I have worked with hydrogen production, distribution, storage and transport for 10+ years before I retired so I have an excellent understanding of all aspects of production and use. The main thing to get in your mind is Hydrogen is in itself an energy transport system and nothing more i.e. use energy to produce Hydrogen then transport and extract energy at point of use. Then ask yourself why would you use shall we say electricity to produce green Hydrogen at 57% efficiency then compress and ship to the point of use at another 20% efficiency loss which we now see is a total loss of approx. 77% which means we have a total production efficiency of approx. 23% when you could simply supply the same energy with minimum losses in the original energy form electricity at probably 80+% efficiency. Hydrogen will never be used for home heating because its far to expensive and has far too many difficult property's to make it a useful or safe with an emphasis on the safe. Hydrogen could possibly be used as energy backup storage but it would have to be stored at liquified storage at cryogenic temps to make it feasible but this would be far easier, safer and far cheaper to use/store cryogenic liquid air systems for backup/storage systems. I wont go into hydrogen for transport as the fact that all hydrogen filling stations in the UK have closed after a big explosion/fire on one of the German hydrogen filling systems. Something to bear in mind heat pumps have been used in Japan for 50+ years in air con systems and have just about perfected the engineering side which is also relevant to air/water heat pumps.

Great episode, respect to Oliver for doing this. I do think that he really struggled with aspects of this conversation though, hopefully it has challenged him to look further into the topics discussed. The "we need more fullscale deployment data on hydrogen heating" argument to show that it might hypothetically be better than upcoming heating solutions is seemingly flimsy at best. I do have to say however, his skepticism towards the future of transportation being electric made me think to myself is he for real, or is this a person paid by a declining industry to sow doubt?

What a great episode. Learning so much 🙏🏼

I'm only a consumer so no expert but I agree with you I don't think hydrogen will be used to heat homes maybe some niche uses but you just see the stories from the trial on Ellesmere port and think Nah... Insulate the homes and get the price of electricity down. If you end up with price parity between electricity and hydrogen or gas why use hydrogen or gas. There's not even a need for a heat pump in a house built to the highest standard as they use so little power on heating that the savings don't justify the cost of a heat pump. For the rest of the properties heat pumps for suitable homes and a heat store like a Tepeo for the rest. Until someone can solve the big issues with Hydrogen, the cost to generate, the cost to upgrade the grid, and concerns over emissions from hydrogen appliances(NOx). If people just won't move from a combi-boiler put an electric boiler in if the electricity is cheap enough. I do think you are right there hydrogen as it's a part to play but it's not at the consumer level.

If two people in a room agree on everything, one of them is redundant. That was an interesting discussion.

Its surprising how good the SCOP of the Vaillant running your office is given the building and radiators. With efficiency that high in a less than ideal system/building I really do not see how hydrogen could ever compete for everyday home heating from a cost perspective. Out of interest when the published SCOP for heat pumps is worked out does it include the utilisation of weather compensation to vary the flow temperature throughout the year to maximise efficiency, or is it based on a fixed flow temperature?

Would love more detail/deep dive on the refrigerants - R290? Tell me more? Others are using R32 - or R410?

Interesting debate, I feel some agreement (isolation) between you, but certainly some lack in understanding that heat pumps are evolved into a general solution (certainly for homes) . This week my gas-installer still doubtful of my solution to get away from gas, so seems that this debate also needs to bought to the floor: it's strange that I (consumer) need to tell him how it is done, and how it's economic/environmentally absolutely making sense. How I wished I could hire him to help me in this path, but have to search for (hard to find) others because he is seriously held back (I think by his employer who don't seem to be on board, traditional gas-heater company). H2 could be a solution to flatten the (seasonable) imbalance between demand-supply, where green electricity is turned into H2: and the (updated) grid will feed this back when demand is bigger. Also some specific industry could benefit from the high energy-density, although more and more is done by batteries (busses, trucks, small planes already possible) so not sure if a higher kWh price will be enough reason to search for solution in electrifying. What I find strange is we, as consumers, are thinking/worried how to balance the grid for our home, while the market should do its thing: how it's economical not beneficial to invest in (long/short term) storage to flatten the price of electricity is beyond me. Here glad with my electric heating (A2A), and (as soon as I find installer) my gas is out, not to be replaced by H2.

With regards the point made at 59:43 about academics having papers that repeat each other, that is part of how science works. If independent people doing the same experiment get the same result, you can be more certain that result is real and not an artefact or in error.

A chap in wales built a few houses it cost extra 20k extra for solar panels and heat pump 😎

Heat pump penetration in Wales would max out at 10% unless our stupid planning laws are changed. We have a 3m from boundary rule, which makes practically every home out of scope for heat pump installation.

It all gets so complicated and for what reason. I agree with the comment from Mr Kenenglish1. Hydrogen doesn't lend itself easily to non commercial uses. One of the other comments mentions problems with a German Hydrogen filling station. There was also a case in Norway. There is even a national body that monitors and records Hydrogen accidents. They are not as uncommon as you might think. And from memory something like 40 % result in an explosion or explosive type fire ball. Given that it is stored under great pressure and ignites very easily. Green electricity is a much better solution. But instead of working on that they pratt about with all sorts of non starters. And waste money. My own house. I generate most of my own electricity. I only use electricity to cool, heat. Cook and heat hot water. No emissions. No radiators. Simple and pretty cheap. If the government could provide cheap green electricity to the masses. Which I reckon would be much easier and cheaper to do than anything else. That would be problem solved.

There are some areas in Scotland where it reaches -20 or lower. Surely designing a heat pump system that can heat a house to 21°c and supply hot water when it's less than -20 outside would be massively oversized for 2/3rd of the year.

Having a Hydrogen Tap in your home for filling your very own Zeppelin is a rocking idea ! On one hand maybe Saudi Arabia will full fill its dream for making unlimited super cheap H2 from pv . On the other 2.5 % of all fossil CO2 is emitted while making H2 today ( for fertilizer & other uses) . We need more than the total global installed wind power to make green H2 for that demand. before we start decarbonizing everything else with h2.

4.5p to the end user is impressively optimistic!?

Hello Heat Geek! Ive found myself in a very strange situation, and i dont know what to do, please advise as much as you possibly can)(if possible) we have been approached for the new Eco7 scheme, where we have a company offering to install solar panels and a heat pump for free and they say they will return the house to its original state after they have finished the work. We feel like its a scam, and im trying to piece together (through your videos) if it is or not. But i have mental health issues and am struggling to learn all the things required to learn in such a short space of time (within 24 hours) since they did the survey in october and then just rang us to arrive wednesday to start the work immediatly, even though we feel like they havent spoken to, or consulted us on any of the basic questions we may have. Also they havent written up a contract. I think this sounds very dodgy, but also dont want to miss out incase its an amazing opportunity! Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!! 🤗

Chinese Honda-copy engine running the compressor on a heat pump (just like small engines run compressors for refrigerated trucks), then recover the waste exhaust and engine cooling heat and shove that heat into the evaporator side...

Is it possible to develop hydrogen boilers with internal electrolysers? If so we wouldn’t need to spend £130bil upgrading the gas grid to hydrogen as the boiler would only need to be supplied by water and electricity. Would it also be possible for those specific industries to produce on-site hydrogen? It’ll be a significant cost but far less then the £130bil, and the government may even be able to provide them some financial support. Although that being said it’s unlikely it would be used for any type of heating. Even the 1% that wouldn’t be suitable for a heat pump, would they not opt for a high temp heat pump? I’ve read that they can still achieve a SCOP of 200%-250%, a far higher efficiency then hydrogen. Southern Territory recently invested a considerable amount of money into battery storage and it’s working pretty well, so I’m fairly sure battery tech is already there. Hence why hydrogen storage probably won’t be utilised for electricity generation. And I’m pretty certain battery storage is cheaper and more efficient then hydrogen stores. I’m aware you’re not a fan of green gas and we’ll never produce enough for heating but it may be more economical to utilise it in these specific industries where hydrogen’s being looked at as a long term option.

Cement production uses masses of energy!

everyone talks that heat pumps are the next step like a number of non piped northern climates housing in europe, but with that tranition people are forgetting the reason why so many are still pushing for hydrogen, right now whether it be gas , the majority of industry need to cook whether it be to dry car paint quickly, make bread process organic materials bake rice, to mine concrete materials or pressure treat woods you can't do that with a heat pump, and to do it via electric heating would require huge amounts of electricity than what we are currently producing, that cannot come from green resources', heck even the green resource's need baking of some form by gas for production. the net zero plan is just unworkable unless we ship most manufacturing abroad which will have devastating effects on jobs and businesses further down the line, for generations uk housing was setup for heat only systems but modern housing just lacks the space half of them don't even have a airing cupboard for the tank, the majority are set up for combi space only. you can't make room out of no where. further to this the majority of production is abroad for this equipment, we have to develop leading products locally than internationally without it we loose a generation of engineers that just will not be lost. the schooling system is a mess and isn't set up to train let alone fill the replacements

There is a massive attempt to derail the green transition !

Not listened to all of this yet so maybe shouldn't comment. But. Rather than discuss efficiency of hydrogen which is well known to be poor, what about add in the cost of infrastructure upgrading. By the time all the pipes in the street are hydrogen ready, 2050 will be upon us and many will have already switched to heat pump or bought a new build house with a heat pump already fitted. The only scenario I can see hydrogen for domestic heating is to replace private LPG tanks (already the most expensive heating). This would be in old and very large houses where heat pump may not be practical, ie. insufficient electrical supply available for heat pump. What about synthetic methane ?. Probably could use current gas grid and boilers. Mix it up with Ecotricity grass gas in the gas grid. Possibly improve carbon capture beyond its current poor level to get the CO2. Much easier to store seasonally to cover winter shortages when needed. Everyone needs to remember is it NET zero, not complete zero. Excess of renewables in summer via solar or when very windy in winter, and then burn some stuff in winter when needed.

Why would you turn excess electricity into hydrogen to store it & then turn it back into electricity rather than just put the excess electricity into batteries, makes no sense !

Strange....it's almost like he had some kind of hidden agenda that was informing his opinions.

This is a really awkward interview. It's as if he's ashamed about being pro hydrogen for heating, knows it's a terrible idea, but he's in too deep and just needs to keep peddling the rhetoric.