TRAINS vs PLANES - which is cheaper, greener & faster?

TRAINS vs PLANES - which is cheaper, greener & faster? | Ep 30

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Күн бұрын

Trains vs planes - why taking the train can be up to 80% cheaper than flying and 17 times greener, according to new research published by the Rail Delivery Group. We examine the findings in detail… and discover some surprising facts along the way.
Rail ‘fat cats’ earn big bonuses, while passengers face worse performance… but is that really true? According to the Daily Mirror it is, but we don’t agree.
We have a bit of an update on the Jacobite steam train and its return to service, but many questions still remain unanswered.
Is the heritage railway sector in crisis? We discuss our recent experience having fun with steam trains on the fantastic Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railway’s ‘Snowdonian’ and some of the conversations we had about the fate of the heritage railway sector more widely.
And… it’s Railway Family Week and you can get involved!
In this episode:
00:00 Intro
03:21 Reflections on our interview with Ex-Department for Transport Permanent Secretary Sir Philip Rutnam (which you can watch here: • The Inside Story: Gove... )
05:28 Jacobite steam train update
09:21 Avanti West Coast and CrossCountry rail ‘fat cats’ get £1 million each as passengers face cancellations
13:16 Trains vs planes
26:04 Is the heritage railway sector approaching a crisis?
41:14 Railway Family Week
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Green Signals:
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Credits:
Presenters - Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)

Пікірлер: 129

@BecsterDotCom 3 ай бұрын

It was great meeting you at the Snowdonian! And I’m glad you enjoyed. We had such a great day chasing you over the 80 miles! I find the future of heritage railways to be such an interesting topic. I agree with you that there are two differing “camps” when it comes to the heritage sector - those who are embracing the tourism side of it and thus the commerciality of it, and those who want it to remain as a purely transport railway. Maybe it’s the accountant in me but the financial reality of the situation is that heritage railways absolutely must embrace the tourism/attraction factor in order to survive. The amount of comments I’ve seen from people complaining about this fact is staggering - complaints about the named services on the FR for example and then complaining about no decent timetables…but without the money coming in then no trains can run. Running empty trains just isn’t viable and a pure waste of money. I digress but let’s face it, I’d much rather my beloved railway becomes a touristy attraction than for it to close and be lost. I do fear about the future when thinking about the coal situation though. I’m not sure there’s a good alternative but hey what do I know 🤷‍♀️ I’ll look forward to your discussions about the future of the industry.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks and it was great to see you too! The best railways are the ones who understand the changing environment and market then act with speed to adapt to those new conditions. The FR has done just that and are to be highly commended. In the end I’m afraid you have just have to ignore those who resist change. Be kind of course, but ignore them and move on. We look forward to delving deeper into the heritage sector in due course! Cheers. Richard

@philwoodward5069 3 ай бұрын

All I can say is that for the last two football seasons, I have been incentivised to fly from Newcastle to London because of the costs. The plane was cheaper by £20 on one occasion and £28 on the other, comparing the cost from Newcastle Airport to Heathrow Airport against the cost from Newcastle train station to Kings Cross. My excess costs to get to Newcastle airport were about £2 for an additional zone's validity on my Tyne & Wear Metro day ticket that I would have needed anyway, and my excess costs to get home from Heathrow were about £5 over and above the cost of getting home from Kings Cross. I didn't need any excess baggage and I didn't want or need to pay to choose my seat. People are not stupid and do take the cost, in time and money, of getting to and from the airport into account. It was still better to fly on that occasion because the train fares are simply too high. Perhaps the RDG and the TOCs it represents should spend less time producing propaganda and just make sure train fares are competitive?

@superted6960 3 ай бұрын

Interesting. As far as I'm aware the flights will have received no taxpayer subsidy whereas the train will. There's an argument there that says the railway is already the beneficiary of an unfair competitive practice.

@philwoodward5069 3 ай бұрын

@@superted6960 Only if you don't regard the extremely light taxation of aviation fuel and of airports (which pay nothing like the business rates they should considering the enormous amount of valuable suburban land they take up) as a subsidy. There's nothing inherently wrong with subsidy in any event. It's a question of what you choose to subsidise.

@chairmakerPete 3 ай бұрын

@@philwoodward5069 does rail use red diesel or are they paying pump prices? What level of business rates are train operators paying on stations? Genuine question - interested to know whether we're subsidising rail, air, or both.

@philwoodward5069 3 ай бұрын

@@chairmakerPete I don't know but the railway uses a heck of a lot less fuel per passenger mile than aviation so even the same level of subsidy through tax breaks per Kilojoule of fuel would automatically be much bigger for aviation. I'd have thought you'd want to tax less energy efficient modes at a higher rate, but it appears not.

@richardwakeley2192 3 ай бұрын

Train is definitely greener, especially on branch lines. They don't cut the undergrowth much now, so you have a very green view from the windows. Even the leaves and branches brushing against the sides of the train.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Ah, I see where you went with that!

@BobLongworth 3 ай бұрын

Enjoying the podcasts this week, Sir Philip Rutnam interview was excellent. RDG's rail and air comparison seemed to have bypassed the core question of why people choose air over rail and what was the journey purpose. Not all trips are city centre to city centre and passengers with cabin baggage have faster entry and exits. Nor do they all use taxis; some airports have rail links too! On Manchester - London when Virgin took over the franchise in the late 90s the forecast was for a gradual switch to rail for city to city trips leaving a smaller number of flights mainly for interlining at Heathrow. In the short term though flights significantly increased because the rail service became overly long and unreliable. Once the WCML 3 per hour service started passengers switched back to rail and the air services reduced to a small flights to LHR only which will stay as long as BA finds them useful for its Heathrow interlining passengers. Edinburgh - London is a big market but it's not a single airport at the London end which suggests the origins/destinations are not just to central London. The ECML rail service needs to be faster (nearer to 4 hours) to compete more effectively but since the government has canned HS2 north of Birmingham we'll have hope that further improvements to ECML will help. The Manchester - London experience showed what can be achieved when rail gets its act together, but equally so what happens when the wheels fall off (metaphorically!).

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Thanks Bob. Some great points there. And yes, Philip was excellent wasn't he!

@simonaltham9054 3 ай бұрын

The Pendolino to Manchester took away the vast majority of point to point traffic from the airlines, the remaining flights cater mainly to connecting passengers to/from long haul or longer european destinations.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

A point that many have made, Good one.

@guyb3785 3 ай бұрын

Great video again.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Thanks!

@michaelhatfield1565 2 ай бұрын

Crewe is the odd one out as the football team has a unique second name (Crewe Alexandra). The others have second names shared by other football teams - County, Town and Albion

@simonaltham9054 3 ай бұрын

The "fat cat" claims are just a repeat of the claims made by the RMT and ASLEF in the past, where they claimed that group profits came only from their UK train operations, and not their national and international bus services.

@GreenJimll 3 ай бұрын

I'm not very involved with the heritage rail sector these days, but back when I was it seemed entirely usual for some railways (including some big names) to appear to teeter on the brink of bankruptcy most of the time. Considering how belts have had to tighten since Liz Truss and her chums screwed UK plc, I'm not surprised to hear that some heritage lines are struggling that either aren't laser focused on visitor attraction or haven't diversified their income streams.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

I think the belt tightening and diversified income streams point have been required for quite some time before Ms Truss came on the scene.

@MartinKing-sc1pn 3 ай бұрын

What's happening to the new Class93 trimode loco. I belive the first example was delivered to the customer the rail delivery group last June but information on what has happened since are a mystery. I belive there are nine other built locos sitting at the manufacturer in Spain. Love your channel Martin King

@Teesside_Biker 3 ай бұрын

I agree that short internal flights between cities doesn’t make sense for city centre to city centre but if you are travelling to a major airport from a regional airport to then transfer to a long distance flight the story is completely different. If I fly from Newcastle to London to then fly again on to any where a few hours away it just doesn’t make any sense to take the train to Heathrow instead of flying there. If I fly with the family with full sized luggage it’s a complete pain to do it by train. If I fly I can check the luggage in at Newcastle and not see it again till my final destination. The point I’m trying to make is not everyone is going city centre to city centre when trains do make sense.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Fair points.

@gwab100 3 ай бұрын

York was a carriage and wagon building centre rather than the others which built locomotives as well

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

True. But is it the answer I had in mind? Tune in next week to find out!

@blomband 3 ай бұрын

Yabber on lads! Love it.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Excellent. We will continue to yabber on.....

@gorgu08 3 ай бұрын

Also on the Edinburgh airport to London thing remember Edinburgh airport is on the north west of Edinburgh, so it also mops up traffic from the west of Glasgow, Stirling, Kirkcaldy, Perth AND Dundee, not just Edinburgh

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Yes, that's a fair point.

@anylex5328 2 ай бұрын

Quite right, but I think you mean east of Glasgow. RDG should compare trains with air plus trams/buses/other trams not taxis which just diminishes their argument.

@simonaltham9054 3 ай бұрын

Quiz. Swindon is the odd one out, it's the only one who's operator changed/amalgamated pre BR. Swindon - GWR. Crewe - LNWR/LMS, Derby Midland/LMS, Brighton - LBSCR/Southern, Darlington NER/LNER

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Goodness - that's an answer almost as tortuous as mine are!! But is it the right one? All to be revealed this week.....

@denisjones7836 3 ай бұрын

Have you any plans to have Barry Doe as a guest? It would be fascinating to hear his views on ticket harmonising. Thank you.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

We did have Mark Smith on (The Man in Seat 61) who is widely regarded as the leading ticketing and fares expert. Worth a listen to what he had to say if you can.

@just_some_northerner356 3 ай бұрын

Quiz - Derby is the odd one out as it's still being used in the manufacture of rail vehicles where the other four aren't

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

So it is (as in still building rail vehicles) But is it the answer I had in mind? Tune in next week to find out.

@Adam-pk2te 3 ай бұрын

Great listen as always Quiz, answer guess. Brighton because it wasn't part of BR?

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Good point. But is it the right answer? All revealed next week.

@scottturner5655 3 ай бұрын

Derby is the only one of the towns without mainline electrification.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Good point. But is it the right answer! Tune in next week to find out.....

@TheFrogfather1 3 ай бұрын

Hi Nigel and Richard, I'm really enjoying the podcast. The section on rail being greener raises a question relating to a trip the teen and I made yesterday on TransPennine from Edinburgh to Dunbar. The train was travelling between Edinburgh and Berwick on Tweed - an entirely electrified route - and as far as I could tell was able to run as electric (i.e. it had a pantograph), but in both directions it was running as a diesel. Any idea why?

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Presuming it was a Hitachi Class 802 (Nova 2 in TPE speak) and therefore bi-mode, no, I've no idea. Very odd.

@MervynPartin 3 ай бұрын

It was probably due to the restricted power supply capacity on that route. I am not sure when the promised upgrade will be completed. With the Azumas having replaced the former loco hauled sets and also Lumo trains running, the system cannot support the extra load of TPE trains. Rather like the government telling everyone to drive electric cars when there aren't enough charging points available.

@MervynPartin 3 ай бұрын

As I normally do following the video, I check the previous answers to the quiz and this week there seems to be several valid answers for different locations, so hoping this is different- Swindon, which had to be built near a canal on Brunel's orders (The Wilts and Berks Canal) in order to obtain coal supplies. The canals, of course, were later put out of business by the railway. Apart from that, great subject matter as usual. Where I live in Norfolk, I could drive to Norwich airport and fly to Aberdeen much cheaper and quicker than travelling by train from King's Lynn (my nearest station). I would naturally apologise later for the carbon emissions.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Goodness - I am being fact checked! Brilliant answer though. Listen in to see if correct......!

@Rhylmr 3 ай бұрын

There is no one size fits all solution for heritage railways. There are some railways that have been caught out by declining passenger nos and high costs particularly staff costs. To be incisive about it you need to interview people from all different types of heritage lines and not just FFWHR and IoWSR.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

A fair comment. There is plenty of variation between railways. But there are some general themes. However, we will try and speak to a broad cross-section over the coming months.

@Rhylmr 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals Garry Mumford would be top of my invitee list. I'm involved with two smaller rlys and for the moment both seem to be fairly financially robust. For us continuity of personnel is as much an issue as money.

@chrispeel9263 3 ай бұрын

BA used to offer free flights from Manch to Heathrow if you are connecting with a long haul flight.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

But not now surely?

@chrispeel9263 2 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals Pretty sure they don't any more!A pal is going to Vancouver from Manch next month and has to pay for the shuttle.

@gorgu08 3 ай бұрын

Genuine question but would it be more prudent to finish the Birmingham to Crewe section of HS2 and then focus on NPR (HS3) upgrades across the north and WCML upgrades and bypasses north of Crewe to increase productivity and connectivity across the northern cities and into Scotland, thus reducing carbon footprint and then doing the B’Ham, Manchester, Leeds as HS4?

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

It would certainly make sense to focus on Phase 2A (the section from Birmingham to Crewe) first because a) it's relatively straightforward, b) it has an Act of Parliament and c) it would be transformational for the whole of the WCML. Other upgrades could be considered / developed in parallel.

@fatwalletboy2 3 ай бұрын

Brighton, the others were under BR

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Ah, so when did Brighton close?

@alanbuckett 3 ай бұрын

Quiz: from the list given, only Crewe built overhead electric locomotives during BR days

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Indeed. But is that the correct answer? Tune in next week to find out!

@alanbuckett 3 ай бұрын

But, of course 😊

@jasonmatthews5173 2 ай бұрын

Crewe actually built and repaired Diesel locomotives, ie Class 47, 56.

@MADALY01 3 ай бұрын

Brighton locomotive works also made cars, well they made Isettas.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Indeed - perhaps a bit of a stretch to call an Isetta a car!!

@johng5474 3 ай бұрын

I think most flights between Manchester and London are feeder for international flights rather than city to city generation. This is probably true of most UK airports. These passengers would not want to go into the centre of the city. I look forward to the day when the UK follows France's lead and find ways to connect Heathrow and other major airports to the inter-city (future high speed) network.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Not sure that’s as true of the Scottish airport though?

@MrDixie951 3 ай бұрын

Thoroughly enjoying the debates and discussion point, fantastic as usual gents but and only a slight but, i work on the railway and from where i live, you would not trust the service provided to get you anywhere if it was important. A really good rail corridor may mean something but not up here it doesn't

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Which begs the obvious question as to whereabouts you are!

@MrDixie951 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals West Coast Cumbria, so it's Northern, Avanti and TPE we have to rely on 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

@allanmorton6022 3 ай бұрын

Never convinced by these train vs plane comparisons. Seem like a journalistic rite of passage to me. It all depends on where you are starting and going to. Many people live west of Heathrow. Although KX-EDI is 4hrs it actually takes 6.5hrs from Berkshire to Fife. This is the same as driving with one stop. Although plane is quicker it depends on how long trip to airport is and whether you can be picked up at destination or have to take bus etc. Its not always price but convenience as well. Enjoyed this episode but think full jacobite story still to be revealed.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

All good points Allan. And we still watch the Jacobite with interest....

@richardbarrow3109 3 ай бұрын

Crewe - the only one to cast ships anchors!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

I had no idea. When were they doing that?

@richardbarrow3109 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals LNWR days

@kennethyarham7604 3 ай бұрын

Interesting pod. However, the only reason the Manchester to London flights exist is to enable direct connection into BA's or other One World partner's global network from Heathrow. Same with the Newcastle flights I believe.

@jamescotton01 3 ай бұрын

Exactly. That is why originally proposed HS2 was supposed to serve Heathrow. It would have needed some airlines to offer combined tickets.

@jonty1512 3 ай бұрын

Quiz Answer - Pre British Railways Lovers Walk @ Brighton was the only railway works in the question to build 3rd rail electric loco's & emu's where the other railway works in the question only produced steam or diesel loco's & DMU's

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Thanks Jonty - tune in this week to hear if that is the correct answer!

@Upper_Redcroft_Light_Railway 3 ай бұрын

Today chaps I was on a Transport for Wales 158 from the beautiful Aberystwyth. We arrived at Welshpool where a lady joined our table for four. The most polite guard came along and told her that her fare to Llandudno would be £43.70. Immediately she complained to the guard, stating that yesterday the guard told her it would be £27-something, as this would be classed as an advanced ticket. She, on her laptop also found the next train, also at this lower advanced rate, but once she was on the train as she was, the fare had increased. I'm a regular rail user and we definitely need the growth and to get people on the railway. The ticketing system needs to be a common fixed price for the non-rail enthusiasts, value for money and reliable but realistic imo. I agree with this lady, who made it quite clear that the price hike was unnecessary and she hadn't budgeted for it. Tricks like this don't make people trust our railways and I hope the reforms address this.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Pricing can be a very useful demand management tool and I suspect that will be a feature of the model even once it is reformed. But clearr information so it's understandable and people know exactly what they are going to pay depending on where and when they travel is essential. It is still to difficult to navigate at the moment.

@robp4682 3 ай бұрын

Was Brighton the only one to maintain only Electric Trains?

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

I don't know. But I'm not entirely sure that counts as an answer anyway! 🙂

@silkmoth6316 3 ай бұрын

The works at Brighton were closed priot to the creation of BREL, so nave became part of that group, whereas the other works did

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks - good point. But is it the right answer? Tune in next week to find out.

@silkmoth6316 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals It's right, but is it the asnwer you were looking for?

@smoppett 3 ай бұрын

I offered Passenger Focus a comparative return journey (London Newcastle) at my own expense about ten years ago but Anthony Smith never took me up on the offer.

@MrDavidht 3 ай бұрын

Crewe, the other towns existed before the arrival of the railways.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks. Tune in next week to see if that's right!

@andyknott8148 3 ай бұрын

Yes I think the town was called Haslington. (and the Telephone Exchange was called Bradshaw, for reasons obvious to most on this channel).

@BenRattigan 3 ай бұрын

We recently did Eurostar to Paris, £168 on LNER from Darlington then £277 for Eurostar 2 people total return £445. I don’t think that was too bad and I’d reckon flying wouldn’t be much cheaper. If Eurostar could do a deal with LNER to get a lower cost connection to St Pancras so you could book all the way through they’d be onto something.

@BenRattigan 3 ай бұрын

Even a deal with Grand Central, Lumo etc.. Sunderland to Paris service would be a winner.

@BecsterDotCom 3 ай бұрын

We did North Wales to Disneyland Paris and priced up flying from Manchester vs train from Bangor. It would’ve been £300 cheaper for us to fly (that’s a group of 4 of us) but it would’ve cost us approx £120 to get to Manchester. So flying would’ve been ever so slightly cheaper but where’s the fun in that 😂

@BenRattigan 3 ай бұрын

@@BecsterDotCom it was so much more relaxing by train, far less stressful than flying. I remember my grandad as a kid taking us all the way to what was the Yugoslavia by bus because he was a Yorkshireman and didn’t like spending money and also hated flying, but we got to see far more than we would have flying.

@user-iz1ht3ut1m 3 ай бұрын

York made carriages!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Indeed it did!

@superted6960 3 ай бұрын

There's no way anyone sensible would ordinarily use a plane to get from Manchester to London. Except that assumes people are going centre to centre. The air market is surely tapping into travellers who are travelling on from Heathrow to distant international destinations, probably not served by Manchester airport. If there wasn't a market for it, the airlines wouldn't fly it.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Fair point that some people are transferring onto long distance flights at Heathrow - though even then, imagine a fast direct service to Heathrow by rail from Manchester. What a thing that would be……

@jasonmatthews5173 2 ай бұрын

It's already possible, change at Hayes & Harlington and Reading for Cross-Country to Mamchester Piccadiilly.

@dingletrain 3 ай бұрын

Don’t get me wrong the F&WHR is an excellent organisation and certainly a bar to aim for, but day is operating multi million pound organisation. Not every railway organisation is at that level. A lot of other railways are much smaller affairs with limited volunteers and limited resources. We run a heritage railway in Ireland and struggle to operate day to day to get volunteers. We’ve seen some railways in the uk say they “only” have a couple of hundred volunteers when we have about 10 active volunteers. Love the podcasts and think going into the heritage sector would be fantastic, particularly highlighting larger organisations and smaller ones.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for your kind words and feedback. Certainly agree there are many different types of heritage railway and each does have to adapt differently. It I guess there are some common themes. We’re looking forward to exploring this in more detail.

@dingletrain 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals wonderful, really enjoy listening in folks

@gquayle 2 ай бұрын

York. all the others were loco works. York was only a carriage and wagon works.

@stephendavies6949 3 ай бұрын

Is Brighton the odd one out, because it was never a BREL works?

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Ooh, good spot. But is it the right answer......?

@stephendavies6949 2 ай бұрын

@GreenSignals Fingers crossed.... I guess it'll be down to the hard-nosed adjudicator to rule on that!

@Richardhill1978 3 ай бұрын

The Bowker brainteaser tricks again I’ll be thinking locomotive works is the answer crew and it’s brickworks

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Hmmm. But is that the right answer Richard? Tune in next week to find out!

@Richardhill1978 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals wonder what else other works had going on on their manor

@tonygillett6428 3 ай бұрын

Darby is the only city still building trains?

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Yes, I suppose it is. But is it the correct answer?

@spencergibbens8466 3 ай бұрын

Crewe as the others all have carriage works!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks - but is it the right answer? Tune in next week to find out.

@grahamallen1970 3 ай бұрын

Glad you liked the redacted quip! Keep up the good work....cracking to have podcast on doing jobs around the house

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

We aim to please! Glad we make the household chores less tedious too!

@grahamallen1970 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals no you miss understand.... listening to a boring podcast makes the house work fell like fun! 😄only joking ...love it

@grahamallen1970 3 ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals no you miss understand.... listening to a boring podcast makes the house work fell like fun! 😄only joking ...love it

@fatwalletboy2 3 ай бұрын

I wonder what % of those flying london to edinburgh are domestic or foreign visitors????

@derekgibson7037 3 ай бұрын

York. Didn’t build engines.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Thanks Derek. Tune in this week to hear what we think is the correct answer!

@796karen 3 ай бұрын

York never built any locomotives unless this question is as duff as your distrct council question

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Ouch. 😇

@chairmakerPete 3 ай бұрын

Rail can't compete with air for cost, comfort or time. It requires French government legislation to take away the air option, otherwise left to themselves, people choose it. Edinburgh to London is a super-busy air corridor because people are making a conscious choice to use it. As the old adage goes, 'build three miles of runway, you can go anywhere in the world. Build three miles of railway, you can go three miles - if the signals and points are working and the drivers aren't on strike!' The assumption is that people are in London city centre, but for many of us, we're coming in from the country, so Heathrow or Gatwick are closer to our homes than Kings X. In other words, there's a cost saving in not having to commute into London to go out again. Love the trains, but they are a basket case. Loving the show! 😉

@stuart48br 3 ай бұрын

In France, it is passengers that made the decision to go by train - the trains are comfortable and fast on the high speed routes, and with Ouigo, you have a low cost option. TGV killed the Paris-Lyon air option years ago, and only still exists for international connections at Air France's one and only international hub at CDG. For rail to compete between Paris CDG and Lyon, frequency would have to be improved to hourly from every 2/3 hours, but if times work out it is competitive, and in fact sometimes Air France offer it instead of flying.

@chairmakerPete 3 ай бұрын

@@stuart48br given that information, I wonder why the French government felt it necessary to legislate to outlaw internal flights? 🤔 I'm all in favour of letting air, road and rail compete. What I'm against is artificial blocks on competition by taxing one form of transport to subsidise another. Rail is such a perfect case for automation, it should be capable of providing low-cost mass transit through efficiencies that road and air operators could only dream of.

@stuart48br 3 ай бұрын

@@chairmakerPete The French government has invested massively in high speed rail since 1970s, and is streets ahead of UK on reducing carbon emissions - you don't see many unnecessarily large SUVs on French roads because they have a sliding scale of VED. The legislation only covers flights where the rail journey is less that 2h30, and allows connecting flights, so really only follows what passengers are already doing, but it does prevent any slipping back. You don't hear any complaints about it in France. Electrified French rail travel is close to zero carbon because most French electricity comes from nuclear power. UK government has totally messed up UK rail in the last few years - scrapping HS2 Phase 2, keeping the rail strikes going, failing even to implement its own policy such as Great British Railways - it chose the HQ (political) but failed to do the legislation, and allows the operators it runs or finances to compete against each other. As far as automation is concerned, mass transit has been automated for years in some cities, but it is still many years away for the mainline railway, and not only because of the massive investment needed in resignalling.

@stuart48br 3 ай бұрын

Today, it only affects Paris Orly to Bordeaux, Lyon and Nantes. Look up train times and frequencies and you will see it is a no-brainer

@chairmakerPete 3 ай бұрын

@@stuart48br "...so really only follows what passengers are already doing...". Exactly. Why legislate for something people have chosen? Like insisting everyone buys a smartphone rather than a 1980s brick. "...they have a sliding scale of VED". So do we. "... most French electricity comes from nuclear power." Thank Nick Clegg for stopping UK nuclear investment back in 2010 (because it wouldn't be on-stream until the mid 2020s - i.e. now!). "...scrapping HS2 Phase 2". £36bn project already costing well over £100bn for a small portion of the original design. It was politically untenable to the man in the street to keep spending like drunken sailors on it when people can't pay their gas bills. "...keeping the rail strikes going". Pretty sure it's Mick Lynch who's calling the strikes, not Sunak. Train drivers are on a massive screw: good luck to them, but they're pushing it a bit to claim any sort of poverty. "...allows the operators it runs or finances to compete against each other". Nope - government runs every aspect of rail. It subs out the running of some operations for a management fee. There's no real, unbridled competition - Whitehall decides everything. "... [automation] is still many years away for the mainline railway". True. There doesn't even seem to have been any test programmes yet, so it'll be another country inventing it and we'll have to buy it from somewhere innovative like China.

@charlo90952 3 ай бұрын

There should be a carbon tax.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Slightly random comment. What stimulated that - the notion of flying perhaps?

@NorfolkandGood66 3 ай бұрын

I am of the camp that I will travel whatever way is most convenient to me. If that is the train from Newcastle to London so be it. If that is the plane NCL to LHR , also so be it. The ‘green’ argument doesn’t enter into it. Nor does cost unless totally lunatic (which both trains and planes can be at times).

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

I suspect that’s true of many people.

@MervynPartin 3 ай бұрын

A valid point. During some major electrical work at a power station where I was employed in Essex, I needed to visit a contractor near Newcastle. My employer offered a hire car, which would have meant an overnight hotel stay in Newcastle. A train journey would have meant the same. Solution- I flew from Stansted and was able to return the same day, and with no luggage to carry.