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Paving New Paths deserve tremendous credit for their part in brining this to the attention of the Manufacturers and the RV consumers. Although I suspect the Manufacturers already knew about the "frame issues" with or without "contributing factors" such as weight and bad roads. Sad!

Kevin and Alecia from Paving New Paths (you tubers) are having major issues with this frame flex and Grand Design refuses to help them and won't even talk to them!

Wow, I can smell the BS coming off that grand design statement.

My wife wanted a 5th wheel camper, but I told her I will agree to get what we previously had, but no RV. After I explained my reasoning, she agreed 100%. RV's are built as cheap as they can build them, questionable structure and questionable axle ratings. A few years ago, we had a 42' living quarters 4-horse trailer with slide-outs. All welded aluminum frame, all aluminum exterior skin and the floor from front to rear was extruded interlocked aluminum (no wood except cabinets and wall covering). The only steel was the gooseneck, electric jacks and torsion axles. Built to haul (4) 1,000+ lb horses. We used that trailer many times camping at campgrounds without horses. Could fold in the tack room and use the back as a toy hauler. We pulled that trailer all over NC, VA and TN mountains for a few years, most of the time was towing 2 horses and on occasion 3 or 4. I pulled it from western TN to central NC to get home and see that my wife accidentally left a cup half full of drink on the kitchen countertop, that cup was still on the counter and not a drop of drink was on the counter, which says a lot for torsion axles and a well-built trailer. Of the many thousands of miles I towed that trailer and the countless nights camping, I never had to repair anything. I just done annual maintenance on hubs and brakes, we used it year-around. The difference in the living quarters horse trailer that has all the amenities as the RV and the RV, is the horse trailer is designed and built to haul weight. Just like the guy said, RV manufacturers should be regulated. And there should be 3rd party inspectors at the manufacturer to inspect the structure, welds and electrical.

Somehow you should talk to paving new paths about there frame and how they was treated by grand design

Thanks so much for covering this Really appreciate all you guys do to keep us informed. Sure hope the Paving New Paths channel hears about this. They have been through a lot and not treated very well by Grand Design. You guys are really awesome!

Grand designs off my list! They said they’re gonna be different but when rubber meets the road talks cheap, not backing up what they said they would do, be the best customer service fifth wheel company out there.

Grand Design pulled off a great marketing scheme for years, convincing rv buyers with their content creator partners that they were different and producing a higher quality product than competitors. When we were shopping for our first rv it was our assumption they were the best and what we were told by several dealers. In looking at the units on the lots however, it didnt add up. We went a different route and have been happy with that choice. Friends of ours ended up with a Grand Design, and I was shocked at the poor quality and cheap components. Their very first trip with us they had broken fenders, thin baggage door trim that was already mangled despite the ones on our 2 year old rig looking like new after extensive use. Their entry door would not even close and latch unless the rig was sitting just right (an indicator of flex imo). I hope for all the disenchanted owners that Grand Design does the right thing, but their response so far hasn’t been promising. At least prospective buyers now have the real full picture on their deception.

Problem is GD didn't own up to anything. They deflected. They know what they are doing. Bean counters saw a way to fatten their bottom line by over building on frames and using inadequate suspension setups. I can't blame Lippert here as they build the frames to GD's supplied specs, which is probably to the cheapest possible standard. Then GD says "ehhh..we think that frame can hold a couple thousand extra pounds". This is what you get. One of these failed units should be sent to an independent structural engineer for analysis. And it's not end user overloading them. One of them had a broken frame on the way home from the dealer. Brand new unit, nothing in it, 100% as it came from the factory.

Saw the videos from Paving New Paths and their reports on how they were treated by the manufacturer. I’ve had issues with our two new travel trailers - one a Little Guy Max and the other a Keystone Cougar 22MLS. Both manufacturer’s were responsive to our concerns and addressed requested repairs. Given these videos, we will never purchase a Grand Design if we upgrade again in the future. I had a Toyota Tacoma with a rotting frame… Toyota stood by their product and made it right!

That "RV tech" actually thought the Camper would be fully supported with the pinbox on those two poles? Clearly, there was excessive flex before it fell over, but this is not how you test it.

I have said this on another video about government regulating the RV industry. As a retired Minnesota legislator, I’m telling you be careful what you ask for. Government does nothing measured. It grows and grows with regulations. Annual inspections and increased costs for RV owners are the least worries. In time, the EPA, DOT, and other agencies will start telling you when, where, and how you can RV. The reason Grand Design has responded is because of consumer pressure. I’m guessing their bottom line is being affected. That’s a better way to make change happen! Not more government.

The statement issued by Grand Design is lawyereze lingo, they are doing their best to cover their asses! The attempt here is to get out in front of the class action lawsuits coming their way! Everybody whose experiencing these issues must file a complaint with the NHTSA (National Highway and Transportation Safety Agency)and get all these issues out in the public and governmental agencies view. Only then will the manufacturers get off their asses and resolve these issues with their customers.

When we narrowed down our search in fall of 2021, Frame failure was a problem with the Montana rigs so we removed them completely of the radar. You would have thought that with one brand having issues that other brands would want to correct before they too had issues. No manufacturers really care though in my opinion.

Went to the Moses lake RV show last weekend with the series intention of buying a Momentum. Thankfully, I learned about frame flex a day or two before the show. Needless to say, I did not leave the show with a new Momentum.

Popcorn on hand…..sorry to see Greg Bought another GD

Can you get a hold of @Paving new paths. They have the same issue. Feel bad for them!

WOW! Thanks for this information!

Hi Tom, I’ve been watching you and other KZfaq talking about “Frame Flex”. You’re right, this is not consumer fault. This is manufacturer fault for cheaping out on their customers. You don’t see automobiles frames cracking or big semi-tracks frames cracking or our trucks doing their job towing these fifth wheel down the road, framing bending, welds coming loose. What is it going to take RV manufacturer and Frame manufacturer stop messing around and take responsible and politicking with RV customers whom paid 10000 of dollars to 100000s of dollars, playing with our life’s. I hope and pray that a family driving down a road and don’t see a their 5th wheel is coming a apart at the seams and seeing walls & debris as the driver sees in his review mirror, of course is fictitious for the time being. What prevention are the RV manufacturer going to take before to a head… RV Owner, Doug

Excellent work and interviews....this industry needs major reform!!

Does Grand Design list the models that are affected? Is all manufacturing years? Is there a length where they show there has been no frame flex?

Very informative video... thanks for posting

Thank you LizAmazing

All the hand movement reminds me of the weather girl 😂

Keep up reporting the truth on this issue. RV Manufactures need to be held accountable. The industry needs regulation bad!!!!

Man, tipping that thing off those props under the pin box…. Seems lucky the side load when it landed didn’t buckle the landing legs.

Lippert is blameiing the owners as well as GD. If you're a 2'nd owner, you''re screwed! Looks like they're grearing up for a big legal fight. You may very well end up holding that "hot- potato"!

My girlfriend and I have been looking at GD models and was ready to buy a 399th and with the way GD has treated there customers we are going with the brinkley toy hauler it's more money but better built and have done a lot of testing and now use the geny on the new fifth wheels

will Lippert put out a list of approved pin boxes? it should be given when purchasing a 5th wheel.. ours came with a MorRyde pin box there is also an issue with frame camber on the larger units

Looked hard at grand design in 2020 , hlad i went differant route , love ur vontent keep it up

Was at big tent in Az in January and walked out on a deal because of GD not waiting to extend any Warranty and no service center's inSo Ca.

Great video

good information.

Good luck sir…should probably reinstall the oem pin box!

Tom I have a grand design reflection 36 ft do you think that this model is of the frame problem I want you to know I’ve been following you for a long time, and I appreciate your channel greatly and I’ve learned so much from you Sir, thank you for what you do and helping guys like me Thank You my FRIEND Dennis Hall Knoxville Tn

If you end up having frame flights, do you think it could have started when you first got the credit trailer and fell off its bedwheel?Because sometimes the sidewalls have tied to the frame to make it strong

Thanks i the in house frame from Northwood

Tom this whole issue could have been fixed 40 years ago by putting shocks on the axles also rubber isolaters between the frame and body of the rv and also putting re enforcement panels over top of where the slide outs come in and out because harmonic vibrations over time are what cause these structural problems and rv manufacturers improperly stretching motor home chassis and not putting hitches on the same way the chassis came to them to when the bolts shear the hitch rips off the Motorhome

Transparency is tge key... ownership, accountability and responsibility comes with Transparency... Wisdom comes with pain.... on both sides

Tom. What years are the most affected? I have a 2020 solitude with about 25000 miles on it. Haven’t seen anything crazy yet but am kinda worried now.

I agree that there needs to be more regulatory oversight and standardization of building these RVs. These manufacturers should disclose upfront what the capabilities are and what you can/can’t do with these RVs. I think they will but more so to protect themselves from liabilities. I think if you use non approved modifications/components then you are accepting the consequences if a component fails. Part of the accountability is on the buyer to research and know what they should/shouldn’t be doing with their rigs. 2024 is the year for accountability!

That is so scary!

Good video

Tom, were you aware that the GEN Y was not approved for installation by Lippert? Do you feel it is worth the risk should frame failure occur and repair is required?

So is this the same RV where you did not get the king pin latched in and it "crushed" your truck when you pulled away? I know the RV damage appeared to be superficial, but was it?

What years of the gd triple axle toy hauler are affected?

Your posted link to the FB group yu mentioned appears not to work

I have wondered if people’s expectations are misaligned for the service life, durability, and longevity of a Recreational Vehicle. Manufacturers design scope is a unit that is intended to be used ‘Recreationally’ 2,3,4,5 weeks out of a year, some owners are expecting units to be used daily yet be indestructible. I see two different use-cases.

Would not buy a Grand Design product for any reason. They don’t give a damn .

Rv/trailer industry needs regulated like car companies. I bought a vibe trailer, when they designed it, they put too weak of axle for the trailer. When i bought it, said i had like 900 pounds carrying capacity. Then they send a recall sticker that said something like 275 max weight. So, just filling water, propane etc, uses up most of the weight.

I can understand not approved pin boxes being declined. The length of the box or attachment point change does change the leverage as designed so expecting them to cover a non approved pin box will be tough if not impossible.

how come the NHTSA have not demanded safety recalls?

Greg Carlson's KZfaq link didn't stay up for long. So much for 'not selling out'

It should read under disclaimer on 2021. We cut cost on material, design and labor to generate a larger return of profit. 😅 trust us we thoroughly vetted and tested our cheaper design by driving around the block. We have now have a Grand Designed Cluster. Although our President Donald Park made a total compensation of $7 million in 2023. He feels really bad, so please look over the FAQs. Good luck we have a Grand Design Plan, for your purchase.

You and your viewers. In fairness watch Big truck big rv series on the subject

you talk about underrated springs on the trailer, well im in rebuilding older 5th wheel trailer , and the axles on one of my rebuild trailers has a separated axle, ? that means the axle isnt the usual 2 feet apart but space in every 3 feet , example, you see trailer that are having a long overhang on the rear, on some as much as 10'? the front axle stays right in place and the rear axle is between 3-5 feet back, especially on toyhaulers for the carry weight in the garage area, . im even looking to get a manufacture to make a pin spacer like on some tractor trailer where you can extend to the rear . i have a 27 foot MPG toyhauler from a salvage unit as an example to show it rides and controlled better the the original way, if you place a large offroad buggy in the rear garage and theres to much weight in the rear the trailer will SWAY AND SOMETIME OUT OF CONTROL OR FISHTAIL. with this, the person can balance out the load and correct the swaying. i will post a video in the future,

What are those two support under the hitch? Also, the right leg support is not flat on the ground, looks like it's half on concrete pad and half on the grass?

Needless to say RV manufacturers financially fund associations and lobbyists that fight to keep the industry from having any regulations, as they would be costly.

I love they say "approved pin box". They mean the ones Lippert owns? Like the resse ? My Gen-Y ride wayyy better than the old pin box.

Regulation = even HIGHER costs for new RVs. I get it, it needs to happen. But the manufacturers are NOT going to eat any costs associated with regulation (and there will be many) Prices are already way too high. This will put prices out of reach for a LOT more people.

Lot of problems since 2020 models. The industry couldn't keep up with demand. Now it's settled down so hopefully quality will come back up

Just searched "frame flex" on KZfaq. Not sure my phone battery will last thru just scrolling the listings 😮

I have been watching all of these frame flexing videos and there is a major problem. The RV owners and the people doing the welding repairs do not know proper welding methods. You cannot weld metal that I'd not clean. You do not want to grind the aluminum or steel ,you need to just sand it with a flap disk get rid of the paint. Trying to weld 1/4 inch plate with a 110v Mig welder may not penetrate all of the parts. Just a start on this discussion.

If this is a manufacturer defect, it should be fixed no matter if you're the first owner or the 5th owner. It's a safety issue, and the manufacturer should be fixing it for nothing, and the responsibility shouldn't land on the owners.

My dog took a crap once, it looked like a castle ..he then used his paw to create a mote ..it was a GRAND DESIGN

This whole thing brings out the huge defecit of independent dealer many of whom don't give a you know what about after the sale service of customers and have refused to pay the money to staff their service departments and don't have facilities to handle these sort of issues. As the first guy stated, the crap is really going to hit the fan once insurance companies start denying claims on this.

We’ll this kills what little resale value Grand Designs have left. Pretty soon you’re going to see these sitting by the side of the road with a sign FREE TO A GOOD HOME!

It’s not only Grand design it’s Forest River for the most part Iam seeing its most of the 40’ Plus fifthwheels I have Cardinal Luxury it’s doing the same thing Under my front bedroom flexing and fiberglass shell starting to delaminate and crack.

Removing the extended pin box will improve frame flex by up to 60%. (30% typ.). Just common sense using geometry. Re-engineering the truck pin hitch to distribute weight can be done.

Ok if your frame flexes all the time wouldnt you have to recaulk it every trip. Flexing would cause the caulk to break away from the seam?

We need a law to get the shit off of the roads 😮

I own a GD , I had a fire in the belly of our 5th wheel . The insurance company said there was a recall on this. As I was the second owner on a 10 month old unit , I wasn’t covered. I will not buy another Rv. I don’t trust the industry.

For the price those come at people deserve better. Our next will be a used prevost

So glad I didn’t buy Grand Design !

Not only should the RV industry be regulated but RV drivers need to have a special license too. Most RV owners have no idea about weights and GVWR of the tow vehicle and the legalities of it. DOT should also be pulling RVs into weigh stations to verify weight compliance.

The bottom line is they need to build these rv better and make them solid. This is the only reason why I won’t buy one. Hopefully this changes the industry on making these things more solid and give you your money worth

What does it take to get an rv manufacturer to get regulated someone dieing do po workmanship

There should be better regulations and I would guess soon there will be inspections and RVs going into weight stations because I am sure many people are over weight and even if their truck can pull the units they can not stop them. But with regulations it will force the manufacturers to also follow set laws which will protect the consumer. Maybe everyone will have to get CDLs or a form of them.

Get a good lawyer. If the manufacturer doesn’t want you to change the pinbox they should have a warning or they should “pin” the pinbox. I mean McDonalds got sued for not warning people that coffee is hot. Class Action baby

I’m in disbelief about towing with a truck with air bags., that’s ridiculous.. works against the suspension of the rv? 🤔🤔

That was a new horizon frame, not the lippert min spec frame.

Been following you for years. I have a Keystone Alpine 42 f.t think I may have the same issue so don't believe it's just Grand design

Compare this to an intersection in your city. The agencene with not do anything until there is significant data to proof that there is a problem. So now that this is happening in these fifth wheels they will look at the issue and start to rework their frame and go from there. Until there is multiple injuries and fatalities the government will not get involved to start the regulations to medgate this issue. History shows that thought out all things built that effects humans. It is sad that it has to go that far before something gets started and done. Seeing all the interviews that are taking place now and how the industry work together, it seems to me that this is a manufacture issue on design and weight distribution of their product. I say that because it seems to be one manufacturer right now that is having the problem. Good luck to all who experience this issue along with getting taken care of. Safe Travels to all.

As Always follow the money

Sounds like a bunch of Too Big to (Let) Fail BS: "Frame Flex"! FLEXing of a frame IS normal. Weldment failures and cracked structural members is FRAME FAILURE!!!

Is it just grand design, we have riverstone

It's really not a frame flex issue. We are not really talking about the frame flexing, as RV frames are supposed to flex. We are talking about frame failure-meaning weld breaks, fiberglass breaks, and more. other 5th wheel manufacturers have a problem with frame failure as well. Numerous factors may contribute to failures, including: Road Impacts Collisions Loading and weight distribution Use of unapproved hitches or pin boxes Competing suspension (chucking) between the tow vehicle and the fifth wheel Using a non-traditional tow vehicle Manufacturing variations Please check your owner’s manual for weight limits and approved hitches and pin boxes for your unit.

Van Leigh Beacon owner here. Just picked up ours from being repaired at Affinity. Tiffin/Van Leigh wouldn't even answer the phone, so no help whatsoever from them

Great channel and info but need to ease up on the hand girations😮

What frame flex causes is broken wall structures. That’s what many people don’t understand and we’re dealing with.

I get that this issue needs to be dealt with, but some YT'ers need to stop with these drama infested video titles that do nothing but make them look like biased influencers ripping off info from each others' videos and acting like they have the next bit of crucial "you-cant-live-without-it" snippet of info in this most troublesome issue. Don't be Fox or CNN about it, be Walter Cronkite or Reuters. #dramasucks

Just another typical day in an industry that builds garage!

sad part they will not fix the problem should have been a recall

If you have ever been to Affinity RV Repair in Goshen, Indiana you can see what it’s all about. He has repaired hundreds of these for us fools that were jerked around by the rv manufacturer before we all are beginning to realize it is widespread throught the industry and not just GD.

I don’t believe that lowering a 5th wheel on 2 vertical 2x4s is a valid test of “frame flex”. If the pad isn’t level I wouldn’t lie under it.

Why was his wife inside the camper when they were jacking letting Jack’s down to check the king pin ?

Next, " AS IS "

I think that campaigning the stories to every RV`er would eventually put GD out of business. This is what is needed to make a shift in the way RV customers are treated when they have a problem.

Think about commercial truck trailers don’t fall apart so why should any RV trailer fall apart cuz somebody is cutting corners