"Winter is Coming..."

"Stay the fuck away from us you frozen meat bags!" -Tholians, probably.

I would agree. But if I may pose a question. That is, if either the Tholians or Star Fleet thought a particular planetary system or Star system would be needed for future endeavors. Terraforming is a capability of advanced civilizations. Would there possibly be a disagreement, to one or the other obtaining these systems?

So a Tholian, a Breen and a Ferengi walk into a bar ...

@@godpopov The Ferengi leaves with most of their money. :)

"Wave after wave of my own men.."

Stop exploding you cowards!

Zapp: What's your name? Hugh Man: Hugh Man, sir. Zapp: Now that's a name I can trust.

THEY look like dorks!

Champagin

That or he had acquired it on the black market. Thanks Quark.

YES !

He got it directly from the Tholian ambassador. He may have had to share a family recipe, though.

SPIDEE THOLOIAN, SPIDER THOLOIAN RADIOACTIVE SPIDER THOLOIAN 😂

@@veleriphon While it's a nice thought, I'm not sure what human food wouldn't be reduced to ash near a Tholian, and I doubt their diet is anything like humans' either.

You'd think this would apply to the Breen too. But xenophobes gonna xenophobe

I do not think it would be the wisest idea to allow the Tholians, who are not a member of the Federation or even an ally to have an enclave/colony on the planet closest to the Capital of the Federation. Astro-politically it is akin to having a suburb of Warsaw be an enclave to Belarus or a suburb of Seoul be an enclave to N. Korea. It's too much of a security risk. However on some of the Y-class & M-class border worlds on each side, some trading treaties can be made.

@@VVeremoose ; Breen inhabit the same planets types Humans, Andorians, and various other UFP species do.

Tholian silk is a superior product. Some trade does occur.

@@khyron666ok8 Indeed! It would be spun silicon!

For me, them and the Gorn. Maybe throw in the Hydrans and Lyrans while we're about it.

The AI or practical effects of the 60s-90s wouldn't have allowed it, they could be brought back as an antagonist in Discovery or Picard(or better in Strange New Worlds/ Lower Decks), but that doesn't seem to be the direction the newer shows are going.

@@musicalhistory4392 I was thinking the same thing about how Spock described the true appearance of the Kelvans in “By Any Other Name” after mind probing the one lady. He said they were enormous and had many tentacles, each of which their minds could control for a different function. It couldn’t be done in the sixties without looking tacky, but I’d sure love to see someone make a convincing enough artistic interpretation of how they’d really look.

i kno weirdest star trek alien:tos stone people in savage curtain, insect xindi, non corporeal thing that impregnate deanna troi, and of course horta, tribbles, crystalline entity, star jelly, edo.god, caretaker, coffee nebula, the goo on y-planet, rumpelstiltskin aliens. Tell me if i forgot your favourite =)

what about the medusans?

Perhaps the tholians kept the family friendly starships that starfleet regressed on. Why would O'Brien or other crew with family want to go back to no family on starships? Once you know it's possible, there would be riots trying to take away.

Yes, exactly, why could there not be some integration instead of a war? Tholians in DS9 seemed quite willing to trade and travel deep into Federation space. If humanoids would take the planets that are 'temperate' (let's call Andorians to Vulcan planets 'temperate', given how much the Tholians need) and the Tholians will take those hell-worlds. It could actually be beneficial for all. Tholians might be very territorial, but if they just care about those hell-worlds and not those 'temperate worlds', then.. it's fine.

To expand on that, the tholians can mine the demon worlds cheaper than the feds and the feds can mine the temperate planets better and cheaper, have a mutual trade agreement to keep everyone happy. And i have a feeling tholians dislike environmental suits as much as we would. So split it down the middle

That would seem logical. But Tholians are very Territorial.

There are federation races that can inhabit class L worlds like the Sheliak. I would expect they would want to claim those planets first for terraform adjustment. I dont think their needs are as extreme as the Tholians but they are relatively similiar and would probably look at a Class L world the way humans of the next gen era look at Mars type worlds...

@@roberts.1050 Except that Sheliak aren't a Fed species. The Sheliak Corporate was an independent nation which didn't really interact with anyone outside of EXTREMELY over-engineered treaties designed to cover any potential forseeable issues - effectively an entire species of corporate lawyers.

The two races certainly would not be fighting over colony worlds, considering the immensely different habitats. Only the resources of asteroid fields would be of common interest. Systems dominated by 'Hot Jupiters' or close stellar orbiting rocky worlds like Mercury or Venus would be great for Tholians. I could even see a Tholian embassy on Venus.

Tholians might be able to "terraform" planets into biomes their species find habitable. They might assign "inhabitable" planets to servitor or ally species. They might need/want valuable resources or extra territory, regardless of environment. They might annex planets for military advantage (or for a denial strategy), regardless of environment. They might even have alien rationalizations which are incomprehensible to other starfaring species.

Those planets could still be rich in minerals, such as dilithium that both sides need, it's not just about habitation.

@@MrClobbertime True, but that's where trade and leases would come in. Federation, "You have planets, rich in valuable minerals, that are inhospitable to you, and would require major investment to set up mining operations. These planets are habitable to us. Allow us to construct a mining colony and we will provide you with X% of what we produce. If we come across any planets in our systems that are naturally habitable to you and have resources, you are welcome to set up a mining colony of your own provided you give us that same X% of what you produce."

Places to live are quite different and conflicts on that basis would be unlikely. Access to resources for raw materials on the other hand. For instance, asteroid mining. The environment is quite hostile to both, so that's a wash. But the metals and materials is also quite valuable to both. Plus mining the asteroids provides the needed raw materials with zero environmental impact to their respective inhabitable planets.

I would not be surprised if the tholians and some federation members actually shared some star systems. Maybe going as far as having defense agreements.

If the Tholians are actually that pragmatic they might realize how easy it is to 'terraform' those garden worlds into something more useful!

They wanted to isolate the federation and klingons because to them they were the biggest threats. Federation in power and Klingons in their stubbornness that they would always fight. Knowing the Klingons would look for any excuse to go to war. They took advantage of it. They started a war between the Klingons and Federation. When that ended they made their move. Making non aggression packs with species that could tip the power scale back into the federations corner. It wasn't just their power alone it was the Federations power and what they represented that was the threat. If they picked fights with species that didn't care for the Federation but you throw the first punch enemy of my enemy situation. This isn't smart tactical move. I think it speaks more to how they viewed them as weaker species than the combined Federation. They were viewed as easier targets. Otherwise they would have tried to start conflicts with other species like they did with the Federation and Klingons.

@@jasondiend4248 that was Glows point. There'd be no reason for a non-ag pact unless the Tholians had decent power and tech

​@@richjordan6461 My point is they doesn't matter if they had the tech and power to help. It is more they didn't want to fight a war on multiple fronts. When you spread your resources thin even a weaker enemy can beat you. The dominion were at a disadvantage from the start. The only reliable entry point for conflict to the alpha quadrant was the wormhole. It was a literal choke point. The maquis would be a threat to them on that front. The last thing they wanted was any real military no matter big or small to join the fight and back up the federation and klingons.

The Miradorn definitely were not a powerful species. They did not control alot of planets and there tech wouldn't be much better than the federations.

The RPG by Decipher is not what I would classify as old. That came later. The original RPG was by FASA, THAT would be the OLD one.

It's so true. What's amazing is that the Tholians were created in Season 3 of Star Trek, the cheapest season. A good story and wonderful execution prevailed on 'The Tholian Web'.

tbh its best they stay underused makes them more interesting unlike how the borg went where they became a real mystery and threat to something you could kill with plot

@@CristySFM1234 The problem with the Borg is that the writers took too many liberties in how they actually worked. As much as I loath the show ENTERPRISE, they did the Tholians justice. Way better than I thought they would. They didn't resort to their head being a mask worn by a Human, they still thread webs of energy in space and they're very very VERY non-humanoid. I'm reading the Star Trek Fifth Year comic right now and the Tholian character they got on the Enterprise is just previous. It's even wearing the spacesuit Kirk and crew wore in the Tholian Web.

How can a Tholians or Hortas can serve on a regular starfleet vessel is improbable cuz of temperature difference. A starfleet vessel with these species would have to be very hot, too hot 🔥 for humans even in spacesuits, which could melt on weather of such suit! We can make peace, have exchange & trade, and maybe ally with Tholians & Hortas, but we would need new separate starfleet vessels.

@@robertaguilar2124 There are actually books where starships are customized to suit certain species, including the Horta.

Q would take the form of one of those squeaky bugs and reek havoc in their silly Assembly!!

@@funzjag Or he would take their form to screw with the Federation during their war...

@@michaelanuradha-khufu4867 That is definitely a possibility. I could see Q (the one portrayed by John D Lancie) being a bit put off by the insect like appearance of the Tholians and helping the Federation, though.

@@funzjag I don’t know if the insectoid shape would bother Q so much, especially after naming all the other species he has transformed into. He doesn’t even prefer the humanoid shape, it’s just the one that Q recognized as comfortable and non threatening to humans. The only time Q spoke well of the human form was when he almost died to an energy cloud to another Q and when he was buttering up Janeway. I could be wrong, of course. Q could just be lying, which was always common practice.

@@nicholashernandez4611 I thought that I detected a bit of distane when Q threatened to turn his son into various things. I recall that he mentioned some sort of worm. I could be mistaken. This would have occurred on Voyager.

The point is "What if" not put up road blocks. I mean expand that. Perhaps there is some "reason" for it. Perhaps there was a political accident, perhaps there was a time device the Federation took was not willing to give back so they went to war. I mean use your imagination. Not being mean just saying sometimes its up to you the viewer/reader to fill in the gaps.

@@aurorajones8481 I don’t think this is a “what if” scenario, but rather a compounding on established lore as to why this is so unlikely to happen. My point was to add another reason why as I didn’t pick up a big “what if” vibe from Lore in this video. What’s more is I point out what I point out because it’s part of the lore around this race. The Tholians are not warmongers like the Klingons and the aren’t as predatory as the Romulans or Cardassians. If you’re going to give a good “what if” then it helps to understand the people involved, and in this case the people involved would require a lot of provocation to act. That said, if you want reasons the Tholians could attack the Federation it’s not hard to imagine. They are highly defensive and ruthless when pushed. An enemy of the Federation, like the Romulans could start a war with relative ease using misinformation to direct Starfleet ships into conflict with Assembly vessels. They could also commandeer Starfleet vessels to attack and provoke a war. Even repeating what Valdore did in “Enterprise” to an extent to provoke skirmishes could incite something. I think the best thing to inspire a war though would be to attack the Tholian homeworld and stage it to look like a Federation attack. Given a lot of established lore about the Tholians I think this would definitely be the most offensive thing that could be done to get them to take that first shot. The same way that spiders must often be left with no option to feel safe in order to get them to stand and fight.

Wagon Train - WAS the original inspiration for S.T.

@Nines not completely cannon, but enoigh to be useful here

@Nines also lovingly called SPREADSHEETS IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE

Should have been canon because: 1) it came before most everything else, and 2) the game was based on the Star Fleet Technical Manual which was licensed by Paramount.

@@mikearmstrong8483 Yeah, I fully agree with you on your facts, and my knowledge alone. But according to other Trek Snobs. "It's it's own thing, and therefore not even considered Alpha, Bata or even Zebra Cannon to them and their Ilk. Pfft! Jacklegs.

Scorched Earth Policy?

How realistic is it to nudge a planet a million miles closer to a sun or enable more energy from the planetary core to seep into the atmosphere?

Probably Teflon coated so all the blood, pus and bodily fluids are easily wiped off. What with him being a barbaric savage using stones and sticks (per 24th century sensibilities. 😋)

Yes lol

Now I can not watch TOS the same. Ass!!!

Very campy, which fits.

I HAD noticed that, actually. 👍

The Feds would win. The thesis (and title) of this video is dead wrong. You and I are correct. And The Federation is at least as large as Tholian space.

@@Timelord2001 The video title (as elaborated on by the video) isn't that the Feds would lose, just that the fight would end in a truce without ultimate victory. (IE, the Feds would not conquer Tholia). Largely because it simply wouldn't be worth the trouble and the Tholians and Federation would negotiate a truce long before that.

Assuming that Tholian technology did not advance since then, that those ships were their capital class and not say, their version of border patrol corvettes, or if its their main warship, they do not have a lot more of them. All these sound like a lot of assumptions, where even one being wrong would spell a disaster for the federation.

@@Timelord2001 I would say that one of Lore’s weak spots is that he doesn’t recognize the inherent disadvantage of a defensive posture in ST war. The Federation would almost certainly start from a defensive posture which would be bad. SF also has it’s swings toward pacifism, ala the Galaxy class starship, which might also put the Federation in a bad spot. Lastly, the funny thing about war is that you never know how they’ll go.

@@_Muzolf See my other reply, essentially, I agree.

And, they could do that a century EARLIER.....

The Enterprise (NCC 1701) took out at least one of their ships (maybe two?) when they first started to erect the web. Possibly that slowed them down?

There were also a lot more Tholian ships in Enterprise (only 2 in TOS), and the NX-01 was a lot smaller than the Constitution-class.

It might have had something to do with the interspace area that they were in.

Ah, that's a good thought. ;-)

Yeah if anything what we've seen throughout our own universe, the Tholians would have a definite advantage in amount of planets they can exist on compared to the Terrans.

You are correct, it's a disadvantage only for the war, there is no reason. It will be better for both sides to cooperate. Tolians let the federation know about M planets and the federation do the reciprocal. Even if its in the same solar system.

@@jaimeduncan6167 I certainly agree that the fact that both "species" have significantly different ideas about what constitutes "prime real estate" should definitely make peaceful negotiation about expansion feasible. The counterpoint is that Tholians are described to us as extremely territorial, so while they technically could potentially share a star system, building on different planets, the Tholians probably wouldn't be willing to.

Something tells me the Tholians would love Venus, though.

Venus would be where their embassy would be located if the federation and their assembly reached an accord.

I’m not that familiar with the concept of the Tholians existing across dimensions, but had a similar thoughts about their habitat compared to the environments that most Federation species prefer. Given the differences in environmental needs, I don’t see why the Federation and the Tholians couldn’t occupy overlapping territories- the Federation would occupy class M worlds and the Tholians would occupy class Y worlds. They might need similar resources for ships and space habitats, but I don’t get the impression there’s a shortage of either in the Star Trek universe. I suppose their technology might require dilithium (even that might be able to be minded from class Y planets that the Federation wouldn’t want to bother with), but other than that, there shouldn’t be much reason for competition between the 2 parties.

@@NeverDoneEver I like this. Pragmatic. But I doubt that humans would allow cohabitation. Unless the Tholians joined the Federation. And why wouldn't they? Even the Japanese, perhaps the most xenophobic society on Earth, understand the value of allies.

That being the case, it seems like there should actually be little reason for a border at all. Federation member species and Tholians could share the same spatial territory without actually intruding on each other's space at all. But that's a perfect world, where the Tholians aren't rather xenophobic. EDIT: I see someone else posited the very same thing I just did, lol. Anyway... it's probably true the Federation also would be a little reluctant to allow such without the Tholians agreeing to join the Federation. If only because a non-member species so close to multiple homeworlds IS a potential security threat.

Yeah. Tholians in SFB were much more defensive than offensive. Once they establish a base, it's a tough nut to crack. Also, in SFB, didn't they come from another galaxy and managed to use their webs to tow their homeworld with them? Imagine if they could improve that tech and use it to yoink people's planets.

Fascinating. So this Tholian Empire is a large distant thing with the Tholian Assembly a tiny rebel stronghold? Kinda like China and Taiwan?

The mother Horta : Am a joke to you?

Species 8472 will not be pleased

dont let the Xindi-Aquatics read that or they might switch sides ^^

Shout out to the Hydrans from Starfleet Command.

That gas cloud with a grudge against Q.

Don't forget they'll reverse the ionizing polarization of something too

Or you know, in the twenty or thirty minutes it takes the Tholians to build their web they could like, move.

AKA plot armor.

Sounds like an STD plot vehicle.

In case of Dominium, at the begining of the war they had technologycal advantage over Federation. Fed had better warp engines but Dominium wepons and shields. Yes Starfleet could done better but they dont expect any major conflict until Borg incurtion. Even after that they want build one fleet not 20, needed in Dominium war.

Hive minds are a definite problem for the UFP.

@@adrewadrew5860 The Dominion made a non aggression pact with the tholians when they startet to bring troops to the alpha quadrant. At the same time they made this pacts with the romulans and miradorn, also two powerfull and by time agressive species. That means a lot to the tholians power and technology so they are pretty sure good enough in tactics and war.

@@MyBrainGlows or they know that if they left Tolians they dont have to fight untill Federation fall. Look at Breen and what happen when theyir gimmick was counter. Tholians could be similiar.

@Nines Also I would like to point out that both the Tholians , and the Ferengi remain the same in alternate universes I mean in concept. You know what the Terran Empire reminds me of? The Cardassians . In fact I think the Cardassians would have been right on the spot with their lore for exploitation , and subjugation.

SPACE is three dimensional, the Milky Way Galaxy is NOT. Most of the stars align along a disk.

@@davidtucker9498 That disk is 10000 light years thick around Sol, which means still pretty 3 dimensional considering the speeds of ships in ST.

@mandellorian Yes. I do. “Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space” But there is noone coming for them. They would have all the time in the world to build the wall. By the time anyone noticed how immensely huge it was, it would be to late for anyone to do anything about it.

Any relation to the shadows of Babylon 5???

@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain No, tholians are too hot to handle. And also sharp, on behalf of them being made of organic crystals.