Motogadget m-Switch - Revival Cycles Tech Talk

Рет қаралды 164,105

9 жыл бұрын

Please visit our technical articles for detailed wiring diagrams, troubleshooting guides, and instructions for installing your Motogadget accessories like the m-Switch!
technicalarticles.revivalcycl...
Stefan showcases the different Motogadget m-Switch options available for your custom motorcycle project in this Revival Cycles Tech Talk. The m-Switch is the best option we've found for replacing stock motorcycle switches on your machine,
For more detail, see the Motogadget m-Switch 2-button and 3-button options: revivalcycles.com/products/mot...
m-Switch Mini: revivalcycles.com/products/mot...
Push Button Kit: revivalcycles.com/products/pus...
Billet Push-Button Switch: revivalcycles.com/products/bil...
//
Revival Cycles is the balance of passion and pragmatism. It is our belief that the motorcycle should be more than a machine; it is an aesthetic expression that demonstrates the beauty of purposeful form. It is not enough to simply have a mechanically adequate machine that ignores the visual form. To be truly remarkable requires something more: the seamless blending of visual design with technical excellence. When these elements come together with just the right mix, the result is as much fun to ride as it is to behold. At Revival Cycles, we believe a motorcycle should thrill and excite even before the first crackling rumble of an open exhaust.
Motorcycles are our passion, and we are here to support this passion in our fellow riders. It doesn’t matter what you ride, it doesn't even matter if you do not have a two-wheeled machine of your own (yet). The only thing that matters is that you have passion for motorcycles and separating from the masses. We are more than a repair shop, more than a custom motorcycle shop and more than a place to get gear. We are a cultural center for motorcyclists.
#revivalcycles
#techtalk
#motonerd

Пікірлер: 98

@goodcrymusic 2 жыл бұрын

Some people will never truly understand having to grind through endless forum posts trying to find some sort of a technical answer to a problem, and only getting grainy pictures and an incomplete walkthrough. The content you put out is invaluable for all of us working alone. Thank you!

@RevivalCycles 2 жыл бұрын

We really appreciate that sentiment. I've spent untold hours myself sifting through bad advice on forums to find that one Greybeard with the knowledge, patience and willingness to share what he knows.

@JP-gd1ln Жыл бұрын

Yeah but doesn't a small part of you miss the endless searching and weeding through previously asked and answered questions and macho dog sizing shit talking competitions to finally find the info you were searching for posted by a legend on the forum that not only actually knew what they were talking about but also was a stand in internet mentor to thousands of young gear heads with fathers that didn't know how to start a lawn mower lol

@JP-gd1ln Жыл бұрын

@@RevivalCycles that one "graybeard" lol perfect terminology 🤙

@Demoni696 8 жыл бұрын

Thanks for taking the time to do an review on these switches. Been looking at running Motogadget electronics on an bike project this video was very helpful!

@Crunklefloop 7 жыл бұрын

I've just stumbled across this channel, you do some truly amazing work, really inspiring!

@SkyCandyDigitalCinema 8 жыл бұрын

"underwater" lol. Loved your review mate.

@dieselbiker0528 6 жыл бұрын

You guys have made the wiring side of my bike not so goddamn scary, so fucking happy I found your channel 👌👌

@SaturdaysWrench 8 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Love Tech Talk!!

@GilCurado7 2 жыл бұрын

Men... you are funny, love your jokes and the way you explane things. Thanks bro and kipp up the good work.

@emina1chopper 8 жыл бұрын

Hi. Is there any videos on how to install the m-switch? For example how and where to drill holes on clip on handle bar.

@AxelTuda 4 жыл бұрын

Great review. Helpful for those of us wanting to install such gadgets

@richardvanraay2011 4 жыл бұрын

Great, informative , thanks. To be picky it is not 1 . o . O is a letter. It is 1.zero mm thread. Looks great,thanks.

@thompa1471 8 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@ShadowBoxer 8 жыл бұрын

Very interesting and I just might give you a call. Maybe after the new year when I'm done buying stuff for everyone else! o_0 : ) I work in Film & Video. A little pro-tip/ tech-talk from me to you; If you shoot the talk with two or even three cameras, one looking at you from the front and another one from the side, plus maybe a dedicated close-up camera you should be able to get more meaningful close-ups from cameras 2 & 3 that will edit together with your master wide shot from the front. And you only need to go through the talk once or twice. Inserting stills that show details is also good. I do appreciate the look at the installed switches on an actual bike.

@jan6553112257665 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the nice video. Wich accelerator throttle are using in combination with the mswitch mini? (to get a nice clean look) Best regards from Germany

@robertstenang2914 Жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks for the great informative videos. I like the looks of these smaller set of 3 switches, but they look like they would be hard to use when having thick gloves in cold weather. Have you tried them with thicker gloves?

@yagami41 3 ай бұрын

they look very pretty

@Bedoya88ebg 4 жыл бұрын

Hi, I need one for turn lights, what do you recomend me?

@Alpha-iu2ny 2 жыл бұрын

Wow the video looks so sharp to be 6 years old .

@mickaelfreitas7292 4 жыл бұрын

About the singular button. If i just press one time, e still closed or i need press constantly to keep it closed?

@jessegroepenhoff8083 3 жыл бұрын

What is the throttle u are using on the handlebars. Is it a domino Rally?

@JoshTelm115 3 жыл бұрын

Hey :) Thank you for the great info you guys are sharing! I was wondering is it 1,5mm section wire you use for the grounding? And then which section you use to run them together to the ground? Can’t find it by googling... Many thanks!

@RevivalCycles 3 жыл бұрын

In the workshop and the wire kits we produce we use 22 AWG which is the equivalent of 0.34 mm2. When we splice them together we use the same gauge wire for the main return wire. Since there is no current in the switches you can use wire as small as you can manage. We've found that 22 AWG is still quite compact but easy enough to work with.

@PP-qx6ss 6 ай бұрын

Need to see the bike walk around

@AZ-qn3xq Ай бұрын

Hello, 1982 honda CB450, I have 3 cables on start button, one of them turn off headlight! but you have only 2 connections! How can I install it? Do you have some suggestion? Thank you!

@Kash_Moto 7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the video, always very helpful! One question: Would I be able to run the m-switch without the use of the m-unit? If so, can the switch be used as a ignition kill switch? Thanks again!

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

The m-Switches are momentary contact only, and that makes it difficult to use them without the m-Unit. It is possible, but generally that is not how we do it. There is also the issue of the rated current, and these switches are really only rated for signal level current, and should not be used to directly power devices. If you wanted to use them to control a device without an m-Unit, we advise using a relay in combination with the switch.

@millypie3046 6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your videos, they have helped me out a great deal so far, I have just purchased the m unit and the m button, but.... I'm running 7/8 bars that aren't drilled (inch drilled bars in the UK are not common and drilling 7/8 is frowned upon even more so that they are aluminium) is there any handlebar switch on the market like the motogadget m-switch that doesn't run through bars? Thank you

@RevivalCycles 6 жыл бұрын

Is there a specific issue with drilling 7/8" ? We do this all the time and there is no problem from a structural standpoint. Although the bars may be made of aluminum they are typically much thicker than their steel counterparts which actually makes them stronger than the steel ones. With all the bars we've drilled we have never seen a single failure at the drill point. There are several switches that don't require drilling, and it is also quite easy to modify the m-Switch housings to allow the wires to exit the housing and not go into the bars. Just use a 1/4" round file and make a notch for the wires to exit. It takes a few minutes and you need to be careful not to slip and scratch the rest of the housing, but it can be done.

@josephbergin7017 4 жыл бұрын

Great videos guys . Could you do a video of say removing the original factory switch gear , lights, indicators etc and replacing with the m switches

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

We've got some switch install videos in the works I'll take note of those details.

@jncolligan1 4 жыл бұрын

I second this wish! I just finished a jvb moto mt super 7 conversion on my 2019 MT 07 and this is exactly what I want to really finish it! Can’t believe how KZfaq just finds the answer for you and dishes it up! I’m just worried the modern wiring is too over-elaborated to take it back to this simplicity :(

@jncolligan1 4 жыл бұрын

Wow! Just went to your website, you guys are in it to win it in this space! I live in Edinburgh, but when I’m next down south can’t wait to pay you a visit. Also found just the article ‘not’ to solve my problem’ but to confirm I should have some healthy respect for it!!! “Replacing OEM Latching Switches with Momentary Buttons Without Using an m.Unit (mo.Unit)”. I now need to do some soul searching to prepare for this next leap! As you can imagine, changing stuff on your bike feels like swinging from vine to vine not knowing if you need to retreat back to stock cuz it just won’t work! :)

@zeyaobaidi2201 Жыл бұрын

I took my bike into the shop for a new clutch cord but when I got it back the 3rd button on my m switch mini wouldn’t click and the horn stopped working. It smelled like burnt hair. Any help?

@JASPACB750RR Жыл бұрын

I never run a ground through bearings. Been proven to cause problems with bearing life. Granted that’s in larger voltage systems, but still wouldn’t do it. You’re already running wires out, splicing the 3 grounds together and running a 4th wire (ground) isn’t adding too much to the overall run. Especially if you run internal bar wiring from that switch.

@SaturdaysWrench 8 жыл бұрын

I have a question about the M-Switch Mini & the M-unit V2. I am planning to run both components. It is my understanding that the "Start" button not only starts the engine but if you hold it down for a few seconds it will also act as a kill switch. Is this true? Do I need any sort of special relay for this to work since the current capacity on the buttons is so small?? Keep in mind I am going right from the push button to the m-button then m-button to 'config' in m-unit. I am confused about where the output would go.. Hoping you could shed some light. Thanks!

@RevivalCycles 8 жыл бұрын

It is true that the start button can be used to start the bike AND as a kill switch, but the way it works is a little different than your understanding. Press and hold will engage the starter, but a double click, like a double click on a computer mouse will de-activate the AUX output which turns off the ignition system, acting as a kill switch. As long as you are using the m-Switches on the input side of the m-Unit or m-Button they do not need any type of relay. With the m-Button and m-Unit, the only electricity is at a signal level and that means there is very little current flow and it is really just sensing voltage. With the setup you are talking about, m-Switch to m-Button to m-Unit the connections are as follows: m-Switch - black AND red to ground, then the white, green and yellow connect to m-Button depending on which function you want applied to which switch. m-Button - Black wire to ground (bad grounds are the most common cause of problems with these systems) Then follow the labels for the other wires and connect them to the white, green, and yellow of the m-Switches. Lastly connect the green wire labeled config to the config of m-Unit m-Unit - Connect power and ground to m-Unit. Setup a key switch, toggle switch, or m-Lock to give +12V to the lock input to turn the m-Unit on. Then the outputs are wired directly to the devices you want to power, no output wires go to the m-Button or m-Switches. If you have more detailed questions, it is best to email techsupport@revivalcycles.com

@SaturdaysWrench 8 жыл бұрын

Seriously, this is very helpful! I had a feeling this would work.Thanks for explaining how the kill switch function works, that's incredible. I forgot that it is a double click, I read the manual about a month ago and have been getting held back waiting for parts to finish the project so the info was a bit fuzzy. Again, I really appreciate you guys answering my questions and will be sure to mention your shop to my viewers in an upcoming episode here on youtube. Keep doing what you guys are doing, it's awesome for the community. --Tony

@oneorangedog 6 жыл бұрын

Hi, is it possible to use any momentary switch for the [above] starter/kill functionality? I am using 2 x 2 m-switches on the left side, but just wanted a single switch on the right for starter/kill switch - so I plan to use a triumph horn switch [www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-HORN-BUTTON-SCREW-IN-TYPE-SPX025-OE-NO-2676207A/152850207229?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649] Thanks.

@rupertpupkin92 7 жыл бұрын

Do you find the buttons on the m.switch mini too small and hard to push correctly or are they fine? I'm debating whether to get the mini or the standard m.switch. I guess you get used to them but they do look small, especially with gloves on.

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

I find they work well, and the only time gloves really get in the way is if you are using cold weather gloves with a lot of lining. Normal leather street gloves or race gloves work just fine. But I also don't use the buttons much when riding, rarely use turn signals (don't believe in them and still use hand signals)

@laurinpetrovic8730 7 жыл бұрын

hey, how do you use the m switch for the turning lights? up is left and down is right? or is there a better switch for my needs? greets from austria

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

The m-Switches can be setup in many different ways, normally they are used to control an m-Unit and that is what is actually switching the power for the various devices. The m-Swithces are just used to send signals to the m-Unit. On our builds we usually have the turn signal controls in the middle switch position, left on the left handlebar, and right on the right handlebar. But this is really up to you.

@gregm784 4 жыл бұрын

How are mini switches with winter gloves on (like a lined leather glove)? easy to pick up by feel? Can you tell when you activate the switch (click/snap/etc)? thanks. Love the videos!

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

I was concerned about that myself but what I've found is that the high dome pierces through a glove so that you can still locate the button and they provide a clear tactile response when pressed that can be felt through a glove, or my gloves anyway.

@gregm784 4 жыл бұрын

@@RevivalCycles Thanks man. Great videos. I appreciate the answer on the older video. I've got a case of the M-Unit Blue wants. :)

@Battshimself 7 жыл бұрын

if you use these without the m unit can you still use these as a on and off for turn signals without having to hold the button down? and do you plan on doing a video for the new 3 button switch??

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

These are all momentary push button switches, they will not stay on unless they are being held down. Some bikes have systems that work this way, most do not. There are a couple of modules out there that can make the conversion from momentary to latching, but by the time you add up the cost it not much cheaper than getting an m-Unit. It is however a bit less effort to do the install, but the trade off is that you don't get any of the other benefits of the m-Unit.

@craiggregory967 4 жыл бұрын

Great video!! Can the M Switch be used with the M unit on a 6 volt system?

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! The m.Unit and switches will work on a 6 volt system

@Flosh007 5 жыл бұрын

I have a question about the compact switch button. You would have to thread your bar for these ones but once you screw them in, won't it be bad for the attached wires that will be twisted also? Or am I missing something?

@RevivalCycles 5 жыл бұрын

In the case of the switches that get threaded into the bars, the approach we use is to wind the wires up the wrong way first before starting to thread in. That way as you thread the switch in, it is unwinding the wires. With some practice you can get it so the wires have very little twist , but the bigger issue is that the solder terminals stick out and on 7/8" bars it is a very tight fit. This technique is not the preferred method for maximum robustness, but it is great for making super clean cockpit controls. Like many things, there are trade offs. Super clean, but fussy install, and potential for problems down the road. But we've done this several times, and with careful installs we haven't had any issues yet.

@alexking2694 6 жыл бұрын

Do you drill one hole at the centre of the handlebars for the cables? How many holes (and how big?) can you drill before making the handlebars unsafe? Thanks

@RevivalCycles 6 жыл бұрын

There isn't really a rule of thumb for this, because it really depends on too many variables like what size bars you have, what material they are made of, where the holes are located, and how heavy the bike is. That said, a single 3/8" hole virtually anywhere along the bars will not cause a problem, and that should be large enough for wire exits including rubber grommets. If you need multiple holes keep them lined up along the axis of the bars, don't stack them around the diameter of the bars. The strength of the bars is determined by the cross section so you really just need to avoid having more than one hole around the same cross section.

@y4Nagado 2 жыл бұрын

what do you think of using switch toggle "on/centre-off/on" type for turn signals ?

@RevivalCycles 2 жыл бұрын

One of the reasons we don't use them in this application is because these momentary switches work off of a ground signal, running them off of that signal makes it easier to use smaller and more discrete buttons and wires, for that matter. These type of buttons/switches are used exclusively with the Moto Gadget M-Unit because the M-Unit requires a momentary ground input signal, a latching signal will not work. Now, when using a regular voltage signal (+12v) you can use a latching switch, typical to a stock setup. The reason we don't typically use them is because when using these types of buttons/switches with a voltage signal they are A) not as user friendly as we'd like. When riding, the easier the button functions are to use the easier it is to pay attention to the road and B) It's not very easy to find small latching switches rated for this use.

@ChristianEldridge 7 жыл бұрын

Hi Revival Cycles, I am running m-Switch on my clip-ons but unsure how to route the wiring? The Clip-ons are solid so there doesn't seem to be a way to drill them and route them through the centre? The top yoke and clip-ons are originally from an Aprilia RS 125 R. ANy help and guidance much appreciated.

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

This is a bit of a tricky situation, and depending on which m-Switches you have (standard or mini) there are a few different solutions to the problem. If you are using the standard m-Switches it is pretty easy to use a 1/4 inch round file to file a notch in to the side of the switch housing for the wires to exit. BUT if you are using the m-Switch minis it is much more difficult to modify the housing. This is the type of problem we run into on custom builds, where a specific combination of parts doesn't work because of some minor detail and one of the parts is unusually designed. The solution to these issues is part of what makes building bikes a challenge. Solving this will depend on what skills tools and experience you have available.

@ChristianEldridge 7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reply Revival Cycles. I've been working out a solution and I've decided to cut down the original clip-ons, machine down the diameter and slide on a hollow bar. I'll either bolt through or TIG weld it for strength. Tjis way I'll be able to conceal the wires and keep the bars as clean as possible.

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

Awesome, that sounds like it will work well, and it sounds like you've got the skills and equipment to handle this no problem.

@Boobtube. 7 жыл бұрын

the 2 and 3 switch units.(first type you went over) How do you run the wires? must you drill hole in bars, or can they be ran outside the bars?

@RevivalCycles 7 жыл бұрын

These are designed to run the wires inside the bars, however, we have made modifications to the switch housings to allow the wires to run external. The way we did the modification was to use a 1/4" round file and just file a notch where we wanted to the wires to exit. Also, it is very easy to make this modification if you have a milling machine, just run a 1/4" ball end mill through in the location you want the wires to pass.

@Boobtube. 7 жыл бұрын

ok, thanks. Looks like a little filing is in my future.

@2limbo 4 жыл бұрын

I am trying to find that single-switch kit. Any link available? THANK YOU!

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

Here you go shop.revivalcycles.com/push-button-kit/

@romfordwisp 5 жыл бұрын

I can't understand why these gadgets are only sold as MOMENTARY switches? What could you use them for apart from start button and horn. If i was to run indicators with these you would have to hold the button ON to make the indi's work whilst using the clutch lever etc not very convenient. is this correct?

@rich.dodd1 3 жыл бұрын

Old comment but someone else might want to know. If you use a relay each press will either turn them on or off, you wouldn't have to hold them. The only time this would apply is if the indicator was wired directly to the switch, no relay, then you would have to hold them.

@shermandsouza 6 жыл бұрын

How do you dress the ends of your wires when screwing them into these switches? I tries using wire end ferrules but there is no room for any strain relief, so the end just keeps breaking off...so I have just gone in bare wire and I hope it does not break off in the future :)

@RevivalCycles 6 жыл бұрын

This is always a challenge, and we have tried it with the ferrules but that doesn't work well. The best technique I have found is to just go with a very short stripped section of wire and then "Tin" just the very end of it so there is a solid section for the screw to clamp. Then it gets bent at 90 degrees so the wires can exit straight out of the switch. This is always a compromise and we haven't found a better way to deal with it yet. The other tip for working with these switches is to give them several turns the wrong way first before starting to thread them in to the housing. That way as you start to thread them, they un wind and you end up with less twisting in the wires after they are threaded in.

@shermandsouza 6 жыл бұрын

Revival Cycles thanks so much. I will leave it for now since I finally managed to get it all done (what a pita it was). If they break, I have enough slack to try again :)

@jonahmiller1042 6 жыл бұрын

Is this what was used in the m-blaze disc turn signal demonstration?

@RevivalCycles 6 жыл бұрын

If you are referring to the bar switches on the bean then yes, those were standard 3 button m-Switches, but I'm not sure we used any other switches in the m-Blaze video.

@faizankhatri2895 5 жыл бұрын

In Order to install m-switch is m-unit necessary. Can m- switch be uses in a bike with no m-unit?

@RevivalCycles 5 жыл бұрын

These switches can be used without an m-Unit, but on a traditionally wired bike you would have to also add relays or some other type of device. The m-Switch has an amp rating of about 3 amps, and the m-Switch mini has a rating of 0.15 amps both are very low and should not be used to power devices directly. Also these are only momentary switches so there is no way to latch the switch for use with a high / low beam or kill switch. However, there are devices like the m-Relay+(shop.revivalcycles.com/motogadget-m-relay-plus/ ) and NSC-01 (shop.revivalcycles.com/nsc-01-momentary-to-latching-switch-module/ ) that make it easier to use these switches on conventional bikes without m-Units.

@sashaulyanov5175 8 жыл бұрын

is it way available to use this switches without m-unit?

@RevivalCycles 8 жыл бұрын

+Sasha Magwhy This depends on what you are trying to do with the switch. The details of how much current will be carried through the switch is very important, as is the fact they are push buttons... meaning they are only "on" when the button is being held, this works great with the m-Unit, but not really with conventional bikes. Most Japanese bikes use a toggle type switch for the headlight and turn signals. Email techsupport@revivalcycles.com if you'd like more details on your application.

@Michael-99022 4 жыл бұрын

What is the thread of that tiny screw on the terminal side? i dropped mine :(

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

That is a good question and I'm not actually sure. I don't have a tool to measure threads that small. If you reach out to the guys at orders@revivalcycles.com they will be able to help you source one.

@sataniclumberjack2 8 ай бұрын

Can these switches be used as a kill switch

@RevivalCycles 7 ай бұрын

These are momentary switches, they can be used as a kill switch if A) you are using an M-Unit B) you have a magneto ignition C) you use a relay to make them operate as a latching switch

@ssamotorsfinland 4 жыл бұрын

Do Motogadged have red swith for kill

@RevivalCycles 4 жыл бұрын

None of the Motogadget switches have a red, colored switch to indicate the kill switch. Most often people use the setting that allows the start button double as the kill with a double tap.

@teddycustumz3267 Жыл бұрын

what kind of ducati was that?????

@RevivalCycles Жыл бұрын

That's our custom Ducati, "Pyro". Built off of a 2006 Sport Classic platform. revivalcycles.com/blogs/revival-build-bio/ducati-pyro

@Rodiariega 3 жыл бұрын

Would love to see you eat soup..... Hell anything 😂. That's a manly beard!

@LlamaNomaNinja 4 жыл бұрын

those switches are so nice, but the price on them is really high, $100 for a little switch? seems awfully high for what it is.

@remigianessi1 8 жыл бұрын

Hello Incline your camera most of your objects Thank you

@69HotRabbit69 5 жыл бұрын

not working underwater ?? damn i will have to cancel my cafe racer meet in the atlantis :/

@steveparker3936 6 жыл бұрын

HIS HEAD IS ON UPSIDE DOWN!

@c0mputer 7 жыл бұрын

If I had your beard I'd keep Motogadget products in it.

@ricardodiaz8719 5 жыл бұрын

Hahahaha u piece of shit

@erikestrada2286 5 жыл бұрын

Those stuffs are better on close up all the time; they are more important than the beard.

@JP-gd1ln Жыл бұрын

That solid state switching device that doesn't exist yet is called the Kaizen Relay Available at and designed by Kaizen Speed Designed to directly replace any standard relay in your vehicle, the Kaizen Relay is weather resistant and allows additional Kaizen Relays to directly connect together and be instantly powered up using our patent pending interlock design. The interlocking connections on the side also allow our Control Module to attach and instantly convert a standard Kaizen Relay to a CAN triggering relay complete with programmable inputs and outputs High-current solid-state relay with over current and over temperature protection Allows additional relays to be connected and powered up instantly Capable of high frequency switching at full capacity Good for huge radiator fans, fuel pumps, nitrous solenoids, heavy current light bars, trans brakes, line locks, electric water pumps and nearly anything else you need to power. CAN enabled Control Module is available separately

@JP-gd1ln Жыл бұрын

Should mention is design and sold with cars in mind as a cheaper alternative to going full PDM setup costing thousands of dollars while being a step above conventional relays but with its built in features that would seem to make it 2 wheel friendly don't see why it wouldn't work just as well on a bike as they do on cars. At about 100ish a pop pretty killer bang for buck and tech that hasn't really been improved on for decades until now.