyn1212 While you are working on your reading comprehension, you could also take a basics course on comedic delivery.

Yes, we have. Hear, hear.

I was so duped. I even used wrong sex pronouns until Maria MacLachlan explained the harm it caused. I had no idea.

The irony of this issue though could probably be traced back to woman’s movement for equality at the beginning of the 1900’s, so what do we have now?; the word woman is some sort of a minefield that most avoid. Have women made a huge mistake by saying that they are equal to men when now that is turned on them by men saying that they are women just by feeling like they are. Be careful what you wish for.

but BOY HOWDY have we got a diversity of delusions goin' on! lol who needs the side show when we got "pride" month? 🤡🤡🤡🏳️‍🌈🤡🤡🤡

Really? Because "Woman" is being diversified to include deluded men.

Exactly. Hayton is a reminder that even amongst otherwise sensible people, they will find a way to perform the mental gymnastics required to make excuses for atrocious behaviours, beliefs, and people.

I absolutely agree. He showed his true colours. It’s all gone too far for him and he wants it to stop.

Dave is gaslighting on a low heat…….

@@laf4891if that was true, he’d say”I’m Dave” .

@@lindalaw5466 he’s an AGP he’ll never say that. He’s saying that the battle is over. It isn’t.

Man's gonna splain.

Not forgetting Posie Parker, the bravest of them all.

100% agree, also Maya & Alison Bailey

Kellie Jay Keene is a true hero!!

IMO Kelly Jay Keen is the bravest and ultimate hero. Unlike other women the OP mentions who have either wealth and/or connections KJK is just an ordinary woman representing other ordinary women to speak. IMO KJK is one of the most successful women's rights campaigners there is. KJKs contribution to protecting female rights along with women like Joyce, Maya and JKR will be taught as part of women's history in the future. I will be ensuring my daughter understands KJK and the LWS movements contribution in protecting her rights as a female. Girls IMO need to see what can be achieved by strong women. Ordinary women would have had little to no voice if it were not for KJK and her LWS. It goes without saying that Helen and Maya at Sex Matters and of course JKR are all heroines and like KJK these women hold the line and have no time for academic BS.

@@joce11 beautifully said; I’ve so much respect for this take. thank you.

Well said!

It'll be interesting to see what happens, though. One of the arguments against Stonewall was that once gay rights had been won, they had to branch into other things to stay relevant. The same will be true with the GC movement. Once they've won, they won't just say "job done, let's stop!" Much of the GC movement is being infiltrated by those on the right and they are absolutely coming for the LGB next, mark my words. We're already seeing anti gay male rhetoric among their talking points already (especially when it comes to attacking drag queens, who are mostly gay men, and implying they're "after the children").

He likes to tell us it is, because he knows when Labour get in, we are in the shite

You still don't realize that feminists pigeon holing men as the enemy is the psychological impetus behind AGPs, so ironic and yet so typical. You can't expect men and boys to accept themselves as shit without some kind of cost, and this is exactly what that looks like; you can't have your feminist cake and eat it too, contrary to what your female entitlement tells you.

Mansplain now seems to mean "a man can't disagree with a woman, if he does then he's just mansplaining". Okey doke.

The reverse appeared to be true, as well. Helen said a few times "I'm sure Debbie and I agree on X" then when on to completely disagree. Both have fully made their minds up and weren't listening to one another.

@@Paul2377 What is happening is that Debbie is the the sort to say one thing and then go back on it and say something different. So Helen is right, Debbie will agree with everything Helen says, and then say something contradictory because he's contradictory.

It may be a courtesy as AGP’s like women to “Be Kind” and, as the indomitable Helen Joyce stated, the “or else” is silent.

Debbie has been very open that they are really male, though, so I do agree to an extent. but it seems that most people don't seem to know that Debbie is actually opposed to trans-bullshit.

​@@JohnSmith-be1vl Dave Hayton is manipulating you, the narrative, the media.

@@JohnSmith-be1vl If he's "opposed to trans bullshit," why does he insist on using female language for himself? He isn't as opposed as he wants you to think he is. He has you completely groomed. When journalists lie about the most basic facts anyone can see, we stop believing them on everything. The media is lying to us and expecting us to continue to trust them.

@@JohnSmith-be1vlah but Hayton has also said he thinks it’s unkind to call TW “men” so no doubt Hayton secretly dislikes being referred to as “he/him” too.

@@JohnSmith-be1vlIt’s an act. He’s only there to make sure that whatever rights women gain back, are acceptable to AGPs.

Bingo!

Also Hayton has said previously he thinks it’s unkind to call TW “men”.

It would certainly be fun to watch but what strategic advantage would it bring us?

​@@nfornewhere has kindness got us??

@@lisac1619 That doesn’t answer the question.

@@nforne no, but it does show it to be a silly question. The strategic advantage it would bring is to not try and fight their BS on their terms, but ours.

@@jibberism9910 When we’re mean to them they lean into their fake victimhood and use our words to persuade reasonable-minded people not to listen to us. And for what? What have we gained?

Thank you Catherine, i was about to say something similar but you beat me to it 🙂

But “Be Kind”, after all - what harm can it do? And we fell for it.

I don’t think Debbie has any illusions there tbh. Debbie knows he’s a man. I’m glad Debbie is part of the conversation, because surely not all trans people are the deluded loudmouth truthphobes that they seem to be? Hating on him is not rational nor helpful. I hate the word transphobic, it always is preceded by ‘I feel that this is…’ which annoys the heck out of me (how you feel has nothing to do with my words or intentions if that’s what you’re getting) but if transphobia itself actually exists as a terrible thing (I honestly can’t tell because from where I stand it seems to mean ‘speaking truth about biology’) it would definitely include hatefully excluding from conversation and badmouthing a person just because they are trans. That’s not on. If he didn’t make his points we would not have anything to argue against, if he has good ones we need to hear them and if he has poor ones we need to hear them in order to address them. As Debbie is one of the few from the other side that are brave and honest enough to engage, we ought to encourage him. Dialogue is vital. I personally think Debbie means well, I see no sinister ‘long game.’

@@ApacheMagic I think he should defend real women more and realise we have been upset and offended by his gang of boys for far too long, then maybe we’d cut him some slack, he really has no idea what it is to be a woman

If Dave really knows he’s a man, why does he insist on being called Debbie?

​@@ApacheMagicDave is a self admitteded fetishist. He wrote and advised on school policy that put boys in girls toilets in schools. He is not an "ally" to the movement for sex based rights.

Dave is a self-confessed AGP. Calling him Debbie tickles his pickle.

Just getting his 15 minutes of being called she/her to indulge his fetish.

His name is Dave Hayton, he’s an AGP, a misogynist and a groomer, as well as a schoolteacher

You still don't realize that feminists pigeon holing men as the enemy is the psychological impetus behind AGPs, so ironic and yet so typical. You can't expect men and boys to accept themselves as shit without some kind of cost, and this is exactly what that looks like; you can't have your feminist cake and eat it too, contrary to what your female entitlement tells you.

He never hid it

Maybe because she's young and terrified of damaging her journalism career

"Magic grandpa told me there are only 2 genders" .OK.

​@@glyn1212There are only two SEXES. Stop using the word gender, you cultist.

Exactly. What an utter joke, isn't it? 😂