The Origin of the Orcs | Are They All Evil? [Middle Earth Lore]

Рет қаралды 13,904

Жыл бұрын

An examination of the various origins of J.R.R. Tolkien's Orcs of Middle Earth as well as a consideration of the questions surrounding their redeemability and how they arrived at their inherently evil nature.
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Пікірлер: 126

@joemck74 Жыл бұрын

I'm loving how Tolkien fandom is delving into obscure theological matters - while Amazon is giving Galadriel a big sword and sending her out to hack at stuff.

@phantomwriter05 Жыл бұрын

There's a very dark tidbit in "The Children of Hurin" that I've never seen anyone cover before about orcs. It's when Turin and Beleg create the safe zone of "The Land of Bow & Helm" they discuss briefly that the Orc war parties are being led by these tall and white super orcs and they don't know where they're from or what they are. Which hints that Morgoth was breeding orcs with Captive Elven slaves in Angband and like Sauron was in the Third Age was trying to create a super-race of orcs ... but with High Elf blood. It might be the darkest shit Tolkien ever wrote besides Morgoth lusting after Luthien so savagely he sent an army to Doriath just to kidnap her so he could rape her.

@Psyrus88 Жыл бұрын

It is dubious as to whether or not Tolkein actually wrote that.

@specialnewb9821 Жыл бұрын

Those are more likely the lesser Maiar taking the form of orcs. We know Morgoth animated the dragons by putting evil spirits in them. Sauron also did the same with the First Age werewolves.

@celtofcanaanesurix2245 Жыл бұрын

@@specialnewb9821 or it could be both

@yaelz6043 Жыл бұрын

At least with morgoth it was just implied, there was that dark elf guy who was after his cousin and I think that was far more direct.

@arthurballs9632 Жыл бұрын

@@Psyrus88 Why don't you think Tolkien wrote it? Genuine question. I don't know the title the OP cites, but they seem to know what they're talking about to my newbie eyes.

@ArawnsFire Жыл бұрын

The first Orcs were the twisted mockery of Morgoth. But , according to the Silmarillion they multiplied in the same manner as the children of Eru Ilúvatar. In the Hobbit William the Troll showed compassion for Bilbo and asked to let him go. so why could not an Orc show the same? Tolkien wrote that they feared their masters more than they hated their enemies. Perhaps for these wretched beings death was the only release from misery .

@riffmagos Жыл бұрын

Thank you for keeping Tolkien Lore alive.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

It's interesting that Tolkien himself was constantly redefining characters. It shows how much he wanted to tell the best possible story

@arthurballs9632 Жыл бұрын

It kinda stunk when Lucas did it.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

@@arthurballs9632 That's because Tolkien did all the changes before putting the books out. George Lucas kept going back and changing things after the films were released. We've never got a totally finished product Like Tolkien. With openings for fan interpretation

@screviews Жыл бұрын

Been a while since I checked in but I wanted to say congrats on reaching 100k. Keep up the great vids NC. 👍

@NerdCookies Жыл бұрын

Thank you SC!!! Still my #1 subscriber! ❤

@sid2112 Жыл бұрын

Hey SC love your vids!

@thestanleys3657 Жыл бұрын

A wise man once said "evil can't create only corrupt" so I'd imagine that orcs are originally created from elves. Trolls from Ents. Wargs from wolf/bears. Nazgul fellbeasts from great eagles

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

and this wise man would be the internet fake trolls and it sure like Mordor was not Tolkien.

@celtofcanaanesurix2245 Жыл бұрын

@@NickNobody161 it literally was tolkien, perhaps that wasn't his exact words, but he basically said as much by making it true in his works

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

@@celtofcanaanesurix2245 no he didn´t. quote true or don´t. But don´t use credibility for an internet fake hype. Because then I have to say to you, that you can´t create yourself, but just twist the works of others.

@thestanleys3657 Жыл бұрын

@@NickNobody161 “The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined and twisted them, and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures.”-Frodo from return of the king

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

@@thestanleys3657 Yes, you did it. You quoted the right way.

@kylehogan2247 Жыл бұрын

I love that this channel has started reaching into LoTR and so much more. I came here for the Dune lore, and I live here for all the other fandom lore I've started seeing here. I love this channel, and I greatly appreciate the work that gets poured into this. Thank you.

@MetalGearMando Жыл бұрын

"Mommy where do orcs come from" Well you see when an Elf is introduced to dark magic...

@JessWLStuart Жыл бұрын

I like the notion of Orcs being dead elven bodies corrupted by Morgoth, and animated by lesser Maiar. I hadn't heard that one before!

@deanlawson6880 Жыл бұрын

Wow this is a really interesting and thorough coverage of the lore and origins of the Orcs. This is probably the most in-depth explanation I've ever seen of the actual origins of the orcs. Nicely Done!

@specialnewb9821 Жыл бұрын

Even Morgoth and Sauron were redeemable (though they would never, as they'd never repent). We do get hints that when Morgoth and Sauron weren't around the orcs operated more like bandits. But the dark lords could dominate them so completely they had to serve even though they hated Morgoth and Sauron as much as they hated everything else, even themselves. Tolkien says the orcs generally did not live as long as men owing to the extremes of their environment so I do think that as time passed they were more corrupted stock of men. There are exceptions like say Bolg, but I think those are evil spirits taking form as orc leaders. One of more interesting ideas I have heard regarding orcs is their look and abilities were dark gifts given to them sort of a mockery of what the Valar did for the Numenoreans. And after the third age, with Sauron broken those gifts would slowly be withdrawn so as the generations passed the orcs became less and less corrupted until they were able to re-merge into the race of men making modern man more susceptible to evil temptations than the men of Middle Earth.

@danelamoreaux4166 Жыл бұрын

I love everything about this channel.

@Jared_Wignall Жыл бұрын

Cool to see a Lord of the Rings lore video. Keep up the great work Elaine!

@christopherwalsh2368 Жыл бұрын

I tend to lean toward the "they were elves once" theory. It is the one outlined in the Silmarillion. As for the halls of Mandos I like to think they can go there upon death. The twisted and mutilated Elf theory also shows they were early victims of Morgoth and are mostly if not completely blameless in their actions.

@jerrysstories711 Жыл бұрын

I was absolutely fascinated by the idea that Morgoth created the Orcs but couldn't understand that he had not created Life, only twisted and rearranged Life that Eru had created. Btw, if you're going to dive into topics like the Orcs, you've just got to delve into JRRT's experiences in WWI, which inspired many ideas in LOTR.

@specialnewb9821 Жыл бұрын

Compare the Dwarves and Aule. They were dwarfbots until Eru breathed life into them.

@projectinlinesix Жыл бұрын

Orc Cookies! Excellent!!

@celtofcanaanesurix2245 Жыл бұрын

by far the most nuanced dive into the origins of the orcs I've heard yet. I had not even considered that multiple origins could be true at once, especially the more elemental idea, but tolkien originally wrote his works in the context of germanic sagas and myths, and later reframed it in a catholic lense, so just as the Catholic and the Pagan viewed the same cultures gods and spirits differently, they could have had that spectrum of origins.

@cajintexas7751 Жыл бұрын

Gollum's physical form was mutated by his obsession with and possession of Sauron's ring. So physically, at least, prolonged exposure to the influence of evil can mutate as well as corrupt spiritually. Therefore I find it plausible that orcs can be elves corrupted by Morgoth -- maybe even willingly so. If that is the case, then their souls would share the fates of regular elves who choose to do evil. But that would also suggest that they are redeemable.

@kineofaraw790 Жыл бұрын

Great video! Keep up the good work!

@sid2112 Жыл бұрын

Imagine if Smaug became an investor and banking CEO.

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

Lofwyr

@Donnirononon Жыл бұрын

The better question would be: Where do they go? Are their souls bound to Eä or do they go where human souls go? Can their souls be cleansed by Eru?

@mikemaoudj4397 Жыл бұрын

Wow, that was such a great video Elaine! I did not know that Tolkien was questioning whether to make Orcs redeemable or not, and if they are that def makes for some interesting philosophical and moral questions

@lokitus Жыл бұрын

This is the most thorough and thoughtful review of orc origins out there.

@VosperCDN Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, and in far greater detail than I was aware of (not being a Tolkien scholar, or a diehard fan like Colbert)

@kyanderson2461 Жыл бұрын

I love your channel ! Thank you .

@The_Sisyphean Жыл бұрын

Great stuff. Cheers.

@Scharfy7 Жыл бұрын

god every single time i hear your voice... makes me feel so good

@matthewmckinney5387 Жыл бұрын

Thank Eru! Shes doing Tolkien! Ive been waiting for you to cover Tolkien, one of my biggest questions is what exactly happened to valinor when the earth was made round and how the elves find the "straight road" that lead them from middle earth to valinor

@hobson1098 Жыл бұрын

What a perfect channel this is. Keep it up pls…

@FarrellMcGovern Жыл бұрын

Interesting! I also note that the Ukranians frequently describe the Russian invaders as "Orcs". I wonder what the origin of that is...is Tolkien extremely popular in Ukraine?

@shadowrodney Жыл бұрын

I had thought of the idea that Orcs is a collective term for all the beings corrupted and twisted into the service of evil, hence why you often hear the term Orcs when in actuality the party is facing what is also described as Goblins, Uruks and Uruk-Hai. This idea is reinforced by the existence of Goblin-Men. You seem to have a much deeper understanding of the lore than I but we seem to come to the same kind of idea.

@lsporter88 Жыл бұрын

I tend to agree with your theory. It would indeed make the most sense. Fascinating topic.

@radastir Жыл бұрын

So the beasts towing Grond are just tortured and twisted unicorns...

@andrewlim9345 Жыл бұрын

Good discussion of the theories around the origins of the orca. Liked how you blended the various origins theories including slime, corrupted elves and corrupted men. I always struggled with the idea of orcs being irredeemable due to my Christian beliefs in redemption. Tolkien probably grappled with that issue as well.

@MrUncleHerb Жыл бұрын

God bless you, this channel is amazing.

@Mr.Dingo7118 Жыл бұрын

I agree with your theory. They are more a feral, primal vessel without empathy and self-conscious.

@shanenolan8252 Жыл бұрын

Thanks elaine.

@theturquoisedream9244 Жыл бұрын

Yay!!! Lords of the rings Cookies!!!!🤩🤩🤩

@machiavellianoverture1747 Жыл бұрын

Some questions are best left un-awnsered. Some myths rather left to theory crafting to occupy the creativity and imagination of others that could and should inspire them to create their own universes.,

@seufererfamily Жыл бұрын

Just curious as to which books you are referencing?

@zealos66 Жыл бұрын

I agree I think it's a combination of stuff I remember at one point it's believed they where made by rock and stone another by corrupted elves also the interpreting of goblin men I think it's more morkoth created from stone since he was closest to the creator Saucony with corrupted elves since he could not create and sauruman with the mixing of goblin men but then again I know very little of the lore it's been years since I read the books

@kwinter2541 Жыл бұрын

in Warhammer40K it posits that Orks are sentient fungi

@Deridus Жыл бұрын

Devolved sentient fungi, at that. Krork would be a truly galaxy-shattering foe in m42, even against the 'nids, if they could be restored that is.

@gerardmontgomery280 Жыл бұрын

Mordor is an equal opportunity employer.

@Stebetto3 Жыл бұрын

Kiitos!

@NerdCookies Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@gunargundarson1626 Жыл бұрын

I read in a book that the Orc can become neutral but will never regain their angelic visage.

@Davepool-hs7vr Жыл бұрын

Can you do a video on the Nazgul and their origin please?

@NerdCookies Жыл бұрын

I think I have one on the Nazgul

@Davepool-hs7vr Жыл бұрын

@@NerdCookies sweet

@radioactiveapplesauce7560 Жыл бұрын

If you made an audiobook I would listen to it ... could be about peanuts, I'm in.

@Pongant Жыл бұрын

With all the expensive fan-fiction going on, I'd love to see an independent film of an ork tribe trying to keep diplomacy going with their racist elven neighbours in Lothlórien.

@jessepollard7132 Жыл бұрын

The problem is that the nearest orcs would have been those in the mines of Moria. along with the Balrog.

@Pongant Жыл бұрын

@@jessepollard7132 all misunderstood creatures that happen to live under the mountain

@marxug1 Жыл бұрын

Tolkien was ambivalent about orcs’ identity and origins because of his own culture’s ambivalence on the nature of evil. It’s a convenient dramatic device to have ranks of irredeemable foes for the heroes to slaughter without remorse. But a man such as JRR who served in the war would be forced to confront the reality far from the propaganda, that enemies are often made by circumstance and by the crafters of political narratives. The “goblins” so gleefully killed in The Hobbit gain newer, more perplexing dimension in the novels and later, the Silmarillion. If he had lived twenty more years, I doubt JRR would have been able to iron out the orc question.

@otakarkuby3926 Жыл бұрын

The word Orc refers to death, so from Elementals to corrupted Elves and Human, any twist of nature to serve evil in doing harm could be refered to as Orc.

@Sasuke81a Жыл бұрын

Saruman: They were Elves once.

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

only in Jackson´s movie

@johnwillis8223 Жыл бұрын

All Orcs Go to Heaven- Narrated by Nerd Cookies

@clarkstartrek Жыл бұрын

One Giant Question? HOW DO ORCS BREED? AND MULITIPLY BY SO MANY THOUSANDS!

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

it is a very sad story for the orc women.

@pskarts20 Жыл бұрын

I sappose there could be a good orc. Never Goblins!

@janwitts2688 Жыл бұрын

Not evil just eat people. . Brrrrp. .. BOLM I guess

@jeffreyballinger133 Жыл бұрын

Then my question is the origin of goblins and trolls. Offshoot maybe?

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

Goblins are orcs. It is just a mocking name for the small, skinny ones, for example in Moria. Trolls were Morgoths mocking of Ents.

@champisthebunny6003 Жыл бұрын

Are all Hobbits Good and Pure of Heart?

@byronlee8745 Жыл бұрын

The orcs were one of the things in Lord of the Rings that I found interesting, yet a little scary as well. We may find out the origins of the orcs in the new Rings of Power series!

@NerdCookies Жыл бұрын

I am hoping to at least see some cool new Weta designs for Orcs in Rings of Power.

@yaelz6043 Жыл бұрын

Let's be real here, Tolkien wrote all that around the time of the world wars and openly said that elves were Scandinavians and orcs were corrupted elves. He was clearly just talking smack about the Germans. The british were very specific about what to say about which race at any given point.

@TheSleepyowlet Жыл бұрын

Bad guys speaking a harsh-sounding language who are really good at inventing destructive tech? Yep, that tracks 😂

@gunargundarson1626 Жыл бұрын

You should do a theory video on how dragons were created, as it been speculated that the dragons were twisted and corrupted children of iluvatar. Their dragon physical appearance is like how the Maiar who are twisted and corrupted turn into Balrogs.

@Josh_Exitcamper Жыл бұрын

Now do…URUK HAI.

@sleepyfaryna Жыл бұрын

Good thing Russian Ork piles are growing in Ukraine 🇺🇦 Салава Україні🇺🇦

@Josh_Exitcamper Жыл бұрын

@@sleepyfaryna you’ve got that backwards, bud….don’t believe the virtue signaling mainstream media…and besides Russia has millions of troops in reserve.

@temuulenchoi Жыл бұрын

Mongolia

@chenli9778 Жыл бұрын

I got a feeling that the new TV series would either make Orcs even more irredeemable like Disney did for Empire of Starwars... Or they would out right make Good Orc Characters...

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

"more irredeemable like Disney did for Empire" There are lots of redeemed Empire figures in the new Star Wars. Kylo Ren, Immanuel Doza, Tamara Ryvora, Galen Erso, Reva, Alexsandr Kallus being just a few examples

@chenli9778 Жыл бұрын

@@NickNobody161 They are "redeemable" by Reject Empire, in a way, they killed their "Empire selves" by stop being part of the Empire... Over all Disney goes the way as "Rebel/republic always good, Empire always wrong", the Black and White.

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

@@chenli9778And how is this different from before Disney? More important, that´s not true either. > Saw Gerrera. And I would say, that Caracters like Aphra walk the line between light and dark very well.

@chenli9778 Жыл бұрын

@@NickNobody161 Well in Legend after get rid of Palpatin Empire became a Normal Faction that tolerate different race and try to make up for what they did... In Disney Canon Empire just evil and evil and evil, nothing more...

@MarsM13 Жыл бұрын

I think that Tolkien shouldn't have been so absolutist about the idea that evil can't create in the slightest. It creates problems in his stories and is a flaw inherent to oldschool Christian thinking. That thinking that God is absolutely good, omnipotent, and the source of all creativity and power. It's ultimately kind of drama-destroying, since you end up with stories where the villain is plainly fucked from day one, and was always an idiot to even consider rebelling. It's a problem in both Tolkien's and C.S. Lewis' writing. Just let Morgoth be able to create an evil species and you avoid all of this debate about how he got around this limitation.

@chrisfreeman78 Жыл бұрын

and here I was thinking orcs came from Russia!!!!!!!!

@mattymaple1976 Жыл бұрын

I would be angry if the elves and men chased me off my land and be left to live in the hills and in Mordor. If anything, we should applaud Sauron for taking them in and giving them jobs The elves are the TRUE evil lol

@sergiikru24 Жыл бұрын

Orcs come from ruZZia

@Jaysin412 Жыл бұрын

Half of these "Orc" pics, aren't Orcs... sure, some are, but anything from the L.O.T.R. trilogy, those aren't Orcs, those are Oruk-hai.... a half breed between Orcs, and goblin men. The pics of Orcs from the HOBBIT trilogy, are tho, actual Orcs. And yes, while Tolkien doesn't tell how the Orcs are created in the L.O.T.R. and Hobbit books, he does go into how they're created in the "SILMARILION" , and in his later notes. But yeah, any of the pictures from The L.O.T.R. movies ARE NOT ORCS! THEY ARE ORUK-HAI, which are Orc/Goblin men hybrids.... that's why they're born from mud. Not birthed...

@Nineteen1900Hundred Жыл бұрын

Aren’t Saruman’s mud-birthing-pits a Peter Jackson movie invention?

@ABs70nova Жыл бұрын

Very interesting....So they're Trump supporters. They act and look just like them

@NickNobody161 Жыл бұрын

but they were not tortured or created of stone. They chose to be like that of their own will.

@raydavison4288 Жыл бұрын

💖

@michaelpipkin9942 Жыл бұрын

Wouldn't it be hilarious if they forced a gay kiss with The Orcs? One of the Orcs dyed their hair blue and the rest is history! HAHAHA!!!!! It would not be surprising.

@qzbnyv Жыл бұрын

Don’t you ever want a place free of the culture war b.s.?

@michaelpipkin9942 Жыл бұрын

@@qzbnyv Yes my dude. We had to take more than one on the chin to get this crap over with. At least it was partly entertaining, THANK GOD for people with a sense of humor who weren't afraid to make fun of them.