the intro had no right to be this funny

i think newjeans & nmixx are two opposing examples of talent not being everything within kpop. music, marketing, & branding is. nmixx has been coined as one of the most talented groups in 4th gen, but they're not as popular due to jyp's choices. whereas newjeans aren't necessarily the most talented in the industry rn, but they're the most popular due to ador's choices. +another thing, i rlly hate when ppl say "groups like (insert underrated kpop group here) should be more famous", but they hardly ever go out of their way to engage with said groups.

For better or for worse, there's a reason they're called idols and not singers

i agree with basically all the points in your video. from what i've seen, discussions of different idols' vocal abilities is 95% of the time just brought up during fanwars in parasocial individuals. people want their idol to feel superior and the capability to hold a note is an indicator of how some idols are "better" than others

i always see the argument "well it's their job." , and i totally get being frustrated with kpop idols not being the best at singing, but their job is so much more than singing. being an idol is like doing fifty things at once and balancing another fifty books on your head at the same time. i feel like some of the idols who get criticized clearly put in their best effort as well, but they get hate for that too. so tiring

I kind of question individuals that view less talented idols and their singing ability as "dragging down" the rest of the industry, when the inverse has happened in the western pop industry. There are plenty of bad singers in the western pop landscape but, you always tend to hear about the more talented performers and singers, the Beyonce's, the Usher's, the Ariana Grande and Bruno Mar's of the world. I'll admit there are radio friendly tunes that are performed by average at best vocalists but those tend to be few and far between. Like Olivia Rodrigo dominates the radio and, she's a great singer imo, same for Taylor Swift, I don't love her music but I'll admit she's a great singer, thus she garners more attention. Maybe stans see lesser talent and are worried that Kpop will fall down a similar path the 1st generation did but they can circumvent that themselves by just propping up talented idols instead of bringing less talented idols down. Like do we not realize the power we have as a community? Did the Loona situation teach us absolutely nothing?

8:25 you’re so real for this!!! Needless to say, I’m never shutting up about Nmixx😂 What this trilogy has taught me about you is that you’re someone who’s willing to hear different sides and perspectives while staying true to your own beliefs I’ve recently made a video on this encore stage situation; I think if we want to prioritise talent (or vocals) in kpop then focusing on lifting up those who deserve appreciation in this matter instead of targeting and bringing down those who lack in this area is pretty good way to go.

Yes, they should be able to carry a tune. They don't have to be at the levels of Mamamoo or SHINee, but AT LEAST have a stable tune. Wonyoung is not the best vocalist, but when she does live performance (or encore), she can hold a stable tune well.

love to hear you yapp bestie, the intro is hilarius lol

this Trilogy™ i believe serves as a reminder to the community that kpop means something different to everyone. the industry isn’t a monolith; so why are we expecting people to consume and perceive a multifaceted industry in just one way? it feels limiting and counterintuitive to the growth so many wish to see when we police fellow community members on their opinions of such trivial things (i say trivial bc once you break things down subjectivity is all it truly is).

I appreciate the fact that you fully dedicated yourself to understanding others while still representing your genuine thoughts and feelings. That, in my opinion, is very respectable, and I think few people would be able to do it this well. I do have to wonder why the kpop fandom is so dedicated to not being the kpop fandom. Yes. Most individual fandoms can be toxic as hell, but the larger fandom at least should be something you enjoy. You're allowed to have negative opinions, but why would you pick up a Shakespeare play if you don't like Shakespeare- or even just reading period? You wouldn't. And you have a free pass from me to skip Le Sserafim on any playlist they show up on. It's that easy. The other thing that gets me is how this is the same fandom that freaks out if there are similarities in two music videos or something. Kpop groups can't explore similar concepts because that's plagiarism, but Sakura is singlehandedly ruining the reputation of kpop vocalists? You can't have both. Are they destined to be completely separate entities, or are their talents inexplicably bound? I'm pretty sure Twilight's apple cover was an allusion to Eve, and I can recognize that without thinking Twilight ruined any shred of importance the Bible has.

IN DEFENSE OF SAKURA THE TRILOGY

As a pop fan for way longer the kpop I always had in mind that skill and arterist and marketable and popularity are different parameters. In skills back dancers, choreographers, back vocals, back band, producers, lyricists are in general higher then the stars. We value the whole performance not a merithocracy of skills. Not even for job application skills arent the only requirements. Similar to a favorite movie. The protagonist actor can't hold all the film alone, the whole must work.

To me the key is in the job description of "idol". To my understanding an idol isn't quite the same as an artist, though they can overlap. I enjoy it when an idol can sing, and respect those the skills of those that are talented, but when I tune in to an idol that really quite can't, I'm tuning in to the other aspects of the job description. Sakura has other merits that draw fans in, and those are just as valid as vocals. I do understand people to whom vocals are a sticking point, and there's some merit to the argument that the industry will shift according to audience responce. If you want to see more vocally talented idols, buy their music and merch. Support them monetarily, and you might influence the trends. But people don't tend to put their money where their mouths are, and instead we get "discourse" which borders on bullying and doesn't really lead anywhere.

NMIXX hasn't been doing that well because their music missed what the current market wants. They've changed their style and it's showing results. I guess it all boils down to what you like Kpop for. For me, I got into Kpop through Mamamoo. I liked the music, I liked the live performances, and that was always the priority for me. So those are the things I need in an idol group. Even with groups that have good music, if they're not actually capable of singing those songs live, it ruins the songs for me, I end up listening to it and stanning the producer. If you're a kpop stan for something else, your priorities would be different.

should kpop be about talent & should groups w/ "inherently" more talent have more recognition? yes, but it'll never work like that. despite sakura's "lack of vocal talent" there's a reason hybe chose her. despite hyewon's "lack of talent", there's a reason she debuted. visuals, personality, etc. the industry is unfair. i hate it just as much as everyone else, but what can you do?

I honestly think that there needs to be at least 2 people in a group who can sing but not everyone needs to do that. There are dancers and rappers too, kpop is so much more than just singing, and talent in general. You could be the most talented group out there but if you made horrible music I wouldn't care tbh, then I'd rather listen to someone "untalented" who makes good music. It doesn't hurt to admit someone from a group you like can't sing, it doesn't mean you're hating on them either or that they don't deserve what they have. I think Ateez is a group that became famous partly because of how talented they are, and I think that's so deserved honestly, but I wouldn't care if they didn't make good music (which they do, really, they make amazing music). Also I wanna thank you for being so respectful towards everyone in this video, and in general, it's really refreshing.

Let's be also very fair to Sakura, she does really want to do better, and it's clear from music recording videos she wants to improve. I think encouraging her to get that improvement with hard work rather than putting her down, which can be a very awful method, is much better. Being mean could create an insecurity her whole career that she is doing badly, even at times she might be doing well. I absolutely agree with how hatred is an awful way to get idols to grow in certain sectors people find lacking. I believe she has the potiental to do it, and we just need to give her a pat on the back and tell her she can do it, allowing her to go at her own pace, rather than actually pushing her forcefully, which will force her to overwork herself, and even if she might improve a lot, it'll have a lot negative consequences on Sakura mentally. *This comment is open to any criticism, feel free to state nicely or harshly to me what you think can be proven wrong and deconstructed, I don't take it personal and do my best to see the points :)*

The intro 😭

She doesn't have to be singer but decent enough tho the defense saying well shes idol not a singer. Singing is still part of her job yes her job isn't to be singer there yunjin for that but she needs to be able to hold a note.

If you (Kpop fans) like live vocals then there’s plenty of groups with them. Stick to what you like and stop listening to groups you don’t like. Lsfm doesn’t have great vocals but are phenomenal performers. People need to stick to their own fandoms and stay out of others but it’s the internet people love drama.

I’m with you, I got into kpop in 2008 when I was in middle school. I watched ALL of the music show videos that got posted on KZfaq, and they didn’t have the vocal back tracks the same way they do today. Sometimes the vocals were rough af, but it’s always been about the ~spectacle~ I loved SHINee because they were so obviously talented, but you know, Taemin and Minho were pretty weak vocally. I still stanned, they’re people I found entertaining, it was always exciting to see what they’d do next, but they’ve grown A LOT with all the experience they’ve had. Taemin is so vocally talented now, but I’m telling you the second gen was not all about vocal talent. Not to mention the sophistication of the dance that’s happening these days blows what was happening 10, 15 years ago out of the water. These groups and idols have lots of different types of talents, they’re always hyper critiqued. I love the idea of focusing on what you enjoy and hyping up the folks that are incredibly talented. I think generally it’s a lot healthier and more productive to pay attention to what is working and making more of that happen then attacking people who aren’t doing what you like.

the editing skills go crazy. nice one choujimi

You actually gave me some insight on this whole situation. Thank you for this video, this made me really think about everything and how I went about it as well.

i love how you managed to figure out your opinion and improve on it and yap throughout the three videos rather than just sticking with one thing

Quietly wheezed at nearly 4 AM in the morning over the intro lmaooo

Congrats on your win, Choujimi!! 🏆🏅 Glad you could find some humor in the situation despite the hateful and disgusting comments. 🤣🤣 Having a Kpop commentary channel is not for the faint of heart.

I’ve never been more excited for a video from the first few minutes

Lmao @ the "Yapper of the Year" sequence 😂 THE SAGA CONTINUES I continue to be mindblown that this is somehow controversial. 😂 Also, edit to add that I couldn't possibly agree with you any harder about NMIXX's lack of recognition. Talent clearly is not the sole driving force behind popularity or they'd be the undisputed champs of 4th gen.

One thing I'd like to clarify is that you say the average performance skill was higher in the 2nd gen, and I'd say this is true of vocals but not performance overall. Dance and stage presence are parts of performance as well, and dance skills have definitely increased over the years while stage presence is a bit more subtle but I think doing winks and looks at certain points of the choreo has been a more recent development. The performance skill is similar, it's just directed at different aspects of live performance.

What I find hilarious, or a bit weird, is that the word talent in itself, is a type of objectification of the person/idol. Because talent, is something that you are born with, an innate ability, or predisposition for something that underline the actual hard work of a person. Just because someone is more talented than someone else doesn't mean they work less. As it is the case for Sakura, I think we all agree that she is an extremely hard worker, but maybe that hard work didn't go to singing. Or maybe she just has a harder time with singing than any other skill. It actually doesn't matter the amount of hard work, people don't enjoy a product because they were a lot of hard work put into it. What I mean with the focus on talent being a certain type of objectification is this: justifying why you like someone based on abilities or characteristics, for example "i like her, because she has a beautiful voice" (like Swan from Purple Kiss) or "because she's beautiful" is certainly valid, but also an reduction of the entirety of a person. In real life, and not idol-culture, parasocial relationships and any celebrity-fan type of relationships, we like a person for the person. Them being good at singing isn't the reason why, because we don't NEED a reason.

Haven't been following this discussion very closely. I'm just so incredibly tired of trying to find live clips of a song only to find that there's zero live singing or equally bad the backing track turned up to max and the live singing turned down to the faintest whisper, and then there's the fake live backtracks that are pre recorded and comes with complete with grunts and slightly more shaky vocals... just give me real live vocals and skip some of that hard choreography

yes. they should always be able to carry a tune

Agreed ! You covered everything really well

THE INTRO HELPPP

It’s not only Sakuras fault that she doesn’t sing the best. Hybe vocal training and the fact that she used to be in a group where vocals were something that were not focused on back in Japan. Tho not her fault, it is the bare minimum. It is her job whether people like it or not. Tho the job is called idol, singing, dancing, modeling AND performing are in the job description. If hybe/sakura don’t want to improve her vocals, that’s their choice if they want to or not, but fans can’t really be mad when they get criticized. And I’m not saying that hate is warranted to her because criticism and hate aren’t the same.

My Yapper of the year ❤

Call it yapping all you want, i rlly enjoyed this video and all the good points you made. You’re a very eloquent speaker!

i love a self aware king 😭😭 u ate so hard tho fr

Okay well u actually deserved that award because hearing you yap makes my day

you hit the nail on the head with this one, Choujimi. A comment I've seen a few times now is along the lines of "if you enjoyed their performance then I don't want to know you/be friends with you because you don't like being truthful" like...I'm sorry what? What in the world are you actually saying? Why can't anybody just let us enjoy something for what it is?

(tw Long response is long) I agree with a lot of points made in this video, although I wish it wasn’t so since the KPOP landscape atm is just straight up depressing. In her defense, a lot of Olivia Rodrigo’s naysayers don’t like her because of her image; People are super quick to write off anything a teenager likes and Olivia haters always say that they dislike her because they think she writes songs targeted towards teens…which is why I feel like this video is treading into “are KPOP songs actually good” territory lol. I would like to point out real quick that it also shows that people genuinely don’t know anything about vocal talent on a strictly technical basis. Everyone is quick to call Adele a vocalist when honestly she doesn’t bring anything new to the table on that front. Adele sings WAY more safely now after her surgery, but it’s clear that she’s a cursive singer. What makes Adele stand out is her songwriting capabilities and how well she can resonate with an audience. …Anyway, liking a group’s music despite the fact idols never really write or produce their own songs is genuinely one of the biggest reasons I think that people are ok with how untalented KPOP idols are vocally other than the parasocial relationship. What people don’t understand is that KPOP idols are here to just be the face of said music like the animated characters in The Gorillaz. It’s difficult to get a group like XG who are willing to not only admit that from the very beginning, but to be openly proud of the music they’re pushing. It’s why their identity is so cohesive, there’s a genuine creative vision that they actually get to participate in unlike the vast majority of groups these days. Do I still think KPOP idols should meet bare minimum requirements for a clean live performance? Absolutely. However, I agree that Sakura should not be held 100% accountable for her poor vocal skills when she meets the requirements that the industry demands of her honestly. I just hope for all our sakes that people take this as a sign that we need to be more conscientious about the media we consume since it’s unfair to idols in general. Companies know that their idols will never be able to go solo or that they HAVE to join a subunit in order to stay in the business since they can’t sing an entire song, perform, or produce music on their own. They are setting idols up for failure and they know it.

Great video, Choujimi. And that opening... XD. I see what you did there lol. Keep up your great work!

To praise something, you don't need to bring another thing down.

Of course this video would show up in my algorithm 5 days later, but anyway- I really appreciate this video and your viewpoint. I was critical of your first video on the subject, which was rushed and not fully formed as a cogent defense of someone who was clearly being bullied. I will always maintain that I think Sakura is talented in so many other ways (she’s an excellent entertainer), but being able to sing needs to be something she’s able to do as a performing and recording artist. I appreciate that you brought up “talent” as THE singular greatest focus of being an idol, because I don’t think it’s THE singular greatest focus of idol music culture, nor do I think it’s ever been. The appeal of K-pop idol culture is in its prismatic nature- if it was all about the vocal talent then the physical visual appeal of the idols faces and bodies, their music video visuals, clothing, concepts, the music itself, their dancing ability, ability to be perfectly synchronized, media training, competency at variety, personality, their stage presence would not also be areas of focus in their training nor in what appeals to fans. All of these things are what idols are expected aspects of an idol’s talent outside of singing ability. I do think the more important things to execute to a higher degree are the things that relate to their performance as singers, and I personally won’t accept lowering the bar on that. I saw the fans in the twitter comments and quote rts criticizing Sakura- many of them had avis of idols who also had the same vocal ability as her, or had less stage presence, or were average at best (and kindest) dancers. What about them was acceptable to say “Imma stan that!” but Sakura had to be ripped to shreds? I want k-pop fans to be honest with themselves on this and not lean on tribalism. Don’t throw rocks when you live in a glass house. The overwhelming majority of k-pop idols sit in the “average singer” range, some are above average singers, maybe a handful and a half are vocalists, and an extreme few are powerhouse vocalists. A great deal of k-pop idols are below average, and some just aren’t singers at all (I’m not talking about the ones who’re made into rappers, I’m talking about the ones who official position says they’re some level of vocalist). Every k-pop idol doesn’t have to aspire to be a powerhouse vocalist to be a good, average singer who can pick up a mic and sound pleasing to the ear. Idols don’t have to be born with an innate talent for singing, but almost anyone can develop a talent for singing with consistent training and effort. I think there’s something to be said about companies who provide very little to zero vocal training, but k-pop fans still manage to invest in these idols/groups regardless. I believe this is something you mentioned in your first video-that singing ability is not the primary reason you’re a k-pop fan (or something to that effect, sorry if I’m getting it wrong)- and I think that is the case for the vast majority of other k-pop fans whose faves are not vocalists, powerhouse vocalists, or even above average singing level idols. Is it a wonder that vocals aren’t as much of a focus when everything else about idols is? To your point about NMIXX, they are the most vocally talented 4th gen girl group, but the music didn’t bang, and they scrambled for an identity. Then we look at Babymon in the 5th gen and the same thing is happening. Vocal talent can only do so much- the rest of whatever the idol is packaging for consumption has to be appealing too. Some of this other stuff you addressed I think is unfair projection on you. This has gone on long enough that I forgot some of the other points I wanted to make looool. Have a good day, choujimi!

Imagine if live were set up like this that it is always fair and the people who work the hardest and are the most talented always have the most success and nothing else would matter like the marketing, luck, timing etc.

My problem with NMIXX is their songs 😫. The “change up” parts are too jarring and take me out of the song. It makes me want to fast forward through that part and get back to the original song. 😢

the production quality is insane

I think the best solution is to just not support something you don't like. You don't like Sakura's vocals? Don't listen to the songs, don't buy the merch and just don't do anything which can benefit them financially. When the company realises their sales have dropped compared to the last comeback, they'll definitely look up the reason why. It's hard yes, but a group like Loona proved it's possible so why can't we do that? At the end their whole career depends on us fans, we do have the power to change things.

Honestly, I feel like this should've been the first video but at least we r here now. I hope those who, like myself, saw the first and or second video and git rlly upset and spoke abt it, see this one as well. It seems the first 2 have been put out prematurely and the issue wasn't ur points but the explanation of them. I'm glad u made this video, and I'm glad I watched it bcuz I was genuinely worried that people would take some of your points and RUN with them, just creating an even less enjoyable state for Kpop.

everything is well said!! thank you for mentioning those who deeply care about the performing arts. i'm a musician with perfect pitch, so it especially bothers me when an idol can't sing. (that intro is s-tier btw)

This vid + many other vids you made definitely let me learn a lot of admirable qualities bout yourself such as your ability to make jokes when appropriate, debating bout the sides and opinions that aren't popular, and singlehandedly being one of the kindest people ever 💙 Luv ya bestie (well i hope i can be your bestie haha)

I would like to add during aespa's savage era their encore stages were highly praised cause for such a difficult song and unimportant stage they were singing high notes and trying hard to be heard over the bad mic set up. They barely sounded different from the studio version. And as for le sserafim, the girls are overworked and they dance very hard so its understandable they sound tired during encores. Easy choreo had them flying and popping and these performances are not just one take, its multiple so that shows can choose the best takes.

yeah, I agree. I also struggle to understand how someone who doesn’t put a lot of weight onto talent is dehumanizing idols. maybe I’m just not seeing it, but I feel like I actually see more dehumanization from the other side. for example, on one of your previous videos somebody left a comment that idols who can’t sing are “faulty products.” isn’t that dehumanizing? a lot of people aren’t offering healthy criticism, they’re just being downright mean, and I feel like THAT is what is dehumanizing. it frustrates me a lot because I feel like a lot of kpop fans forget/ignore that idols are indeed people too who deserve respect, regardless of how untalented you think they are.

I found this whole debate discussion very interesting, but I also think it’s just because I’ve been a fan of K-pop for really long time I was like 11 years old when I discovered it because of my older sister, it was the one thing that we had in common having such a huge age gap, which was 12 years so I grew up watching second third and fourth and fifth and idol crop off the way that the industry has changed in K-pop and everything but I do feel like sometimes people forget that yes I think it’s more of just basic skills you have to have but you have to have a certain type of vibe and you have to be marketable but also I feel like people forget that sometimes it really is just if you can bring people in you will be in a group group. I also think that there are outliers in my opinion I feel like Sakura is an outlier, because of the fact that she was a JP idol for 10 years she talked about the fact that, even when she was part of AKB48, they had tried giving her vocal lesson she just does not have a really strong talent when it comes to singing if she does not and she never has had great vocal, but she knows how to put on a shell. She is a performer through and through she just isn’t a vocal performer and she knows how to draw peoples attention. She knows how to draw in a crowd and I feel it we always see in K-pop. There will be someone who pops up and there’s normally maybe one or two of them every generation where they don’t have Strong talent in certain aspects, but they’re the type of people where they clearly were born to be seen to be honest stage people to pay attention to them. And I feel like that’s exactly where she falls under. She knows what she’s doing. She’s been in the industry for over a decade. She bought a men’s popularity to AK 48 as someone who actually was a fan and still is of the 48 franchise and have seen and watch many girls come and graduate. She was definitely one of the more successful members in terms of people being absolutely in love with her Because she just has that factor and I feel like that’s something that a lot of people forget about when it comes to K-pop is sometimes you have an it factor and that’s why you get scouted that’s why they want you you have that special something that makes you one very marketable, but you were clearly just made to be a celebrity. Not to mention, I always feel like whenever fans argue over this it’s such a mute argument, because we have groups that have existed and still do that are so criminally underrated so criminally forgotten about people do not promote them. They don’t have as many fans as they have, they should have, and they are literally vocalist. They are filled with nothing but people who are stupidly talented at singing . They are trained professionals. They can literally sing circles around some of the more popular idol groups, and they are still K-pop idol, but no one is listening to them as much as they should be. No one is promoting them as much as they should be. Their fan bases aren’t big as they should be and they kind of just proves the point that no it’s not about talent because we have those talented groups where if you really want to hear a bunch of people who can sing their asses off you can go stand those groups but they don’t because even as fans I feel like people understand it’s more than just talent that makes an idol or an idol group shine, but they refuse to acknowledge that.

Conocí a el kpop en la 3era GENERACIÓN, me acostumbré a la calidad de artistas como BTS y mamamoo, es raro ver grupos que no pueden cantar. pero supongo que es por eso que son llamados idolos y no cantantes. me gusta la performance de muchos grupos de la 4ta generación, pero ya saben, es un poco raro ver que al final del día no pueden cantar su propia canción bien. supongo que son mas que todo bailarines y performeadores.

This an example of the sad reality in Kpop. Some very talented idols don't get their deserved recognition and become successful because their company either can't or don't manage and promote them properly. While big companies who have plenty of resources don't invest much in their idols' talent because they know that they'll be successful no matter what. Talent isn't the most important in becoming successful☹️

honestly when it comes to kpop and talent, it's nice that someone is talented, but I don't care about your talent if I don't like your music, I listen to what I like

Honestly when I was watching a K-pop stage for the first time(it was a 3rd gen group ntm),I said verbatim “this isn’t about talent is it?” I care A LOT about vocal talent and skill but pop music is notorious for having people excel without needing incredible vocal talent. I think it’s important to remember that vocal prowess isn’t the only skill an idol can have. Using mamamoo as an example, for as long as they’ve been leading in the industry with in terms of vocals, they’ve relentlessly criticized for their choreography. Edit: I might be going for runner up in the yapper Olympics 😔

I think that's the thing, i would the skills needed to be an idol fit kura a lot, especially considering her many years of entertaining others in Japan 💙💙

the fact that "they're idols not singers" is people's excuse for why it's completely fine for idols to be completely incapable of singing their own damn songs is ridiculous. if they can't sing they shouldn't be releasing music. simple.

I will never understand the comparing of groups with talent either but I think it's important to note that while Sakura doesn't have to be the best vocalist she shouldn't drag down her group. Granted she isn't the only one doing this but its unfair for members like Chaewon and Yunjin that can hold a tune

The job of an idol, like any employee. is to bring some value to the company in exchange for compensation. How the idol does this is in their job description, which varies as you said. However, in nearly all job descriptions, there is performing, which often includes singing. If Sakura's only job was to sing, then she would've never been hired. Her value lies in things liek her established fanbase, which makes it easier to get fans to pay for things. However, her job description still includes singing (though not necessarily being the main or lead vocalist), which is in the job description for most idols, exceptions may have rapping instead (and unlike singers, idol rappers are almost always criticized). Her singing and dancing is going to be how most fans will interact with her (concerts, streaming and CDs, shows) rather than say visual aspects (modeling, magazines, ads), which are things that her label may also value more than her singing. So it is a fair expectation, if you are primarily watching someone sing and dance, to be competent in those areas even if it's not the primary reason that they are hired since they are still paid to do those things.

omg choujimi face reveal

Im one of those ppl that dont rlly favour sakura because of her singing incompetence. But hearing you talk abt your opinion so openly (and warmly?) was so refreshing. I recently got into kpop and definitely use it for the escapism aspect, and have avoided interacting with other ppl bc its so intense. but hearing someone strongly opinionated, but also sensibly kind abt it, i def have been looking at sakura in a different light.

My standard is that the groups should at least be able to sing their own songs to at least 80% completion while standing still i.e. encore stages. Completely understand if the focus is on performance/dance over vocals but ultimately they're idols the job is to sing AND dance. They can focus on one but they can't completely be failing at the other. Also most of the groups that "aren't great vocalist" will do better if they had more targeted training. But training means less time doing promotion.

I like the emphasis on the word NEED because I think it's really important. When people NEED to do something, there's almost always an OR ELSE... People need food and water or else they die. People need to get to the airport early or else they might miss their flight. People need to cook ground beef well-done or else they risk food poisoning. In this discussion, a lot of people are not specifying what the or else is. Because if people think "idols need to be able to sing or else I'm not going to be a fan of theirs" that's a totally defensible view. Nobody should be forced to stan anybody. But in practice, people are behaving as if their stance is "idols need to be able to sing or else they've broken a cosmic rule and are therefore fair targets for harassment" which is totally indefensible. And some do try arguments about respecting talent, but when they face pushback their bottom line usually seems to be "a rule has been broken (and therefore anything that follows including my reaction is the idols' fault, not mine)" I think this speaks to a broader trend of people being unwilling to blame the direct source of toxicity. The whole idea of groups being "set up" is similar. It's victim blaming to uphold the illusion that if you do all the right things, you can avoid the ire of the mob.

i agree a lot, but also i have a slight different point of view about the first argument. i don't think kpop was ever about talent in any generation, at least not solely, because there's always been a fair share of untalented people on each generation (and i would extent that same argument to pop music in general) and we are just clouded with nostalgia. just because more talented idols debuted it doesn't mean that the untalented ones stopped getting away with it, it's actually the opposite because the way that the kpop industry works makes room for that. what seem to fly over people's heads on that discussion is the fact that the kpop industry sells groups, those are not individual singers, it's collective effort, so one member will compensate the flaws of the other and vice-versa. having a group were everybody is all-rounder it's one in a million type of situation, no matter how much the companies try to sell their groups as such. the members need to have different skill sets to fit on a certain archetype and public persona, THIS is the product, not the talent alone, and that has been true for most of pop music's history. no matter how much talented you are if you are not selling anything else apart from that, as far as capitalism is concerned. that's why i never paid no mind to really bad singers on a group if there was a couple of really good ones in the same band, if the person is bringing something to the table, whether a different type of talent or archetype, then i never actually worried about that. every member, more often than not, is gonna add something to the chemistry of the group regardless of their talent. and to me, THAT is what kpop is about: the harmony between a collect of people and what each one of them represents, this is the main appeal, at least to me.

THE INTRO HAD ME DEAD LAUGHING

12:00 and thats what I think happens if you stan the industry as a whole more that being a fan of different artists who happen to be in the same industry/company/events

The thing is with technology and such it is easier to have this whole thing, especially these prerecorded "live" Performances, imagine trying to record a track with breath in the studio and then play them with the backtrack at the same time to seem live. Ypu could do that with the technology from like 10 years ago

I do agree with "idols are not just singers or dancers/rappers" when it comes to people calling idols 'dozens'. A lot of times those dozens are visuals, faces of the group, or more variety show focused. Being talented with bringing popularity and sponsorships to the group and being an entertaining personality are valid skills that kpop companies are also going to be considering when they form the lineup for a group especially since variety shows and CFs play a huge role in promoting to the Korean general public and idol's personalities are a central part of their appeal. Acting too cuz I was seeing stans on twitter pretending bomi from apink was irrelevant just bc 'shes only famous in korea' or nugu bc only kdrama fans would know her when those kdrama celebs are more relevant and well known to the korean gp than many of their favs. I do still believe that idols should be able to sing though, it doesn't have to be very good but even variety focused idols in the past were decently stable with the few lines they got. On the other hand the newer gen of fans are a lot more focused on 'all rounders' and dozens when I feel like with older groups people were more okay with acknowledging that some members were just there to be funny and popular? It could be the rise in survival shows that made everyone hypercritical on what skills members bring to the table or when companies started forgoing position labels to make them all all-rounders idk

the intro is so funny i mean you should be getting an award consider this me giving you an award

5:10 why is this the case? to answer your question and reconcile the discrepancy the response to a lack of talent in idols in 1st gen vs 4th gen - i would attribute this to technological and digital developments like the rise of social media, especially tiktok and instagram (and a whole range of other platforms popular in asian countries). we see this not just in kpop but in other industries too; being a celebrity has been 'democratised' and now we have influencers. 1st gen kpop idols aspired to be talented performers, but 4th gen idols don't need to aspire to that same goal because they can easily be branded and marketed like influencers are (dance trends on tiktok/reels, personalised fan messages, idols getting personal instagram handles). kpop idols are so much more accessible than they used to be and so people don't hold them to as high standards as they would have back in the previous generations.

i love the intro 😂

I would say i agree with some people on the globalisation in kpop like kpop songs have become more "Western" to some extent i feel after the globalisation of kpop from the 3rd gen changed the viewpoints of kpop due to western music fans bcs some western singers are horrible while kpop was more "focused" on talent before the western influence changed the stance on talent in the industry

Many kpop stans do not care about talent but like ro pretend to care to look like they're so smart for being able to criticise an idol's abilities. You're also very right about Mamamoo and Nmixx, they sound so very good. I advice kpop stans to just let themselves be entertained, you do not need to think or say too much. If you don't like what one group gives you, quietly move on to the ones whose abilities you prefer. It's never that deep. You can always unstan quietly. Stop hurting idols with your words when you don't even like to watch them perform.

🤣🤣🤣🤣 we love the self clowning in here (relating to the vid's intro)

Any time people bring this argument up, I point them to what girls in Produce 48 said about how they view being an idol as different to being a singer, and if you want to say "that's just in Japan" then I'll point you to how idol rappers have been treated during Unpretty Rapstar and Show Me The Money. The girls during that show essentially said their belief was that idols are to entertain, not to be perfect vocalists, else all great singers would be idols (and idols who were good singers would just be singers.) Being an idol, unfortunately perhaps, isn't ever really about the singing. It's a business where being marketable is your biggest asset, and a girl with ten years in the business and millions of fans before she's even in your group is a way bigger asset than a nobody who's able to sing well. And even within the second generation, there was so many times you'd hear "Goo Hara isn't talented, Hyoyeon isn't talented." Let's all not act like "Britney Spears isn't able to sing" wasn't a talking point for years. It's the same argument we've been having for years and years and years within the "pop" genre. I also wish some people would seek to watch Sakura before LE SSERAFIM too. The songs are in entirely different styles and ranges than she has been singing for her entire life, even within IZ*ONE most songs were a lot higher and she had short lines. Performing with tens to literally hundreds of fellow idols is very different to performing alongside four members. She has improved MASSIVELY through her idol life and will no doubt keep improving (especially her dance ability) if people give her time to do that.

THE INTRO IS SO GOOD LMFAOOOOOO

That intro is so real 😭 (no offense I love the yap)

About the "what if its a different job" argument I think that it doesn't matter if you're talented at your job, if the company isn't making money you're gonna be fired anyways. In Kpop as an industry profits rule so if people buy albums and concerts tickets then there's nothing wrong. Kpop is more than just stage performances, and sakura's vocal ability isn't making le sserafim sales any lower, so why criticise her lack of talent when her job is doing good, not great, but its doing its purpose that is making money for hybe. Fans can expect a better performance? Yes. But is a good performance the only reason why this industry is so big? No. Is good performance the only reason why people listen to kpop? Also not.

I always say I consider K-pop idols as more recording artists and performers (dance/choreo).

I love NMIXX appreciation 😭👏👏👏

YES they NEED, they are SINGERS

14:20 i think it could be said like that IF this was 2017/2019 when kpop just started being known by the western. But we already have BTS, Blackpink, other idols and even other Asian artist like NIKI or Rich Brian that yes, we need to be taken seriously. I think this argument also came from Korean prideful mentality. I mean there’s a readon why hierarchy is such an important aspect in their social life too

you make an interesting argument, but my feeling is that even beyond one particular idol being "more talented" than someone else, the relentless comparison and endless quest for perfection has caused #someofyall to want everyone to sound exactly the same. its not a question of more or less talent, its about emphasizing uniqueness and embracing differences instead of holding everyone to the same standard. i like sakura's voice! is it technically the most perfect? no! but who gives a fuck! i am drawn to more unique voices, that is what i like, when I can clearly pick out someones voice from the crowd it appeals to me and i am more tuned into them. some of the people criticizing sakura start to sound like they want everyone to belt the exact same way and that would be boring! people sound different its not a competition and everyone needs to relax lmfao

I think now more than ever Kpop fans "feel" kpop is as important; Therefore setting themselves up for failure--- They were idols from the beginning trained to do so, not singers or dancers yet a mixture of both so the line fades as to how talented they need to be in each arena due to subjective outlook. Yet basic singing or the vocal ability of a vocalist should not be overlooked is where I come from--- Sakura doesn't even deliver that and it's not diminishing her other improvements in dance and stage presence. It seems like just with an idol who has a pretty face & likable onscreen persona fans are willing to defend them viciously, while it's not a surprise, it makes the conversation very stunted "shes improved and worked hard", "she never promised to be the best vocal" are regressive generalized and extreme arguments( can be applied for all)

I am more of a casual fan.If Kpop was all about the talent,those same people who say that wouldn't be kpop fans. They would be listening to something like progressive jazz fusion and opera. Let's look at 2nd generation.Since it was because of the talent that it grew. These "all about the talent" people are really going to tell me a song like Gee(one of the greatest kpop songs of all time)is the showcase of pure talent and skill? They going to tell me this is the epitome of vocal and dance ability and skill. If kpop is all about the talent,we should be able look back and analyze every kpop star or potential kpop star and say that only the most talented individuals went to the top.We have to be able to say that no one who was super talented ever got rejected. Also have these " if this were any other job" people ever been out in the real world?

No matter how many excuse you give them. At the end of the day, these idols will still be in their companis studio recording room. They may be idols who do a lot of different ways to promote their career but you do know that when they guess, they're always asked what's in for their music right? No matter how many excuse you give them, as long as they're under a group & an ent company, their job will always lead them to holding a mic & using their voice. Do you see how many variety shows sk have? That's right, majority of them are all about singing compared to dancing. Idols should alwats have the foundation when it comes to vocals.

groups with one lackin aspect have members with fun personalities to make up for it. groups who are all rounders have BORING music and recycled concepts. groups with nothing but personality can survive on clout and nothing else for a good amount of time but if youre an idol that cannot hold a note, cannot keep the beat, and have the personality of a cardboard box, why tf do you expect to be taken seriously 🙄 amazing groups have members like this and these members all by themselves hold everybody else back XD

at the end of the day, i'm not gonna stop liking sakura no matter what ppl say. i like watching her perform and i like listening to her lines in iz*one/lsrfm songs. i get if other kpop stans don't agree but like you were saying towards the end, i mostly see the kpop stans with bully tendencies taking their chance to hate on sakura and act superior to other kpop fans also i think bc i'm a third gen fan, it's normal to me to have weak vocalists in the group. that's why there's main, lead and subs. ofc sub vocalists, especially ones who were also the visual, got hated on for being fillers. but this really isn't some new phenomenon that sakura started, it's not that dramatic

When JLO was boycotted in America because (allegedly) couldn't sing but completely built her career as a singer by using many other people's voice samples without giving credit. Imagine if she was a kpop idol, she probably wouldn't be boycotted like she is now. Because her fans won't hesitate to cover for her because she's pretty and good at dancing and everyone lip-syncs.

As much as I like le sserafim I admit that there vocals aren't that great, they do great as performers but they still need a lot of training. The whole vocal training system of hybe should be criticized. Just because you have a loyal support of the fans don't give you the right to present unpolished vocals and later auto tune the f*** out of it. Otherwise the group from hybe will be known as just someone who gave viral song once upon a time. It hampers the longevity of their career. I myself never defend sakura for her vocals like after 13 years if you still need to learn from the bottom then,with all due respect choose acting/modeling. The top management of hybe should seriously look into their vocals training system, and what are they teaching. They are called idol singers, not idol dancers. If dance is the body then singing is the soul of idol industry.

For sure, these folks should not be shamed or attacked for not being a good singer/dancer/performer. However, should we praise mediocrity, though? Like your profession is to sing/dance/perform you should be able to do that somewhat well. Especially, if you've gone through training. This is looking at both kpop and western pop music, btw.

"artistic groups deserve to be celebrated but not at the cost of putting less talented groups down" THANK YOU!!!!

lol I love the intro, it's so funny It's crazy how people hate on kpop idols as a way of criticism but most of the time they don't really care about the issue at all. they just feel the need to degrade other idols to make their favs look better. Idols should know how to sing! but just bc they can't hold a note doesn't make them less of an artist! being an idol it's much more than singing. Also ,I wish people were more kind. If u don't like an idol, just don't watch them, don't listen to their music, ignore them. If u think ur favs are better then just praise your favs 🙏🙏

The problem with the whole talent Argument for me is, the way we are acting as if there are a limited number of spots that if an idols isnt the best at anything they are taking that spot from somebody more talented who deserved it more. Almost as if the entire industry is a huge survival show

Just watched a bit before bed so sorry if i repeat a point said later, but this is not just Kpop though. Pop and music is also not all about talent or always just about talent. Someone incredibly talented could be niche and relatively unknown while someone with barely half the talent or none at all could be going viral. It's never one dimensional, ever.

Same. I don't get how saying you don't care whether an idol is a good vocalist or not, is disrespectful to artists who put in a lot of effort to sing well. It's a self explanatory statement that people are taking and attaching their own feelings and meanings to. You celebrate both the idols who excel in vocals and those try their best, so it's strange that people are attaching a meaning to what you're saying when thats not your stance. I too take an interest in Kpop as a hobby and find that it's not something to be taken seriously, but unfortunately, it's the nature of the inter-webs and netizens to take things like this too seriously. Having said that, I really commend you on how maturely and professionally you've handled all this. I am learning a lot and from you and the way in which you handle things like this. Great video Chouj, it's as long as my videos are haha! but honestly, it was necessary. Some things require a delicate touch and a lot of explanation, and you did a great job with all of that as always. P.S the epic intro really had me rolling haha! 🤣 I loved it! EXO's Kai is literally one of my absolute favorite vocalist. He may not be a top tear vocalist, but I've always loved that man's voice, so in the intro, when Kai grabs the award, you pretty much said what your stance is on vocals without even saying it. It was Chef's kiss. Keep cookin Chouj!🧑‍🍳 🫶🩵