It wasn't just that Ned found Jaimie having killed the king, it's that he also found him sitting on the throne while his father was busy sacking the city after giving the false impression that he was there to reinforce it. That just made it look like an outright Lannister powergrab with Jaime and Tywin having conspired for this outcome all along. That's why Ned judged Jamie that harshly.

The funny thing is that Jaime is still too proud at their later meeting to admit the real reason/final straw why he killed Aerys. Ned does know what conflicting vows are (he was involved in a rebellion after all) and we see him prioritize protecting children over other duties.

I'd say the biggest issue Ned had with Jaime was the timing of it all. Jaime could have killed the mad king at any point since he was always around him but he chose to do it only after his father had already entered the city and it was over for Aerys anyways. Ned didn't know about the wildfire thing so to him it looks like Jaime was team Aerys until Aerys lost them he jumped ship. Jaime sitting on the iron throne was not a good look either.

It's tragic that the one deed that truly defined him as a true Knight was twisted into a condemnation of him as the vilest betrayer ever. This series is something else

Deep down Jaime's always admired Ned but he's too proud to admit it even to himself

To be fair to show Ned, the blow Arthur took from Howland was fatal, it was almost a mercy killing. And completely different context, if Jaime had killed Ned in the street there Robert would have arrested him.

That pic of Sean bean holding ice is always hilariously Ned thuggin out fo' da gram.

I never viewed them together like that. They parallel each other so much.

I don't think it is unreasonable of Ned to dismiss will/the deserter. Come on, every time someone runs from the wall and claims the Others scared them off you're going to launch an investigation?

There is one element of what winning the swordfight woul prove that you missed. In GoT, where trial by combat is a well established concept, winning a sword fight could actually prove you are just. Though I don't think this was author's intent (cool swordfight goes brr) I think it's a nice interpretation, on top of the simpler (and probably correct) explanation that it was about Jaime's ego.

To be fair they came in to see Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne he definitely wasn’t helping his public image 😅

I've always wondered how important the detail that Jamie was sitting on the Iron Throne was. Jamie seems to think Ned was judging him based on the dead king, but it was more than that, wasn't it? Lannister banners were up, the dead Targaryen children were wrapped in Lannister colours, and there Jamie is sitting on the throne. Jamie looked terrible in that position, of course Ned was judgemental. The mundane version is that Ned disapproves of the Lannister opportunism and baby-killing in general, and Jamie seems very untrustworthy by sitting on the throne. I mean I've read Jamie's thoughts and even I don't fully understand what he was thinking by sitting there. The fun version I entertain sometimes is that Ned knows a bit about Raegar's prophecy, and something about evil deeds by a Lannister/lion on the iron throne is included in the prophecy, so Ned is very deeply concerned by the sight... even though the prophecy was actually referring to Cersei.

I think you're spot on. It's fun to see a more grounded and less magical vid from you. I was waiting for you to tell me how Jaime is actually the Night's King and also Qaith. And a horse.

Being a fan even after this many years can be still be rewarding! Thanks for that, it somehow never occurred to me in the fashion you just supposed. Great job :)

Amazing videos Ser! Every time I think that you won't top your last video you go ahead and do it again that's outstanding!

Those parallels you pointed out at the end literally blew my mind! 🤯😭 Gotta love long form videos like this.

I think Jamie doesn't believe that Ned killed sir Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy with skill-honor (he likely didn't). I don't think it's about Jamie proving himself to be the best so much as proving Ned is a liar

great video as always michael! always excited to see what you make next!

Really good analysis of this importance of this fight for Jamie! I had never thought about it that way before. But it certainly makes a lot of sense.

I think a big difference here is also psychological. Jaime seeks validation for his actions (and we could go into why, because of Tywin and Cersei and so on). But the very need to seek validation is what creates the disdain from Ned's eyes. The Starks bear their duty. When Ned breaks his duty, he does so and bears it without seeking approval. He bears it and accepts what comes with the dishonor. And that is the difference between the two men. It is not that Ned cannot conceive of breaking a vow, or doing something dishonorable. It is that he believes you accept the consequences of that decision. Ned is willing to take the black and be branded a traitor, because he believes there are more important things than honour. However he would never try and seek validation for his actions to another, like Jaime Lannister, and this is why when he tries to appeal to Ned, Ned shows disdain. He expects a true kingsguard to accept the consequences of his actions. I actually think that Jaime starts to learn this lesson throughout the story after he loses his hand. I love their comparison, because they are similar in many ways. And different in interesting ones.

Excellent video

awesome video bro can’t believe you don’t have more subs

Very good video bro

Good foookin video!!

You know I like the idea of recapturing as much of the good from the show as possible. It was fun while it lasted to share a phenom with everyone superbowl style but now its an ecosystem of real fans.

Without watching the video: Jaime wants a fight with Ned over Ser Arthur Dayne. All of Westeros knows the story of the Tower of Joy.

I have no idea why you have so little subscribers, your theories on ASoIaF are so on point!

Awesome. Never would have put that much stock into that scene

Jaime had a very specific reason for not killing Ned and it had nothing to do with honor. Ned specifically states kill me and your brother is as good as dead. Ned on the other hand, killed Arthur Dayne as an act of mercy. Had nothing again to do with honor. Either he could leave Arthur to bleed out or he could put him out of his misery much like you do for an animal with a serious injury.

Jaime was the realest most loyal person in this whole show. He is the GOAT of TV history! He deserves his flowers. Give him his 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹

Ned not telling people he didn't defeat Dayne in single combat is the most dishonorable thing he did in the show/books

I mean the real reason was because it was cheaper to film.

I think a crucial part of dialogue you’re missing is when Ned goes on to say “you served him well, when serving was safe.” Ned would have respected what Jamie did had he done it earlier when it actually might’ve cost his something, but saved someone else.

How was Eddard executing Will a “bad choice”? It was all really par-for-the-course. I understand Will was fleeing a supernatural boogie man, but he fled from the far north, over the wall, and past his sworn duty. He could have stopped at Castle Black, but he didn’t.

The show may have lacked the story-in-a-story complexity and the deeper use of symbolism, but there were some truly great moments, and the first scene between Tywin and Jamie was one of them.

16:30 Well, one was stabbed in the leg (granted, in that time, it might have been deadly still) and the other one got stabbed THROUGH THE SPINE, NECK, AND THROAT so Ned basically mercy-killed Ser Arthur, it's not like he could feed him some bread and call it a day Video-Game style. Also, the situation was quite different, Ned was trying to save and free his sister, it was a clear war and he knew, alive Arthur was a big threat to his goal, while Jaime needed Ned to be alive, he had a numerical superiority and just went with the play. I am sure, that if Ned had the opportunity, he would have restrained from killing Jaime, so the stakes from both sides were much lower.

I think the thing that gets overlooked about ned. (Probably because we dont get his viewpoint early on in his life) is that Ned is a hard man who has seen some shit. Like in his kids eyes hes a very good moral compass, so we the reader see him as inherently good. But ned is a very hard man.

I agree that this was a great change

Holy crap I haven’t read the first book in forever and Ned didn’t get into a fight with Jaime in the book I think the fight was a great improvement

@16:30 it wasnt the exact same situation. after killing Arthur they can save the hostage and leave, while killing Ned could result in war with the north and tyrions execution.

One thing I don’t see many people talk about when talking about honorable ned is that he was only honorable to cover up the dishonor of him hiding Jon snow and not telling anyone he truth about what truly caused the rebellion. It probably eats him up that he can’t tell anyone due to the promise he made so he makes up for it in other ways. Sorry I’m not well with words but I think you get my point lol

Jamie was still but hurt over his mentor getting killed at the tower of joy .. he probably had a lot of sleepless night wondering how the dawn could lose to the winter wolf

I do wonder how things would have went if Tywin did actually try and take the Iron Throne for House Lannister in a double-betrayal type of situation. Imagine a younger Ned and a less experienced Jaime going at it in front of the Iron Throne.

When you hear "time traveling Bran did it" in a theory video.... And have to throw up in your mouth a little

This is show only stuff, but George was an integral part of the show in this era. Maybe this was his chance of publishing this scene both ways. Crannogmen are known to fight with tridents & nets, so Howland Rees may have stabbed Arthur Dayne from afar or thrown a net on him, both of which would have hampered his ability to fight with a sword.

They're like, one or two years apart age wise...

If you are experiencing the story for the first time I think the book version has some extra merits. It adds more hype for when Ned and Jaime might fight in the future. The problem is that never happens. So it's good that the show lets us see them fight--or even let's us see Ned fight at all for that matter. And yeah having them fight is so good for Jaime's character.

Id like to say i love the fact that even though the one thing jaime values most(aside from cersi) being the best warrior, against his worst enemy(fickle, his foil, and his nick name maker) who also imprisoned his brother is taken away from him. he still doesn't kill the henchman who took away his opportunity of lifetime even though he's supposed to be a evilish villain who would normally kill his henchman but doesn't

Jaime said it did bother him when they call him kingslayer.... Tywin: and when they whisper King Slayer behind your back, does it bother you??? Ser Jaime: of course it does

lmfao 0:45 is outrageous!

Did Ned ever say he killed Arthur Dan in single combat? Why did people just assume that should've been pretty obvious he didn't

Clearly the horse is Tykrek Lannister

Jamie just wanted to see if he was actually as good as he thought was (himself)-What better way than to challenge and maybe beat the established Ned. Ned let him think he was good but not for long-Once Ned quit toying w/him and put his game face on it was over for Jamie and Jamie knew it-u could see the look on his face when he realized he had bit off more than he could chew. His man saved his life by stabbing Ned in the leg-or so the man thought because I don't think Ned would have killed him, just taught him a lesson and, to Jamie, that may have been worse than death.

Someone said in the comment section of another video ( I think from the Fandome ? ) that Jaime might be realizing that Ned isn't up to Arthur Dayne's standards , as he's fighting him , and is probably finding out that something isn't adding up about Stark beating Dayne.

How did the deserter make it from beyond the wall to winterfell territory? Did he just go through the main gate then run away? Or go around- which if he did, he would find himself in others land more than starks

I’ve always thought that the kid obviously had news and Ned should have recognized that by his behavior (We all love Ned but dang definitely Sansa’s father 😅) …. Plus- he should have learned from the whole tower of joy that things aren’t always as previously conceived…💕 Sean Bean

A couple things I'd like to add. Your characterization of Ned is good, but I'd extend it to his own challenges with being a KG. One scene in the books in particular, when he asks why they don't defend the queen. Ned's rebuke of his morally correct assessment is similar to the one he received from his KG brothers. I think he doesn't just want to prove he's as capable a swordsman as Arthur Dayne, he also wants this trial by combat to prove his balance of morality vs vows was the right one. By defeating Ned he's not simply proving his skill, he's proving he wasn't guilty of a crime or sin when he killed Aerys. Another interesting parallel is the comparison of Arthur and The Smiling Knight. It's interesting because Ned is being cast in the role of Arthur, underlined by him not smiling or laughing. This is contrasted against what I would assume to be Robert cast as the Smiling Knight. Said one way, he would have wanted to be more like Ned, but ended up being more like Robert. By which I simply mean self indulgent to a degree. Needing to prove he was better and letting it make him insecure. Not that this change in him mattered much in KL with Ned. Excellent take on why he wanted to face Ned. I'd say it was more than just defeating him on a skill level though. He wanted to believe he was right, and defeating Ned would have made him feel like the Seven had blessed his choices as much as his arm.

Ser Jaime didn't scare Ned's horse, he rode away before the fighting even started 3:14

I like that Jaime is so frustrated that Ned makes a judgement of him for being dishonorable, although he thought he was doing the right thing. Then when one of his guys stabs Ned in the back of the leg, thinking he is doing the right thing, Jaime literally punches him in the face for being dishonorable.

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A little long-winded, some points repeated ad nauseum, but overall cool video.

Very solid defense of Jamie. My only thought is would Jamie kill or let Ned live. I think Jamie would let Ned live cause Jamie wants revenge for the King Slayer title Ned had branded him with.

in the books when we’re told what happened at the tower of joy we’re gonna find out arthur dayne had a horse fall on him and break his leg.

I need to rewatch, but im misremembering. I thought Ned had the upper hand in the 1 v 1

im still traumatized by the death of Jory😭

Bro's voice is so monotone, a robot's voice would sound more interesting

Jamie arc in the books are one od the best i have personally i have read me and my friend still dispute who would win in duel BOOK jamie vs MOVIE Arragorn and i say movie not book because he has the ability to heal him seld

At the end of the day Jamie is a sister-banging, attempted child murder... I think Ned's instincts of Jamie were correct.

Ned was in a war, where Jamie attacks ned outside a brothel not comparable situations in terms of honor imo.

6:15 what if… Ned rode north instead of south?

It would have been something to write in his Good Dead’s book. Fockin Jaime Lannister, Wanted a “Clean” kill for his book lolololol My boy choked tbh

JamievNed in their conversations, is the notion of Honor on the general sense..compared to GRRM view of honor. Ned is the rigid, cold general Honor, while Jamie is the GRRM view of honor..doing what is right.

You wanted Ned to take the Nights watch deserter on a long trip to the wall because he said he saw the others, something no one believes exists or ever did? He'd look good turning up at the wall saying this dude saw the others. I also don't think Jamie feels he needs to beat Ned to know he's a better fighter. He believes he's better and based on what we know, that's true. Ned isn't considered in the top ten, so there's no way Jaime felt he needed to prove his battle prowess over Ned.

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

The point you are missing is Ned didn’t really care that Jaimie killed the Mad King. The issue he had was he did it after he knew the King was going to lose the war and it showed no bravery or heroism when and how he did it. He was pissed that he should have done when his father and brother were about to be tortured and murdered. That would have been a brave and noble act. You clearly missed Ned’s point of view.

i mean,jamie not killing ned vs ned killing arthur isnt the same,ned is still hand of the king,and jamie wants his brother back,he has reasons to not kill him,meanwile arthur was a loyal guard to the king who just lost the war that killed neds dad and brother

I find it funny that Ned judged Jaime for stabbing Aerys in the back like he didn't killed Arthur Dayne while Arthur was on his knees ... on his back from the front on their knees to the side killing is killing i think that kinda like Jaime justified his pain Ned's personality is also doing the same as Jaime and branding other types of killing dishonorable and dissing people for their "bad" actions while not confessing or acknowledging his own in a way he has less moral righteousness than Jaime but then again Jaime does his own sister and pushed a kid from a castletop what's funny is that Jaime would probably judge Ned in a worse way if he knew the disgraceful way in wich Ned killed his childhood idol

The reason that in the show Jamie wanted to fight Ned was that he knew that he "defeated" Arthur Dayne who was the greatest swordsman to ever live. Honor and curiosity dictated that he fight and best Ned by his own hand.

They should have 1v1’d on rust

Very good points so far. Ned is a c*nt. I've always seen Jaime as *the hero* in the story in many ways. I mean sure Jon Snow is of course a good candidate for "the hero". I do however love Stannis as well. Of all the kings he's by far the best one for the Realm. Well, except for listening to Melisandre and burning people alive and stuff. Of course. ^^

Because he was fighting the guy who beat Arthur Dayne - the greatest of all time.

Idunwanimtano wuhicando 😂

16:00 totally disagree, entirely different scenarios, arthur dayne would fight with no legs like the knight in monty python

Jamie pretty much abandoned the mad kings children to get slaughtered and his oath included protecting them so what is Jamie's excuse for that?

Kengancore

This video had 666 likes. Fixed it.

wheres the elden ring wizard man

Ned is Jagathi Kahn

Jamie betrayed Arthur

A W is a W Jaime

This doesn’t make jamie more honorable, tow different situations

Good character analysis here. (sans political relativism) 👍🏾

In the books, Ned isn’t anything special with a sword.

It's because Ned killed Arthur Dayne, the man who knighted Jamie. This is why it's a big deal in the show when Ned doesn't kill Arthur Dayne, he loses to Dayne, and it is Howland Reed who stabs Dayne in the back. It shatters the Myth of Ned Stark as a great swordsman. It's also why he doesn't fight in duels and doesn't want people to know what he can do: Because he cannot live up to the reputation of the man who bested Arthur Dayne. He's a fighter, but he's just not at that calibre.

Book Jamie's obviously doesn't give shit about beating dead 101 cuz he was obviously a better swordsman, that was the whole point of him riding away. I don't know if you do your own research or what but i literally never seen somebody get so many things right about book and show and such a short video. I think or at least hope that you just got these things wrong to fit your narrative but wrong is wrong

You know the reality is that Jamie did'nt have to kill the mad king to save the city he could have just stab him through the leg or something else is not like the mad king was this mountain of that the only way to stop him was to stab him from the back so ned was some what justified.

Fighting, including sword fighting, is highly non-transitive. Which makes it even more believable that an idiot like Jaime would think it works like that.

Jamie didn’t kill Ned because it would have literally started a war. Jamie was not honorable around that time at all. I do agree that Ned was hard on him for absolutely no reason, especially knowing that he avenged his family and stopped any further conflict. Jamie literally took all of the heat after the war.

Ned was a fool just like the rest of his family.

Shame they choreographed it so badly though