“Disabling killer powers is too complicated” The void arena during the Halloween event: Well alright guess I’ll just go screw myself then.

I SAW SCOTT VENT

Former game dev here, offering a lukewarm defense for BHVR. I don't think they're making excuses for why they can't make the requested change. I think this is just a case of players and devs using different language from each other. Seeing how the game is made from behind the curtain changes your perspective and makes you interpret language differently. They are probably correct that there is no such thing as active and passive killer powers in the game's code. What Blighted Serum does is overlap a button input. If Scott said "DS should disable the killer ability button for 10 seconds as well" they'd probably say "oh, that's doable. Maybe it should do that" and consider it. The thing is though, it's on BHVR to put forward the effort to have someone on the team whose job it is to translate fan feedback into actionable suggestions. And they've always seemed to struggle at that.

I agree with Scott basically 100% here even down to the words chosen, they are making it sound wayyy more complicated than it actually is, after getting hit with DS killers are unable to manually use their powers for X amount of seconds. They did it fine during the Halloween event, when a killer went into the Void they couldn't use their powers. The Pinhead chain hunt didn't deactivate when he went in the Void, he just couldn't use possessed chain... and you could still trigger hag traps when she was in the void she just couldn't teleport to them.

where is breathe strip, is he ok? is he safe?

tbh just rework nurse (blight and spirit) to lose all (some) tokens/charges on any stun rather than giving ds an adhoc effect

They did this for the Halloween event right? To disable the killer powers.

If nurse/blight just lost their tokens when stunned, it would both make them weaker in general, (which they could do with,) make pallets not entirely useless against nurse, and also make DS work better on these two killers specifically whom are probably the biggest issues in this discussion. And honestly I just feel like that would just be a good change in general since they've been at the top of the tier list for a long long time. And other, weaker, killers have a similar mechanic happen to them eg, ghostface.

On the whole I agree, it's relatively simple to prevent active inputs into a Killer's power for X seconds after they've been Strike'd. I think the explanation that is missing from the post is that it could lead to a lot of weird edge cases, and also impact future design decisions. Like, if Trapper is striked, will the system prevent him from grabbing someone out of a trap for that duration (is pulling someone out of his trap a part of his power?). Can Clown no longer reload the bottles during that time? That feels a bit weird, it is part of his power but it's a not an action that threatens a survivor (same with Deathslinger). It'll also impact future design decisions because they'll have to factor in what the input disable does to each killer they design. It probably won't be a lot of time, but it will be something they have to consider along with everything else that goes into a killer.

From a mechanical standpoint I get that it should be easy to prevent M2 powers because it already exists, but what about the CTRL function? For a lot of killers like Singularity, Hag, Dredge, Alien, or Unknown, a big part of their kit uses these to get around the map for possibly quicker catchup. Then from a user experience standpoint, there's the case where you get offensively DS'd accidentally after a 40s chase with someone else, your power gets disabled and even if you'd rather spread pressure you can't. So I can see how bhvr might not be super confident taking that option

Don't even need the fancy add-on, every time you put a survivor on your shoulder you literally enter a universal killer state where you can only attack and move. And it's even shown in the UI that you lose your power during that time.

People are always going to tunnel and most of the time its just an "Oh well ggs" and move on. But I've had about 6 friends get into dbd in the last few months and its incredibly frustrating trying to get my friends into the game when they're tunneled out of matches within the first 5 minutes because of their inexperience.

Alternatively, make it so Nurse and Blight lose tokens when stunned by any means

The problem is in this game no matter what you do it “unfairly” hurts someone. If you do the take away the power thing after a decisive it hurts 110% killers disproportionately.

Didn't they also disable Killer powers in the void during that one event?

I have a solution to the tunnel strategy that I would like to know your thoughts about. Gens work slower when all 4 survivors are alive, but when one is killed, the rest “enter survival mode” and can do gens 20% faster for the rest of the game. This also applies to the next person killed. I think this would improve the situation where there’s 2 gens left and only 2 survivors and they are hiding around the map. It would also shake up competitive dbd because right now each match is who can camp fastest to achieve the win. (Also in comp, anti camp is disabled which is crazy to me)

Idk, I get what they're saying. I just don't think BHVR considers tunneling to be an issue. (and imo it isn't) I mean, it'll never be a possibility for DS to be balanced against top tier killers where it doesn't hurt like 80% of the killers. Imagine being a Ghostface and eating a stun and also not having your power. It would suck absolute ass. I don't know, man, tunneling isn't even such a big deal, people villainize it to such a high degree but it's just a strategy to win or at least gain some pressure on the survivors. It's no different from slugging or from survivors taking the hit / body blocking to ensure everyone escapes and many other strategies on both sides.

I'm glad that nobody is falling for its to complicated

what if someone tries to take a hit for the unhooked surv and the killer is chasing both players? is the power disabled even if the killer wants to target the unhooker? the blighted serum can be activated by the player. the game does not have to differentiate whether the killer is tunnelling or not.

I believe the coding is as complicated as they say, especially with dbd’s broken spaghetti code. I think if they wanted to implement a power disable on the stun, the best way to do so would be killer specific nerfs (ie. when Nurse is stunned, including by a pallet, her power goes on cooldown).

I actually listed every power in that thread and there are only ~5 exceptions where it might mess up things, but that was only if I expanded this to a basekit feature on hitting anti-tunnel Endurance as well. Legion/Huntress/Chucky for spacebars (Feral Vault, Reload, Scamper), and Victor and Oni power modes. Victor might only be able to search lockers (or it might be disabled) and you can't swap back. Oni might be stuck in Demon form and may or may not be able to attack, depending on if they disable the input or 'special attack'. I recommended only disabling the input, so he would still be able to tap, charge, but not dash. There were none that would matter for DS other than lingering effects. (Clown gas, Trapper traps, Knight guards and SM drones for example.)

Listen I know coding is complicated and temperamental but like if DS ignore [killer ability button input] ?

One small comment: it isn't "negative reinforcement", it's "punishment". Negative Reinforcement is when you remove a stimulus from the environment and that removal increases a particular behavior. Punishment deals with reducing behavior. Positive and Negative just refer to if you're adding or removing the stimulus.

I wonder how good it would be if it was 3-4s plus .5s per gen left to complete?

They had the blighted add-on that replaces the killer's power years ago. How is disabling the power different? If anything they can replace it with nothing for X amount of time like the blighted serum.

Behavior could have it coded so that perks can only affect base stats, whereas addons are specifically coded to augment powers. If that’s the case it would be far easier to make an add on entirely replace a killers power than have a survivor perk augment it, as perks might not even have any pipeline to do that

7:55 I love getting my parenting advice from the Scott Jund.

the Void realm in the Halloween event also disabled all killer powers. So why would it be a problem now?

Scott I am curious to hear your thoughts on how disabling killer powers on decisive strike would work for 110 speed killers, as they would be punished far more than any 115 killer.

Why in the world would you disable killer powers? That's one of the dumbest ideas I've heard suggested in this game. Also, it's super overcomplicated. Just leave it as a stun.

When it comes to undesired strategy, you need a mix of reinforcement and punishment. For this example, once you implement some punishment for tunneling, then you can implement reinforcement / reward for other strategies

As Peanits said it’s much more complicated when it’s tied to a Perk. Not only that but a survivor perk crossing the gap and affecting a killer power. Much more difficult than the Halloween event where the power was just disabled.

Well I think what the dev was trying to tell us is that, if we stop a nurse blink power for 8 seconds, should another killers power be stopped for 8 seconds as well even though those powers are not equal in strength and/or mobility. Some killers 1 shot, some killers blink, and then you have useless killers like Legion. Then as mentioned that limits future type of killers because they’d have to consider what about if there power was disabled for 8 seconds. From a game design philosophy this idea isn’t really good. ALL killer powers are not the same or equal so they wouldn’t disable ALL killer powers for 8 seconds. This not only makes more work for them but limits creativity and such. The only solution is to give DS a buff for a harsher penalty.

I'd be curious to see their outlook on the "gens remaining = how long the stun is" idea because I feel like that would be an almost perfect alternative to this. It's just a shame it might not see the light of day because they've already committed to the 5 second stun. Someone please ask about this in a future AMA

Dont certain powers get disabled or altered near hooked survivors as well? How's that not similar?

If they put killer disabling in ds im sure they will think about more perks with that effect, like a boon totem or an invocation or some shit.

Could they just move the incapacitated effect to killer to disable their power? I feel like that will be better or work even more simple.

hello Scott jund

Imagine if it actually activated twice like off the record, that could hard punish tunneling

I'll be honest, I'm happy that they're not going through with the power disabling things, solely because I feel that being added would lead to precedent for BHVR to either change or make more perks to temporarily disable killer powers which would be the least fun thing ever. I know this is kinda stupid but idk BHVR is the type of company where once they implement the functionality for something, they really want to make the most out of it they can, and they tend to make some really dumb perks once in a while.

Yeah, super difficult to put the killers power on cooldown for a few seconds. Practically impossible.

Literally in the blue event (the portal one) the killers power was disabled upon entering the portal, it can be done and it is not that complicated

It’s literally the matter of making a simple button mapping that excludes the power button and force switch the mappings at the start and end of decisive. It’s no different than player buttons changing based on what the player has equipped in other games.

When will PTB start?

The funny thing arguably is that the coding for disabling already existed in the fact that well plague exists and if she gets pallet stunned her power is instantly gone. or maybe the old nurse burn you would stun her and she lost her tokens.

Why not disable m2 altogether?

What mic you use Scott? Some Shur?

to disable it, couldnt they just disable every keybind except movement, camera, and pallet/gen kick for a few seconds?

im pretty sure at some point waaaaay back they said they wouldnt do anything to completely remove tunnelling but idk if they even said that so yeeeee 🤷

The power disabling version seems like their best bet. As u said it doesnt impede on killers who cant do the crazy chase stuff and makes it ao the ones who can, lose out on being able to insta catch up. Honestly seems like there isnt many issues with an implentation like this

You can't vault windows when falling from heights I can't see why they can't just disable M2 button for a couple of seconds

I'd like to point out about Trapper that, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you immune to traps for a brief moment after getting off of the Killer's shoulder as it is? Also, most Killers can't M2 when blinded. So... that'd be pretty easy to apply to DS.

I wonder if they have a perk in the works that stuns the killers power and this is their way of saying that.

Hey Scott, just want to say you look healthy. Hope all those surgeries are improving your quality of life and such.

hey not correlated to the video at all but i just went against a backpack slinger that i believe has developed a way to communicate with the backpacked survivor, by turning 360 degrees continuously and having the backpacked survivor grunt when facing the desired direction(most likely towards teammates) , not sure if this is a common knowledge backpacking technique so i figured id share as its the first time I've seen a backpacker do this, and it has potential to refine the backpack playstyle. lol

I don't know how in depth this could be, but what about the killer getting a certain debuff after hooking a survivor consecutively. Like a hindered status effect or something minor to give the tunneled survivor a chance.

I don't see why the power button can't just be disabled for the duration of the stun I'm a coder. I've linked keyboard/mouse controls to my functions and classes. And I can't think of a single killer where disabling right click for 5 seconds would be a problem.

The only reason the ds deactivating killer power won't work is if they coded the blight serum effect to work only in that limited and unique event where you have the add on. Which is bad practice on their part since your goal should be to make a feature as reusable as possible. However the entire add on system is part of that old system build in the early days of the game and the devs admitted that thoes system are poorly implemented. That also applies to the peark system. So in a worse case scenario they would need to overhull multiple systems they have in order to make this change. Now i would like to think that they were not complete beginners when made this early systems but it could be if the devs never expected the game to grow and live for as much as it did.

What about if the survivors have 12 total hookstages. 2 individual stage per survivor (instead of 3) and 4 Team stages or whatever you wanna call them. So the first 4 hooks always remove the "Team stages". So if you wanna Hardcore Tunnel you need 6 hooks on the first survivor. But it would also not open the scenario that one leon uses all 9 hookstages and the Rest of the Team dies on their first hook.

Couldn't you just like, disable what the right click/control button (by default) does.

I find it wild how BHVR is finally being open in their communication with the community, something we’ve asked for for years. Yet when they actually communicate with us, everyone jumps to say “I don’t believe them,” or “they’re lying to avoid it.” I think their explanation is fair and understandable. I’m not a game designer, so I’m not gonna sit here and critique their response when they are the experts actively working the code and designing elements of the game.

i can already imagine how infuriating it'd be if your power was disabled and during those few seconds you lose a gen because you couldn't teleport to it as a killer with teleportation, or miss out on getting use from an aura-reading perk as huntress. Removing the ability for someone to use their power, even for a short period of time, is just bad game design.

I just want agressive use of DS adressed man, that's all I want

"Each power would need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine what should happen when they're disabled" So exactly what already happens when you stun a killer with a pallet? Certain killers lose their power (GhostFace, Legion), some lose parts of their power (Plague loses corrupt purge but not fountains) and some don't lose their power at all (nurse, trapper). So it *is* an option lol.

I dont think disabling their power would be enough when they'll just counter something like that by running pwyf and any other perk that will give haste to makeup for a disabled power cooldown. My proposal of a idea is that if a killer hits a survivor that has been unhooked for x amount of time is given a movement speed debuff similar to chemical trap for x amount of time. Maybe not as severe as chemical trap debuff is but no more than a 50% movement speed debuff

The argument of "well there are still passive powers so it won't work" is so weird, because the difference between freddy and passive chain hunt cenobite is still way way less than between freddy and nurse

Blighted serum is an active power unto itself that temporarily overrides normal powers. Void realm is a secondary game state with special rules that also override normal power usage. While they demonstrate that turning powers off can be done it usually is by the player's active choice. Doing the same with an opposing perk is a much more nuanced coding task.

I think it could be interesting to add an exhausted-type debuff for killers, preventing them from using their powers. I know if we give survivors too much power they'll just start using them offensively, but it would be interesting to try.

Idk disabling killer powers would feel really bad, especially with base bt being sued offensively

if they cant use power when they are stunned, why would they not be able to just consider the killer stunned for an extra 3-4 seconds, while also being able to move?

Knowing BVHR, if I get ds'd and they want to disable my killers power for 8 seconds it probably wont work until A) the match is over B) I restart the game or C) I go buy some auric cells in the shop or so lol

Thats because it isnt fun. Sure blight and nurse take the nerf, but what about other kilkers? Some of my most miserable in game moments come from being d striked from a survivor i just hooked deciding to bodyblock me or t bag in the doorway i need to get through, doubly worse if I have one of the tens of perks you need to hook someone for in order for it to activate.

It’s difficult if your code breaks like a twig after every update. I bet the line of coding needed is just something along the lines of When DS used=Killer stunned for 4 seconds. When stun end=Killers power go on cool down for 8 seconds When stub end=Unable to teleport for 8 seconds That just translated to coding language which is just more detailed and specific than what I wrote

Yeah thats a cop out excuse. In regards to negative reinforcement, what do you think about the idea of disabling perks like Pain Resonance, Grim Embrace, etc. once a survivor is killed? These perks are powerful and supposed to discourage tunneling, and having them stop working if one survivor is tunneled out keeps them as strong as they were and actually encourages the killer to seek other targets out.

What if made a game mode where it took 3 hits to go down but once you get hooked, you are gone

BH: Mami programar una mecánica que ya existe en el juego me da ansiedad..

In my opinion the easiest and most optimal solution for dissuading tunneling one survivor out would be for remaining survivors to gain small boosts based on how dire the situation is i.e.: 4 survivors left = base move speed + base objective work speed 3 survivors left = +1.5% haste AND/OR +1.5% work speed 2 survivors left = +1.5% haste AND/OR +1.5% work speed (kept the same to lessen overall unnecessary impact) 1 survivor left = +2% haste AND/OR +2% work speed The survivors remaining would get a small but slightly noticeable "clutch factor" boost that would: #1 decrease people dc'ing from games when games are in harder scenarios #2 incentivize overall map pressure and decentivize tunneling entirely #3 if an experienced killer matches against newer survivors, lessen the gap between how dominant and 1-sided the game would be To make it more complicated but to improve the initial idea, finding a boost value for "3 survivors 5 gens" VS "3 survivors 2 gens" etc would be optimal. Boosts could become more/less effective based on generators left on the map, so if you had 2 survivors left with 2 gens left, you would not get the full boost, to keep killers able to still finish out games that they should win. The closer the killer gets to dominating, survivors will get slightly stronger, but when the lead diminishes, boosts would dissipate.

I'm sure they could code something and build something to block a killers power from activating, but I don't think they could upkeep every patch with everything else that breaks . I think if they did that, the liklihood of a different killer needing to be killswitched every patch goes up Sure they've done it with Blighted Serum and Haunted By Daylight, but that's one month of something can go wrong, then it goes away. That's not something they need to actively upkeep

“It’s hard” is such a BHVR excuse, genuinely the only big thing that makes me lose some respect for them is when this excuse comes up for something that would massively benefit the game

I think the issue is the dev response was worded somewhat poorly. If I had to guess disabling killer powers (in terms of code) would require sweeping changes and a massive amount of time and resources to implement what would essentially be a new status effect for 1 perk. A potentially better solution (as mentioned throughout this comment section) would be targeted nerfs to movement power based killers. From what I've read and seen it looks like they aren't being punished for stuns. So they could (in theory) change what the stun status does to those killers. Something like if they get ds'd their power gets put on complete cooldown/lose all their tokens. Getting pallet stunned would remove like lets say half of their power/tokens. There would be edge cases like Oni, which would be more complex based on how his power works, but I think this would be a potentially "easier to implement" solution.

heres a better idea how about they buff it to 7 seconds but disable the perk if they take a protection hit (I.E taking hit off hook from built in borrowed time)

I was hopeful that they would buff the duration of DS, bring it to 80s to make it in line with off the record, considering it can only be used once in a match whereas OTR can be used twice and its longer.

tbf theyve said in the past that tunneling, camping, and slugging are valid play styles. as far as i know, that hasnt changed; theyve added things like base kit BT and anti-camp, but at best they are meant to deter, not get rid of those ways of playing. theyve also tried to shy away from perks affecting killer powers, which is why adrenaline no longer wakes you up vs freddy (as of the PTB). their reasoning here is garbage, but the action of not having DS affect killer powers is in line with what theyve done before.

I always only ever hear “Peanis”💀

“Bhvr level” Those words scare me

DS is fine right now, I usually see at least one in every match, and nightlight stats confirm this. Survivors have enough options for countering tunneling right now. 90 second off the record, base kit bt, exhaustion perks to get away, for the people + buckle up, background player + flashbang, or just going for a bodyblock. At what point does it just become a skill issue on the survivor's part? Buffing DS will just move the game towards a less interactive meta again, where survivors stack second chances with little to no counterplay and just delay the game that way instead of actually doing well in chase. People want the game to practically play itself from start to finish, it's ridiculous.

Haunted By Daylight also disabled the killers power in the void.

I feel like there’s a couple ways to solve tunneling. First, make something like decisive strike basekit. Maybe the three second stun is the basekit stun now. Second, when killers hook a survivor, have a survivor who has not yet been hooked scream and reveal their location (basekit). As killer I’ve noticed that often times it’s hard not to tunnel because everyone else is hiding. Make it so that killers get some info on where survivors they haven’t hooked are without needing to waste a perk slot. Finally, remove nurse.

I wouldn't object to a "nuclear option" for DS. Remove the timer and let it work multiple times in a row. It's only disabled when another survivor is hooked, after a conspicuous action or after missing the skill-check. This is obviously a severe change, but as someone who actively tries not to tunnel I'd feel great knowing that survivors wasted a perk slot.

Current borrowed time should be base kit and the current perk can get a total rework I think 20 seconds of endurance off the hook would solve a lot of it

"doing things is hard :(" -smol bean multimillion dollar company

Very valid and well put response.

Basekit 45 second Ds unless exit gates opened. But ds is only 4 seconds

They should give survivor a basekit endurance-like effect after the killer is stunned and drops the survivor where it prevents them from going down to special attacks for a few seconds.

I think what Behaviour should do, is add new FREE survivor perks that can help against tunneling. Ever since the Demogorgon chapter came back, we lost a bunch of free perks, and they never replaced them, so I think giving us new ones in return would be really nice. Giving us new, free, easy to access tools that help against tunneling would be really nice imo, and people wouldn't have to buy a whole survivor/chapter just to get Decisive Strike.

Weren't there bugs over the years in dbd that literally prevented killer from using their power like Billy Bubba huntress or something

why not have it so when the person gets unhooked, the closer the killer is to said person, the longer the decisive strike action expiry time will give the survivor? The further away a killer it, then its the usual timer. I do agree with it becoming too over complicated when it's more so a game design issue which should really be sorted through the foundations of the game, hell even give the survivor another hook state if they're hooked again too quickly. Have that as an addon, don't forget DS is a licensed perk which needs to be purchased. It's essentially buying a game fix with a perk which does not sit well with me.

The devs lowkey just don’t care, it seems to be that way every time their is a problem like this

I saw thousands of people defend the BHVRs take and i was about to lose my mind. Its really like you said, they are making it sound overcomplicated when it is really not. Dbd has many inconsistencies anyways, why not make a great balance chance at the expense of one more?

Any software developer worth their salt will tell you that disabling killer power should not complicated in the slightest to code, but we've had small insights into behaviour's code quality before (such as when match making wasn't working for hillbilly because they were comparing literal strings with his name and somebody had spelt it wrong) so I'm not surprised they're claiming this would be too difficult