Girl Gone with the Wind You good because No Ma'am. I just can't and won't. It got backlash but it still got the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award. I was reading Habibi a couple of years ago And I rushed through it but hated the depiction of women and of Islam. I didn't like it and I said so when I reviewed it. I I feel as if you should read what you can take. If you can't take it then stop. I don't feel as if you have to go through all of that when there are largely better books out there about slavery. Funny I saw a review where someone was affirming that it was historically accurate. I guess you could say accurate in the sense that slave owners didn't feel like black people were people. The example you gave sounds to be a clear and cut case of Mitchell not being able to hide her true feelings. Thanks for this discussion! I really enjoyed it. It's a tough one.
@koreighlee8 жыл бұрын
I think it's important to be unapologetic about removing oneself from harmful or reprehensible narratives. There are so many examples of this that I experience in my own life, and a lot of the time I find myself in these situations where I'm looking around (either literally or metaphorically) to these people around me, as if to see if this isnt also troubling to them. I say that there is no need to expose yourself to--let alone align your tastes in literature with--ideas that are so contrary to the work that you do as an individual. (To better your understanding of the world, race relations, etc.) To be complacent with such passive racism, whether or not it is acclaimed, is to undermine ones own efforts to be more than someone who relies on herd mentality and antiquated caricatures of real people (as opposed to critical thought and analysis).
@Dark_Gillybean8 жыл бұрын
I felt the same way about the depiction of black people in Fried Green Tomatoes. In a live discussion I had with other book club members a couple of years ago I brought this up, how it pissed me off, and I remember the response was just like you mentioned, "Oh, it's the time period." I felt like my concerns over that were dismissed. It is incredibly frustrating. To answer your question, I found Fried Green Tomatoes offensive but didn't put it down simply because I knew we were going to have the live show and wanted to have read it all the way through so that we I could discuss it in full. Usually, if I find a piece offensive in any way it won't be something I love.
@ladyluck18738 жыл бұрын
I'm late to the conversation, just found your channel. I think the question for me is what is considered a classic and why. It's a classic but for who exactly, who gets to decide that. I wouldn't discourage anyone from reading the book but in personally not going to. There are so many great reads, I just wouldn't put myself through that.
@ladybookdragon76098 жыл бұрын
I like how you articulated that your issue is when the isms come from author rather than the characters; often find myself making the same distinction. However, sometimes it is hard because characters are often an extension of the author's beliefs. I have found it really useful to read books (written in other time periods in particular) to better understand how people like the author think/thought and felt about a topic. In particular, the way history articulates imperialism and wars changes dramatically whether it is an account reflecting on the older time period or something written during the event. Accounts of the civil and revolutionary wars have changed a lot even in just the last 25 years. To this end, I feel like Gone with the Wind is a portrayal of how some white people thought about the civil war. From it I learned more about how some whites thought they were being benevolent to their slaves and in particular how they really felt that their slaves should want to stay with them. While I think a modern writer could discuss these topics with more finesse, reading the way that an author thought about them in their own time period can provide insight into how our history (and how we tell our history) has changed over time. That said, of course their are certain problematic portrayals that are harder for me personally to read. Or that are hard to read at a certain time. I am not sure I could read Gone with the Wind right now. In general, I think part of the answer for me is to separate my enjoyment of reading a book from what I like and dislike about the writing, story, and characters (not always possible). I know a lot of people see them as throw away but I really like publishing groups that add intros to older works to give both some history and some context. I when I read Gone with the Wind a friend of my mom's gave me an essay that discussed the history of mistralization of African Americans and the backlash to the book and the author's response. For me the most rewarding thing about reading is learning how to see the world from other points of view especially those I completely disagree with. It is really hard to think about perspectives that are completely anathema to your own world view if you are never exposed to them. I think there still might be a lot of white people who don't understand what a mistral depiction of a slave looks like or how problematic the chosen one or the good ones mentality can be maybe by reading something like Gone with the Wind and having some context there might be better understanding. (I am also terrified that reading books with these kind of portrayals normalizes problematic beliefs and behaviors which I guess is why we have to try to read critically)
@leahrhead5958 жыл бұрын
This video was fantastic. I have been having these similar thoughts while reading Huckleberry Finn. The thoughts are similar to those I had while reading Me Before You by JoJo Moyes, a story whose depiction of disability is extremely problematic. My approach is usually to finish the book, because I feel the best way to combat a problematic piece is to criticize it in an informed way which only comes, typically, from finishing the piece in its entirety. However, I also acknowledge that part of why it has been so easy for me to finish Huck Finn and MBY in particular is because, like you mentioned, I do not belong to either of the groups being misrepresented (although I do believe that Huck Finn is a story about a boy navigating a complicated world of racism, religion, and other societal flaws, and therefore has more merit than a story like MBY in which none of the characters or readers learn are forced to navigate or learn about anything being discussed in the story). Great video!
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Leah Rhead Me Before You is one of those books where Booktube steered me all wrong! I saw all these rave reviews for the book and I ended up buying it from a library sale and then I saw the previews for the movie and I thought that looks really bad. Only after the movie did I start seeing reviews that talked about how problematic its depiction of disability is. I felt wronged. Lol. Still haven't read it. I'm not sure I will. I agree with you about Huck Finn. From what I've heard Twain does seem to attempt to criticize and shine a light on the racist system even if he does have a bit of a white savior complex. The same definitely can't be said about Gone With the Wind.
@vaporreads50958 жыл бұрын
A book can be a painting of the time or setting it was written in as well as the writer's mindset, and while it may be great and not impervious to critique, it may still hold good technical qualities (prose, plot, structure etc)Whenever I come across something like that, I take time to analyse it and try to distinguish if it's done out of bigotry, ignorance, or actual artistic and literary purposes, and to add to the cognitive dissonance, I cant just arrive to a conclusion of a text not being offensive without taking into consideration those who are being offended. I don't think it's as easy as black and white when it comes to a morality scale, literature rides a very wide grey area, especially older works. Sometimes it is clear that an author is prejudiced or ignorant and it reflects on the writing, and these aggression if done on purpose, should not just be brushed over, it's important to take time to acknowledge them, but other times an author might write something offensive because they are trying to portray a real moment, meaning they want to show racism, they want to show rape, they want to show genocide. these are things that exist and artists shouldn't shy away from them. This of course brings up that other issue of whether a writer is speaking from a knowledgeable place, and how far should a writer go when trying to portray these things, and whether they do it tastefully. As for Gone With The Wind you aren't the only person that it's taken a toll on, I've heard many people say they can't finish it, great film, but quite honestly I'm not very interested in reading it. Sorry for the wall of text, but this is something I often think about as well and haven't had the chance to discuss.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+VaporReads I love long walls of text so don't apologize. I think me and you are pretty much on the same page. I have no issues with an author who is basically trying to accurately depict the viewpoints of the time period or the prejudices of a community they belong to. Some of my favorite authors do that, but it feels wrong when those viewpoints are presented not as viewpoints to be critiqued or examined further but as truths, if that makes sense. Like when a writer says horrible things without the knowledge or belief that they are horrible, Speaking from ignorance as you mentioned. I think they're just an uncomfortable reminder of the type prejudices that exist and the discomfort is heightened when people don't want to address it or acknowledge that it's there.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+VaporReads I love long walls of text so don't apologize. I think me and you are pretty much on the same page. I have no issues with an author who is basically trying to accurately depict the viewpoints of the time period or the prejudices of a community they belong to. Some of my favorite authors do that, but it feels wrong when those viewpoints are presented not as viewpoints to be critiqued or examined further but as truths, if that makes sense. Like when a writer says horrible things without the knowledge or belief that they are horrible, Speaking from ignorance as you mentioned. I think they're just an uncomfortable reminder of the type prejudices that exist and the discomfort is heightened when people don't want to address it or acknowledge that it's there.
@KMO3256 жыл бұрын
Interestingly, I never really bad this problem with William Faulkner (despite him being problematic in his ways), but this definitely came into effect with Flannery O'Connor. I was in the middle of reading her first short story collection and made the mistake of also reading her published book of correspondence letters called The Habit of Being. I almost quite my reading of her entirely, but persevered. It wasn't just her racism, but her general nastiness and prejudice to almost everyone that made me reconsider her. I'm not sure I will go back to reading her.
@LocPressedBooks_8 жыл бұрын
My goodness, Sis. I have never read GWTW, but I have seen the movie, and I've heard many people talk of their love for it, but I know due to the time period that is based on and who the main characters that are in it, it wouldn't be a good book for me to read without feeling some kind of way. but I also understand that "good/great" books are supposed to inspire feelings in the reader be it good or bad. What grinds my gears is that they are so quick to label these books as "classics" and on turn if you haven't read them you could be considered not "well read". I enjoy the thrill of a Stephen King book, but the frequency of certain racial slurs sometimes hurts the whole process, and I have been one of those people who just skips over it, and then I feel guilty for doing it, for letting it slide and not taking a stand. like slave narratives for example, I am so utterly exhausted with the amount of slave narratives and movies that have been shown in the last couple of years. that I have put a personal boycott on them. Has that limited me to only reading certain things? maybe. but I can't keep swallowing the pill of "our whole ancestry is slavery" There are books that I love, that yes have their problems, but I think again, and ask myself questions about it and the terms or situations that were seen and I ask myself, "could the author have done this differently? and if they did would it have had the same affect?" Honestly, if something you are reading is really rubbing you raw , don't finish it, there are so many other things that you can be reading.
@LocPressedBooks_8 жыл бұрын
love this discussion by the way.
@mikkareads8 жыл бұрын
"Gone with the wind" was the first book that popped into my mind! I read it as a young teen and I don't think I was really aware back then how many -isms it contained - I was focused on the romance and the suspense. But when I read it again as an adult, I was appalled and repulsed, and I simply couldn't say: "Oh, that's just how it was back then!" and like the book regardless - I HATED it.
@alicepow5938 жыл бұрын
I have so many things to say. This is a great video. I think this brings up the concept of framing. How we approach and contextualize the story is important. Personally, I consider it sort of a lesson in ‘knowing thine enemy.’ My dad once told me he sees novels as a look into the way the author sees the world. Reading problematic works gives us a look into the world as seen by problematic people and that can be a helpful perspective. And I think taking into account the time period should not be grounds to ignore what’s offensive about a piece of media. I think reckoning with these perspectives and thinking about how the time period may have fed into that perspective can enrich that experience and understanding. By maintaining that critical look we can get even more from the piece than it was originally worth. It can be a sort of reclamation, too. We can turn it into satire (sort of) by choosing to see it as ridiculous, or misinformed, and choosing to expand our understanding of a warped perspective. I cannot think of a book or anything that I’ve put down. On the other hand, I remember on a 5hr bus ride once I went back and rewatched the movie Robots(2005). It was a fun film, as I remembered, but it also contained the “man in a dress” gag(alternatively spelled “Transmisogyny”). That part of the movie was really distressing to me and muddied the whole experience. I finished the movie because it made the bus ride faster, but it wasn’t a super enjoyable experience because even the parts I liked felt tainted, but that’s almost unavoidable. There’s so much oppressive ideology baked into everything. One of my favorite books is called Invisible Monsters by Chuck Palahniuk. It’s a book with several trans women in it, but it’s not always great about how they’re represented. My biggest issue is the way it hyper-focuses on their ‘masculine’ features. But the book also has the trans women be characters, so it’s sort of a mixed experience. And there’s definitely truth that it’s easier to keep reading something when its problematic aspects aren’t directed at you. One of my favorite books, Lost at Sea by Bryan Lee O’Malley, uses the R-word once or twice, and it’s easier for me to continue through the book than people who that slur is directed at. I try to frame it in my head as making sense for the characters because they’re all sort of immature, but I still know it’s not cool that the word is in there and is never held up to critique. As a writer, when I read things that are sexist or homophobic or transphobic, I like to think of it as an act of reclaiming. I’m looking at a piece and trying to learn more writing craft all the time with the end goal of taking what I learn and creating awesome trans-woman-positive work. I guess, at the end of the day, there’s no easy way to interact with problematic works. And the question gets at the larger idea: how do we interact with problematic culture? Because that’s what literature is, it’s a part of culture. How do we interact with oppressive systems in productive ways? (550 words later...sorry for the essay, but you really set my train of thought rolling)
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Alice Pow I think the best way to deal with problematic culture and thus problematic literature is to talk about it and call it out when we see it. I have loved ones with extremely problematic views. This doesn't stop me from loving them but my loving them shouldn't stop me from calling them out on their BS. Same thing with literature. You can like something but you shouldn't ignore its problems in order to continue liking it. And just like I can choose not to tolerate a loved one with problematic views, I can make the same decision for a book. I loved Invisible Monsters the first time I read it and I've been meaning to re-read it for years. I've been curious how I would feel about it now since I first read it when I didn't quite have an understanding of what it meant to be a trans-woman. It's definitely easier to ignore things when it doesn't affect you which is why it's important to have diverse voices in your circle. When I read Boy, Snow, Bird I didn't quite get the backlash it received for its portrayal of a trans character until people who were non-binary pointed it out to me. I still love the book but I am now aware of how problematic the ending is and I refuse to talk about the book without addressing it. It's easy for us to think that oppressive language and ideals aren't a big deal when we haven't had to live under the weight of them our entire lives. That's why it's important to listen to other's voices.
@alicepow5938 жыл бұрын
I absolutely agree.
@alicepow5938 жыл бұрын
scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13895316_1372552072773997_4909792435387790104_n.jpg?oh=23797c976d0606b9ce3d35076527e00f&oe=584DCEA1 I just saw this image on Facebook and it seems relevant to this conversation as well.
@iLiviesimone8 жыл бұрын
GREAT discussion and video, I am glad I just stumbled upon your channel. The absolute first thing that came to mind with this topic was the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. We all know this commonly required high school reading, and I couldn't help but be reminded about the heated debate in America on whether or not the N word should still be used. Mark Twain refers to the slaves as the N word throughout the entire novel and if I remember correctly, there was a motion to revise the book to replace that N word for 'slave'. In this type of context, I actually side with keeping the N word. And that may seem blatantly offensive in itself, but the way I see it, in order for us to be able to move on and improve upon the issues in our society we have to be able to see the problems of our past. And this novel's use of the word is like an instant reminder to all those reading it that, oh wow this is how things were. The older texts in literature, specifically American literature, to me are important pieces of our history. I just think it is important we realize when something is a BAD piece of history. So for Huck Finn, I appreciate that novel because I grasp a better understanding of society in America in the 1800s (I think that is when it took place but I may be wrong), yet I am also able to recognize and analyze how wrong the use of the word is. This convo can go on forever and ever because there is a lot to it, but I just really felt like discussing that N word debate because I really do think that can be included in the 'Reading Problematic Literature' discussion. It is definitely a struggle trying to read a book with any racism or prejudice and separate judgement on the quality of writing and judging the presence of racism- putting them together then trying to give a rating is very hard.
@walkinthewoods9818 жыл бұрын
Omgoodness. I read Huckleberry Finn in college and I couldn't believe how the teacher and my classmates were saying how Jim had low morals because he was trying to run away after all Huck had done for him. I tried to make them see the difference between a runaway slave and a runaway white boy but they gave me the typical brush off. I was quiet most of that class and gobsmacked at what I was hearing.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Walkinthe Woods OMG. I probably would have lost it. It is insane how freaking clueless people are. In John Keene's Counternarratives he has a short story were Jim sees Huck for the first time since the events of the book and it was amazing. I actually haven't read Huck Finn yet. Do you recommend it?
@walkinthewoods9818 жыл бұрын
I don't remember it being a great read, however, it's been almost 15 years. I did enjoy Puddn head Wilson by Mark Twain. This is not a spoiler. A mix-raced slave and the white mistress have sons by the master about the same time. The wife is sickly so the slave swaps her son with the master's wife's son. That was a much better read imho. There's a movie too that's pretty good as I recall. I'm so enjoying your channel.
@PrettyBrownEyeReader8 жыл бұрын
Great discussion video! I have finished several books that come to mind that are problematic for me. The Help is one of them. I couldn't fathom why this book was being held as a masterpiece while perpetuating every negative sterotype about African Americans. I finished the book for a book club discussion in which I was in the minority who was troubled by the content. A book I read this year, Sold by Patricia McCormick centers on child sex trafficking in Nepal. I was fine with the book until the author introduced a white American to "save" the main character from trafficking.
@AyannaTeachMe8 жыл бұрын
i love this channel
@SomdahSaysSo8 жыл бұрын
It's funny you brought this up. I recently finished a book that was set right after the slaves were freed. The racist things said and how some of the black people were described made me want to throw the book and I almost quit reading a couple of times. The author was black but said in an interview that he wrote it that way to reflect the times. I understand he wanted to be as accurate as possible but it doesn't change the fact that I was bothered by it. I ended up finishing it and it was a good book overall but I wouldn't reread it and im hesitant to read books like that because to me it's draining and frustrating. I think books like this are necessary but I'm going to limit myself to them.
@booksnq43888 жыл бұрын
What was the book?
@SomdahSaysSo8 жыл бұрын
+booksnq Freeman by Leonard Pitts Jr. I haven't decided I'm going to review it.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+SomdahSaysSo interesting...were the descriptions and offensive things coming from the characters or were they like in the narration?? I expect white people from this period to say awful things and when it's coming from the characters I can accept that but when it feels like it's coming from the author is when I get upset.
@booksnq43888 жыл бұрын
+SomdahSaysSo Wow. Pitts is black so I'm surprised.
@SomdahSaysSo8 жыл бұрын
It came from the characters and when they narrated to since the book was told from various characters point of view
@walkinthewoods9818 жыл бұрын
4:39 - 5:39 YES!!!
@LiteraryStoner6 жыл бұрын
I've never read Gone with the wind, though my mom told me it was my grandmother's favorite book. I'm not exactly sure how to feel about that now. I have read Peter Pan though but didn't read that until I was in my 20s and did notice the racism and sexism in it. I sort of understand it's old and a "product of it's time" but it still bugged me...even though i'm not native american. Reading problematic Literature...it's difficult to know what to do with it because pretty much everything is problematic in some way. Because people are. And something can have problematic aspects but also have good aspects too. I don't think either should take away from the other but people do need to realize how hurtful things can be. I am white but I am also disabled and bisexual. I get so pissed off at ableism and biphobia (ableism is why I will never pick up Me Before You, I've heard what happens and I only mention it because I saw another comment mention it) because I am a part of those groups. When one is a part of said group that's getting hurt it's more personal. I wish people could remember that for groups they aren't a part of, just because it doesn't hit them personally doesn't mean it doesn't other people. We should be able to talk about problematic aspects without people thinking we are attacking them for liking something problematic as nothing is perfect but we can't do better if we don't talk about the issues. I hope i'm saying this right. It also reminds me of Dracula. I noticed the sexism in it, and I am a woman but I kept reading because "it's a product of it's time" and i'm sure it is, but it also bored me so much i'm surprised I finished it. And I like horror and vampires (so I thought i'd love Dracula...I was wrong). I apologize if I ramble or anything. Loved the video
@booksnq43888 жыл бұрын
Great points brought up. It gets tiring even in literature today that little stereotypical, not necessarily racist, descriptions or characters are found in books. It depends on the overall story and plot if I finish. L
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+booksnq Another commenter said something similar. That if it's a good story and well written they might be able to enjoy the book despite the offensive content. I know that I am extra-sensitive at the moment so that could be why I just can't enjoy Gone With the Wind because minus those instances of racism it really is a pretty good book. I just can't stand it right now.
@secundrabeasley8558 жыл бұрын
Problematic books are my - I have never gotten past page 50 reading Gone With the Wind. I am prepared for the worst. I brace myself for the worst and when the worst comes, I get upset and the internal storm brews to the point where the book gets tossed across the room. Ditto for Tom Sawyer/HuckFinn. I wish I could get lost In the language and forgo the time period and circumstances during the books publication but I am not there. I do want to finish GWTW and the Twain books but I need to have some distance to appreciate the stories. This is brought to you by the letter w as in worst. :)
@SomdahSaysSo8 жыл бұрын
Do you feel like you are limiting yourself from certain books? I mean we can't ignore that this was how people talked or were viewed in a particular time or area but at the same time its still offensive? I love nonfiction so I have seen it a before but I didn't change the fact that it bothers me.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+SomdahSaysSo see that is exactly what I'm worried about. Am I limiting my reading by not reading something that has offensive depictions of underprivileged groups and if I am is that really a bad thing? I don't like the idea of limiting myself and Lord knows if I were to get rid of every book written by a person with racial prejudices or that might have, say sexist undertones in it, most of my library would be gone. But at the same time, there is so much literature out there that doesn't overtly offend people and am I really hurting myself by choosing not to read the ones that do? I don't think there's an easy answer to these questions but they've been on my mind for the past coupla weeks.
@SomdahSaysSo8 жыл бұрын
+Mickey's Booktube Experiment that's something I struggle with as well I guess it depends on the book and how much you are willing to put up with. I remember reading Elaine Brown A Taste of Power. She described how sexist and misogynistic the black men were in the Black Panthers. I wanted to quit the book so many times and I did throw it because I was so pissed off by what the male member s were doing to the women but she was telling her truth and how many black women in such a high rank can give you an inside look into that time and the organization?
@necia8288 жыл бұрын
I saw a discussion of this book last week, on KZfaq and the group Romaticized the hell out of this book. When one commentator said "oh slavery was terrible, but weren't the plantations pretty, and oh the ball gowns!" and waxed poetic about the southern lifestyle being aspirational I almost keeled over. I've never read this book and I've been putting it off for years. I have a knee jerk reaction to things like this and have quit several books that upset me, lol, so I can't be a hypocrite and tell you to finish when I would have thrown it out of the window. Lol. Oddly enough this is a book I'd like to read at some point.
@walkinthewoods9818 жыл бұрын
Lynecia Burgess, this reminds me of a Discussion video I watched on the Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemison. I haven't read the books yet but one of the girls mentioned that the main protagonist was black. It seemed that they were all in love with this story until this was mentioned. One of the girls said, "What? Why do you say that? Where was that in the book?" She was so quiet and confused. The expression on her face and from that period on her comments about the book just went down. She was just trying to process this information but live. It was funny to watch. They were all coming from a feminist love of a book...until the woman was black. lol So telling.
@necia8288 жыл бұрын
very telling!
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Lynecia Burgess I can't imagine...you can't just sweep things like slavery under the rug for ball gowns and southern hospitality. That is what infuriates me about the way many people talk about Gone With the Wind. They want to ignore the issue of slavery in a book that prominently features slaves in the storyline. Like you can't ignore that. It's too much a part of the book to be ignored. It isn't just casual racist remarks. The plot of Gone With the Wind literally suggests that black people were better off as slaves. I just can't...eek...definitely doubt I will ever return to this one.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Lynecia Burgess I can't imagine...you can't just sweep things like slavery under the rug for ball gowns and southern hospitality. That is what infuriates me about the way many people talk about Gone With the Wind. They want to ignore the issue of slavery in a book that prominently features slaves in the storyline. Like you can't ignore that. It's too much a part of the book to be ignored. It isn't just casual racist remarks. The plot of Gone With the Wind literally suggests that black people were better off as slaves. I just can't...eek...definitely doubt I will ever return to this one.
@necia8288 жыл бұрын
It cannot, and it was barely addressed, save for one person, while the others just smiled and moved on. SMH.
@dorkabrain8 жыл бұрын
I think I left a comment on your last video where you were talking about reading Gone With the Wind so I might be repeating myself, I apologise. I don't think I've read anything - by choice - that is so blatant in it's ism as Gone with the Wind; I haven't read it, but I'm basing that on what I know of it, and the examples you gave in the video. I had to read a book in high school called The Cay that I remember being really repulsed by because of it's racism, and I think I've tried to block it out of my mind because it was a horrible reading experience. That said, I think when faced with any sort of bigotry within a book, I try to look at it from multiple angles - is it from the voice of a character? are we the reader led to see the fault of that character, or is it glorified and championed? is it coming from the narration, thus the author? All those questions will definitely dictate how I speak about it when referencing the piece. And even if I enjoy a book, I try to call it out for what it is. Regardless of those questions, I think it always makes me uncomfortable because just as people defend authors and characters because of their past time, I am existing in 2016 and I personally can't read that sort of thing without having some natural feeling of disgust, anger, disappointment, revulsion, etc. It's interesting that you brought up Peter Pan. I think I said in my comment last time that I was frustrated, but not too surprised that I'd seen people championing the book without a single comment about the racist portrayals. I feel really similar about Peter Pan. I see many people touting it as a childhood favourite, and I have to wonder if it's nostalgia that is clouding the acknowledgement of the racism, or if they would not mention it regardless. I think a lot of people - in this age of "fangirling" - struggle to feel comfortable picking faults of things they love. They seemingly equate criticism, no matter how fair or constructive, with hate. But I think it also speaks something if nothing is said, if that makes sense.
@thisisyrrobotfriend8 жыл бұрын
For me I think I draw the line when the racism or sexism is the point of the book rather than a peripheral issue. Like for example I can't stand Witches of Eastwick because Updike wrote it with the goal of shitting on feminists. It's a really tough topic to draw a firm line in the sand about, I guess in general it can still be interesting to read these books in a historical context or to challenge our ideas about what is and is not okay in literature, but at the same time I think it is totally valid to not enjoy books that represent offensive and outdated ideals. Great discussion topic I'm definitely going to creep in the comments and see what everyone else says.
@zezeest.97448 жыл бұрын
I think it's up to you to decide if you want to finish it. I definitely know what you mean here. I had trouble reading She by H. Rider Haggard because he was ethnocentric and misogynistic and he infused those characteristics in his protagonist, Holly. It was difficult to read but I was determined to complete it just to see what's so great about the story and how it's written. I took breaks while reading to make it through the book.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Zezee St. (Zezee with Books) yeah. I think the current political climate makes reading something like Gone with the Wind hard. I am curious about the rest of the story although I have seen the movie so I do know how it ends. I definitely have given it up for now but maybe one day I'll go back to it.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Zezee St. (Zezee with Books) yeah. I think the current political climate makes reading something like Gone with the Wind hard. I am curious about the rest of the story although I have seen the movie so I do know how it ends. I definitely have given it up for now but maybe one day I'll go back to it.
@jbsubscribes63998 жыл бұрын
You raise such important issues about literature in your videos. I think many readers have the ability to read with detachment. They place the piece into an historical context and read it from that perspective. Others find it impossible to bear the cruelty for commerce imbedded into the narrative. I stop reading immediately if I smell pandering.
@MimiMoon7118 жыл бұрын
This is why I've avoided reading Gone With the Wind. I know it's going to piss me off. As you've stated, with the way things are in America, now is not the time to read something like that. I don't know if I will ever be ready to read this book. As far as giving Margaret Mitchell a pass because of the time period Gone With the Wind was set in, Im not too sure I would. She was a wealthy southern debutante who's family lived through the Civil War and told her stories about it religiously. So it wouldn't surprise me if the way she wrote the Black characters represented how she actually felt about Blacks.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Jaye H Exactly and somebody else commented when I first announced I was reading Gone With the Wind that while it might have been the norm for Mitchell and her people to think it was okay to think of blacks this way, it was definitely not the norm for blacks in her time period. The fact that it was common doesn't minimize the hurt that it caused. Its a really hard and complicated thing to think about and there's probably no right answer to it.
@ClaireDuggins8 жыл бұрын
Damn, this is tough. I put down Twilight and Gone With The Wind because I found them both offensive AND boring, but I finished Peter Pan because while the segment with the Native Americans was godawfully offensive, the rest of the book was completely fantastic. Like a big gross wriggling maggot in an otherwise delicious apple.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+Claire Duggins I've thought this before that a book can't be both offensive AND bad; it's such a horrible combination. But what do we do about that horrible scene in that otherwise wonderful book. Do we talk about it? I was going to get my 4 year old niece an illustrated copy of the book because I did really like it, but I didn't because I didn't want one of the few depictions of Native Americans that she sees to be that (although my sister later on let her watch the movie so we failed to dodge that bullet). It's so hard....
@ClaireDuggins8 жыл бұрын
I feel like talking about it is the only thing we CAN do at this point. It may not present any actual solutions to the problem, but acknowledging it can at least remind us that the problem exists, and of where we've come from and where we are as a society. Still though, it's difficult because I would wholeheartedly recommend Peter Pan to young readers if it wasn't for that horrendously racist scene, but I also don't want to give them a watered-dumbed-down version. Getting back to talking about the problem, perhaps older children and their parents can read it together and discuss the problematic elements and why prejudice is wrong. Again, I feel like there are no clear-cut answers at the moment...
@timetoread17958 жыл бұрын
I am so confused about this. I just finished Peter Pan, and the book is so sweet and dark and just fantastic, but the representations of Native people are just bleeerrrggg. It is rough, I have no idea how to deal with it. I really want to read Gone With the Wind, but I don't think I can deal with it right now. Oh how funny...you are talking about Peter Pan now, lol. Ohmygosh, yes!! That scene is INSANE. I don't think I have not finished a book because it is offensive, but honestly I might not have noticed if I read something offensive a few years ago. I might take a peak at my read books and see if there is something there. I am curious. OH...MY...GOD. Are you serious???!?!?! I am not surprised you put the book down after that scene.
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+time to read! I think the best way to deal with this type of literature is to acknowledge the issues present in the piece when we talk about them. I'm annoyed by people who don't think that these aspects of a piece of literature need to be addressed, that people are being too PC or ignoring context when they mention a piece has racist, sexist, or homophobic material. People don't get up in arms when someone says the characters are undeveloped so I don't see why they have an issue when people say hey this character's portrayal is insensitive or offensive. After all part of the reason why the black characters in Gone With the Wind's portrayal are offensive is because of how one-dimensional they are. Why is it okay to say the characters in a book are one-dimensional, but it's politically correct and overly sensitive to acknowledge that they're one-dimensional because of racist ideology. Sorry for the rant but I don't know if you heard about Lionel Shriver's speech on cultural appropriation. Basically she got called out for writing something racist and she responded by calling critics over sensitive and accusing them of censorship. It's been on my mind lately
@mickeysbooktubeexperiment30298 жыл бұрын
+time to read! I think the best way to deal with this type of literature is to acknowledge the issues present in the piece when we talk about them. I'm annoyed by people who don't think that these aspects of a piece of literature need to be addressed, that people are being too PC or ignoring context when they mention a piece has racist, sexist, or homophobic material. People don't get up in arms when someone says the characters are undeveloped so I don't see why they have an issue when people say hey this character's portrayal is insensitive or offensive. After all part of the reason why the black characters in Gone With the Wind's portrayal are offensive is because of how one-dimensional they are. Why is it okay to say the characters in a book are one-dimensional, but it's politically correct and overly sensitive to acknowledge that they're one-dimensional because of racist ideology. Sorry for the rant but I don't know if you heard about Lionel Shriver's speech on cultural appropriation. Basically she got called out for writing something racist and she responded by calling critics over sensitive and accusing them of censorship. It's been on my mind lately
@timetoread17958 жыл бұрын
Please, rant away!!! I haven't heard about Lionel Shriver's speech...will have to search for it. And I will definitely take your advice and just make sure to acknowledge these things when they come up in the books I read. My only problem is that I am a super sensitive person, and cry quite easily.