Why Amazon's RINGS OF POWER is NOT "TOLKIENIAN"

Рет қаралды 23,172

Жыл бұрын

An examination of what it truly means to be "Tolkienian", the different interpretations that have been associated with it and why I believe that this new Amazon Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power show does not fit that description. In the flood of promotional marketing leading up to the premiere of Amazon Prime’s The Rings of Power Series fans got to hear a lot from the showrunners JD Payne and Patrick McKay regarding their approach to this show. There have been several questionable remarks from Payne and McKay as they have revealed the limited rights they hold to JRR Tolkien’s second age stories and the creative liberties they have taken to supplement their show. I’ve noticed in various interviews the frequent use of the term "Tolkienian" in attempting to describe their approach to creating original content within this supposed middle earth series.
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Original Video Link: • LOTR: THE RINGS OF POW...
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Пікірлер: 617

@ohifonlyx33 Жыл бұрын

I agree with Shippey, totally. As a fan of things, I'm not outright opposed to the idea of fanfic... but the best fanfic is written by people who know the timeline, world, and characters then play within that sandbox, digging deeper, not more broadly in the mud around the sandbox. at times you can even translate a character and idea to a different setting and write an AU. But this is neither a biopic of Galadriel's life during the second age with a few creative liberties, nor is it akin to Clueless: a modern retelling of Emma. It is simply ~wrong.

@terragthegreat175 Жыл бұрын

The Shadow of Mordor games are an excellent example of LOTR fanfic done well. It smudges the lore somewhat, but it's a fun game and it doesn't really market itself as 'pure tolkien' so people give it a pass.

@nagamata Жыл бұрын

The show runners talking about the interaction of all the diverse races and “underdogs” and all that being Tolkienian is SO clearly themselves projecting the current social world view on to the material-material which they’re fabricating.

@arcadealchemist Жыл бұрын

These benders can't understand the work they are attempting to plagiarize

@fantasywind3923 Жыл бұрын

This shows also they completely misinterpret the material they are dealing with, the Second Age, unlike the Hobbit and Lotr, Second Age stories, are no longer continuous narratives, quests or adventure stories of underdogs or everyman characters, or people coming together, obviously stuff like The Last Alliance is one instance but it's near the end of the SA, the stories of the Second Age are more focused on hubris, desires of people twisted against them, themes of corruption, temptation of power leading to tragedy, those stories ARE grim and tragic as Tolkien would say, for they end with the "destruction of the beauty of ancient world", they are also not about your simple folk or commoner or everyman rando who goes on adventure...NO they are about the struggles of the great, wise, powerful, lords, kings, rulers, great families, politics and great visionaries (Celebrimbor for one), so paradoxically it can sort of be more like Game of Thrones, and yet still radically different :) the core themes are about the fall of civlizations, upcoming disasters, obviously there is hope lingering still amidst this chaos, but as Elrond says in Lotr, "many defeats and fruitless victories".

@megatronjenkins2473 Жыл бұрын

I'll be passing on this series, largely thanks to you, Cookie, and all you've dug up on this imitator.

@AgentBlakk Жыл бұрын

Nerd cookies is one of a few credible content creators who can call balls and strikes on Amazon’s ROP.

@thecollector6746 Жыл бұрын

....if by "credible" you mean she saw how many clicks the other right-wing, mouth breathing idiots in this space where getting so she decided to jump on the bandwagon..then sure....absolutely.

@danielbruce9750 Жыл бұрын

She’s basically the only one I’m listening to about this show.

@thecollector6746 Жыл бұрын

@@danielbruce9750 ...except for the fact she hasn't actually seen the show. None of you have.

@darthsilversith667 Жыл бұрын

@@thecollector6746 We’ve seen enough in the trailers and heard enough from the show runners to know that it’s going to be a dumpster fire. When someone squats over your dinner table to take a shit.. you don’t have to wait for it to come out to know it’s going to be a steaming pile of crap.

@DragonSlayerCommentariesHQ Жыл бұрын

@@thecollector6746 read the Silmarillion and then watch this garbage series from Amazon when it comes out. I wonder if you'll play the same tune when you realize finally why this Fandom is so angry at Amazon. They didn't just do what Peter Jackson did which was to adapt Lord of the Rings as best as he could within the boundaries of Tolkien's world. Through their official statements and interviews, Amazon doesn't care or has passion for making a good adaptation of the original writer's works. They simply want to use it as a platform to spread their own dumb message. Tolkien fans have seen this happen with Star Wars and Star Trek and we hoped that things would be different with Amazon, but alas the veil of falsehood was lifted. All that is left for the fans to offer Amazon is their wrath. They woke up a sleeping dragon they shouldn't have messed with.

@connecticutaggie Жыл бұрын

I agree, from what I have heard, Amazon and the show runners are using Tolkien as a brand to market their show. I have been super excited about the show but now I am concerned that it is going to feel like a pig that is wearing a lion mask and shouting "look at me I am a lion".

@Balandrus Жыл бұрын

All the warning signs have been there from the start. There was absolutely no reason to be excited for this show.

@megatronjenkins2473 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 you again. Ok, just because you seem to prefer 'light-hearted', doesn't mean everyone does. Silmarillion is HARDLY the only tragedy in fiction, so obviously people like to read it. Shakespeare wrote a lot of tragedies, he seems to be rather popular. So, when you have an argument that's not 'avoid this because people don't like depressing', then c'mon back. Meanwhile, leave the basement and get some sun, maybe that'll help.

@megatronjenkins2473 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 and it just dawned on me: if you haven't read The Silmarillion, how do you know it's depressing?

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 You've obviously never watched Wagner's Ring operas. Highly charged with a wide range of emotion. Same with Tolkien. You ride a roller coaster of emotion. Granted a lot of those emotions leave you drained. But that's why we love them. Why they're still popular decades after the author's death. The very reason mainstream media doesn't understand them. I for one want that dystopian element couple with a sense of awe, wonder and hope. Which is why what I'm hearing distresses me so much. I read Tolkien for the emotional impact. If I didn't want that I would have read some one else.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

It's another way of saying something is problematic. They're covering their butts for when the show under performs. Then they'll blame everyone but themselves.

@JessWLStuart Жыл бұрын

I think turning Galadriel into an angry warrior diminishes her character. Much of Galadriel's character, to me, is the contained power of a mystical elf who rarely shows her power, and not by force of arms. Her portrayal in the Hobbit movies was spot on - magical, mysterious, and having a contained strength that, when unleashed, can even force Sauron to flee.

@markhill3858 Жыл бұрын

yes :) if you have to prove youre powerful .. then youre not really powerful, just insecure

@tarkajedi3331 Жыл бұрын

Completely agree!!! They are ruining her character for drama !!! Galadriel is regal, calm, wise and bearer of a ring of power and to make her in the trenches is folly!!!

@RobynLeSueur Жыл бұрын

That's literally what she was in the first and second age. Her mother named her 'man-maiden' and Tolkien described her as Amazonian and the only elf-woman who could physically contest with the elven princes. There's a reason she was the only elf in middle earth still subject to the ban of the Noldor in the third age, and had to demonstrate she'd changed by refusing the ring.

@EdwardLewisIV Жыл бұрын

Simply put, Galadriel is BEYOND the need for physical power. Hollywood seems incapable of understanding that women don't need to fight like men to be powerful.

@juusovuolle8251 Жыл бұрын

Funny how you forgot the part where she marries celeborn and raises their daughter celebrian and ruled over the people of southern Lindon and later on Eriador. And that ruling over people was the reason for her coming to middle-earth.. Must have just slipped your mind

@FoggyBeemerGamer Жыл бұрын

As a long time Tolkien fan, I'm very bothered by what Amazon is doing with this, and it is a travesty. Based upon the like/dislike ratio for every single Prime Video trailer or promotion on KZfaq, this is going to be a train wreck. And I'm here to see it fail in spectacular fashion.

@Panicagq2 Жыл бұрын

I'd happily watch an anthology comprised of the scads of smaller untold stories that happened off-page. The crew that was hired to secretly ferry clothing over the River for delivery to the unclad Nazgûl, or a story of Gollum's effect on local villages as he wandered in search of "Baggins"...there are so many sketched-out tales that would fall well within their legal scope where they can invent most of the characters and still honor Tolkien's world.

@MarsVee123 Жыл бұрын

It’s so sad what could have been. The budget on that show is insane. What a waste

@jkdbuck7670 Жыл бұрын

And when it fails, it will be because we're all ista-phobes and garbage humans. I hope it fails and they lose their half billion.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

They definitely aren't the same as the producers of the Lord of the Rings.

@HugoStiglitz88 Жыл бұрын

It's funny cuz the cgi looks bad lol

@ScriptDoctor Жыл бұрын

What I'm seeing from your coverage of this show is the writers attempting to 'replicate' the LotR trilogy in a previous age by playing the beats of that trilogy in reverse, instead of finding a different story from those appendices that can be explored in a fun and inspiring way.

@NerdCookies Жыл бұрын

Yep. Which would make the LOTR trilogy less special if something like this happens every age.

@Balandrus Жыл бұрын

And therein lies the problem. They can't actually tell any of the stories from the Second Age, as they don't have the rights to them. But, let's be honest: a faithful telling of Tolkien's works was never the intention with these people.

@wd2989 Жыл бұрын

Amazon’s DEI policy and it’s showrunners, producers, casting director, and writers are on my shit list! They are giving me a bastardized depiction of the 2nd age stories.

@ghyslainabel Жыл бұрын

@@Balandrus the appendices give the genealogy of the kinks of Númenor, and a broad acount of the events in the Second Age. The Second Age is there, but in bullet points.

@Jim-Tuner Жыл бұрын

@@Balandrus That used to be true. But after Simon Tolkien took over the estate, he opened up the rights to everything to Amazon. Simon will sell anything or approve anything for money. They have access to more than the appendicies.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

Another example of how Hollywood screws author's work. They're messing with Tolkien much in the same way they messed Asimov's Foundation saga and Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Two other works the author's intent is thrown out the window for the sake of the show runner's vanity. The more I hear the less I want to see this show.

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

That is because Apple didn't buy Foundation's adaptation rights, they brought a famous work of Science Fiction by a famous Sci Fi author, and in the same way but to an even bigger extent, Amazon brought a work with the all important name Tolkien. They never really intended to create a faithful work based on the material, just want a big name for promotion. I doubt for Apple it worked, but not based on Foundation alone, rather there is no breakout show with Apple TV, they simply left it too long to get into streaming platform with original content. As for Amazon, I guess it will be determined in the end of the year.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

@@varsityathlete9927 I agree entirely. This has been happening in Hollywood for generations. Sad but true.

@Jbickley00 Жыл бұрын

Yes Hollywood does this. So? The only place where you get “real” Tolkien is in the books. So if you want to engage with Tolkien, you ave to read him. Hollywood does what it does-it’s. It damaging Tolkien or altering is work.

@isaiahsmith7123 Жыл бұрын

@@varsityathlete9927 Well it doesn't help that Foundation is not a good show

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

@@isaiahsmith7123 which part told you i thought it was a good show lmao?

@Curious_Traveler Жыл бұрын

Spot on as always. These studio’s desperation to have their Game of Thrones and, the injection of modernity into every mythos is killing the fantasy genre in film and television. The show runners know they are doing this as well, but they erred when they called these motives “Tolkienian”.

@thecollector6746 Жыл бұрын

....except for it hasn't actually "killed" anything. At what point do you mouth breathing clowns just admit seeing PoC in your favorite fiction(In case no one told you...you idiot...none of this is real. It's completely made up nonsense that we all consume for entertainment" has broke your little brains ?

@megatronjenkins2473 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 look GoT fanboy, this isn't supposed to be for 'many people', this is supposed to be for Tolkien fans, and yes, while it'd be hard to translate Silmarillion to screen, this series does nothing but insult Tolkien fans.

@MrKillerUndead Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 Didn't you hear? this show has nothing to do with the Silmarillion because they don't have the rights to it. It's all glorified fanfiction based on the appendices from LOTR. Everything else you said was too stupid to warrant a response.

@RoyCyberPunk Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 Oh look another Baizuo Twatwafle Globalist Left minion shill troll who most likely thinks that the world is solely populated by Democrats and Republicans and since I'm Puerto Rican you can take your white guilt race card and shove it up your 💩 shute real tight Baizuo, bye 👋...

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 "many people did not read" Silmarillion has sold millions of copies. It was an immediate best seller when released and sold steadily for years, has never left print. Your implication seems to suggest it was a minor unread work - which is simply incorrect.

@josephlamonica4167 Жыл бұрын

Another great video Elaine. You've made us all Nerd Cookienian. :P

@theturquoisedream9244 Жыл бұрын

I know that right!!! I get excited everytime there's a new video!!!🤩🤩🤩

@di3486 Жыл бұрын

Hahaha excellent!

@Kelkschiz Жыл бұрын

Showrunners take way too many liberties in my view. It's disrespectful to the authors and typically they tend to do a poor job. The works that get turned into tv series are typically the masterworks of sci-fi and fantasy. Thinking you can improve these works is pure hubris. What they should do is a tasteful adaptation that respects the integrity of the original. Peter Jackson's LotR is a fine example that it is possible. Sure had to cut out some cherished characters, and introduced some changes, but all in order to make a successful movie adaptation. I am also still a fan of David Lynch's Dune. But much of what was created in recent years... I won't mention.

@lawrenceburchett7411 Жыл бұрын

I agree with you, I first read the Ring Books in 1968, and while no Scholar, I do know the stories well, they have changed way too much.

@joemck74 Жыл бұрын

For a talented writer, the short 'thumbnail' sketches of history that are presented in the LotR appendices would be a godsend. Each is a perfect skeleton to create a fleshed-out story around; and each story while often episodic in nature is yet connected to the greater narrative in a coherent timeline. The overall plot and motivations of the 'god tier' characters are plain and simple to grasp and supply a solid 'spine' for the other tales to connect to. The 'human scale' events can therefore be presented in shorter one, two, even three episode instalments that the uninitiated viewers can easily understand as stand-alone stories or part of a larger tale symphony

@iandennis7836 Жыл бұрын

I couldn't agree more, Joe, the sheer amount of hints and suggestions in the appendices is a seam just BEGGING to be explored, mined and wrought into a myriad of beautiful stories to enthrall Tolkien fans AND newcomers. Christ on a crutch, if I can come up with half a dozen ideas off the top of my head, surely a decent writer could do as least as much and probably better.

@liem11 Жыл бұрын

I had a feeling that this was going to be bad. This video just confirmed it for me. Had they the Silmarillion they might have made something decent. Without it there is no hope. Would have been better to just do a side story in the third age like playing with the Blue Wizards or the men of the East.

@eodyn7 Жыл бұрын

I'm scared to see what Amazon is going to do with Stargate. Here's to hoping it gets the Reacher or Terminal List treatment.

@jamdoodles Жыл бұрын

I'm less worried for Stargate just because there's less there to try & cram into a series. The tone of Stargate Universe was a significant, & I think for the worse, diversion from the tone of the prior two series. I think that's mainly because the writers on Universe came over from Battlestar Galactica & they brought their world with them. If the writers of the new Stargate get back to the tone of the older series, I'll call it a win.

@roryedward2631 Жыл бұрын

They got their hands on stargate? Damn im not sure how i feel about that. On one hand, i love stargate, and ive been wanting a sequal or continuation on previous installments, but amazons track record so far isnt that good.

@megatronjenkins2473 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 repeatrepeatrepeatrepeatrepeat

@RoyCyberPunk Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 They were not going to focus on the first age and the wars elves had among themselves. Originally as Shippy said it was supposed to be about the forging of the rings and the fall of Numenor so you can stop with the cheap excuses and sucking Bezos shaft so hard shill, bye 👋...

@ohifonlyx33 Жыл бұрын

@@jamdoodles For one thing, Stargate is set in the modern world, so we won't have to complain too much about diversity "not fitting" into the story (no one would have cared if Sam was Latina and Daniel were black, unless the writers virtue signaled about it every dang minute of the day)... but on the other hand, IT'S SET IN THE MODERN WORLD so expect everything to be woke.... Sam to be a dysphoric lesbian taking anxiety pills and testosterone and pining for her commanding officer who is a black woman named Jack with a complex about being a black woman in the military. While Daniel is a useless sad white "nice guy" who gets rejected by Sam and holds a grudge until he meets a not-quite-humanoid alien of ambiguous gender and they have an unholy mating scene that makes you want to pull your eyes out. And Teal'c is the same, except he gives his symbiote agency resulting in him having multiple personalities. The plot twist is that it's actually the government who is trying to colonize and oppress the universe, not the Goa'uld.... You know, gotta make the show relatable to modern (read: mentally and spiritually sick) audiences.

@PoopaChallupa Жыл бұрын

The show runners are to be treated no differently than a politician. Doesn't matter what they say, all that matters is what they produce.

@PeloquinDavid Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! So let's hold our judgement until we see what they come up with... If worse comes to worst, we can simply stop watching: no one should get hysterical about this stuff! (It's not our money they'll be wasting...)

@PoopaChallupa Жыл бұрын

@@PeloquinDavid You misunderstand. We've already seen enough to know it will be terrible. The show runners say one thing, but do the opposite. It's not Tolkien and i will not support this by watching it. Amazon has their pants down and they are bent over, i don't have to see the shit to know it will be shit. They have already made it clear that they intend to shit.

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

@@PeloquinDavid imagine paying for this trash

@adamanthony3585 Жыл бұрын

I can always look to you for being even-handed and fair in your criticisms! For ROP to have earned your ire means Amazon is really messing up.

@patrickleitzen9752 Жыл бұрын

You've become one of my most trusted channels in regards to fantasy and science fiction content. Always a top-notch take.

@whylie74 Жыл бұрын

tolkienian to me is code for " I'm a talentless hack with no imagination of my own, a fundamentle lack of forthough, diligence and patience, a narcesit with a cripling need to be accepted and seen as great." Way back when this show was first touted it was because Bezos wanted a GoT for prime and then it came out it was going to be dressed in Lotr clothes, which no-one to my knowlage thought was a good idea and that it would fade into develoment hell and be dropped. But no it wasn't and here we are, and yet they haven't learned the most crusial leason GoT has to teach, which is deviate from the scorce material and failure isn't faraway, GoT didn't have much choice as they ranout of books but these guys have decided to start from that point, using the bare minimum to tie it to Tolkien and just making the rest up, they'd have been better served by building thier own story, with themes and charaters they wanted to see, insted of butchering some one elses work to achive their goals.

@danelamoreaux4166 Жыл бұрын

The best channel on KZfaq. I can't get enough. You're the absolute best. Don't have a good day.....have a great day.

@OtherWorldExplorers Жыл бұрын

I have an opinion, but I lack the indepth knowledge to express it with the veracity it deserves. My opinion is that this seems to lack the consistency of Tolkien. They seem to have simply decided to write a story that deviated from Tolkien, where there was no information so that they can include the information they wanted. Example it's just going to be a big political statement...

@Balandrus Жыл бұрын

It's somewhat of a mix. They're using material that's available in the appendices of Return of the King. However, they don't have access to any of the completed material in The Silmarillian or Legendarium. They've stated multiple times they're "writing the story Tolkien never did." The show is going to be compressing ~2000 years of history into about 5 years, while changing everything and making up new characters and things along the way. This is pure narcissism and the intent to push their ideology. These people do not care about Tolkien, otherwise they wouldn't have fired Tom Shippey.

@pwmiles56 Жыл бұрын

Consistency is a good choice of word. It's what he said himself: Fantasy must have "the inner consistency of reality" -- On Fairy-stories

@thecollector6746 Жыл бұрын

Tolkien was consistently non-consistent....he wrote addendums to and scrapped entire ideas altogether, all the time.....i.e....he constantly updated/changed/changed-again/switched-back-to-original-ideas in his legendarium ALL TH TIME...you know why? Because this is FSKING FICTION. It's made made up...ALL OF IT. So yeah...this constant bitching and moaning about PoC being featured as main characters IN FSCKING 2022 is nothing more than Nerd Cookies trying to cash in on the perpetual COLORED PEOPLE IN MY FAVORITE MAKE BELIEVE MAKES ME CRY machine; and it's fscking disgusting. I expected better from her.

@Balandrus Жыл бұрын

@@thecollector6746 Congrats, your comment is shadow banned by KZfaq. I'm sure you would be totally OK with Sub-Saharan African folklore casting white people in key roles, huh?

@thecollector6746 Жыл бұрын

@@Balandrus STFU mouth breather..and guess what shit for brains...pretty much the entire history of PoC in Film involves white actors being cast in HISTORICAL roles of people who werent white...funny how you mouth breathers were and continue to be no where to be found in those situations.

@anarionelendili8961 Жыл бұрын

Spot on criticism delivered calmly. I am here for it, and this summarized my own feelings about the series pretty much perfectly.

@twelve11 Жыл бұрын

My biggest frustration with Hollywood right now is the way they cannot come up with new content, new characters and new stories, so instead destroy the vision, the legacy and the source material of existing properties. Nobody would have a problem seeing diverse casting of elves or a warrior elf if this had absolutely nothing to do with the world Tolkein created. A fine example would be the final fantasy game series where they create a whole new world every game: new characters, new storylines, new lore. Simple.

@mumenrider2481 Жыл бұрын

Maybe we could use the term "Tolkiod" to refer to how Tolkien this show is. I have been delighted to hear your feelings about this show. I look forward to hearing more.

@darthsilversith667 Жыл бұрын

Nothing about this show is “Tolkien”.

@iandennis7836 Жыл бұрын

Or perhaps Tolkienesque, as in" we like the ideas of Tolkien but we're doing something that bears a faint resemblance to the original but isn't actually (Tolkien). Rather like a copycat crime......which is certainly what they appear to have done.

@mumenrider2481 Жыл бұрын

@@iandennis7836 how about Tolkiensteinian? As in we made a monstrosity out the good parts of someone else's work.

@iandennis7836 Жыл бұрын

@@mumenrider2481 yup, better than my effort. I concede!

@thestanleys3657 Жыл бұрын

Use the names like Galadrial Elrond etc make up the rest

@richardrose2606 Жыл бұрын

Kudos! This is an excellent video and has some information, such as the details about what Tom Shippey said, that was new to me. In a relatively short video you presented a lot of information and some good arguments. You got a new subscription. Keep up the good work.

@bocktordaytona5656 Жыл бұрын

It's curious I remember that before the pandemic I was really interested in ww1 so I watched with my father the film 1917 and when the film ended we both discussed how the film remember us the lord of the rings and the story of Frodo and Sam... And I also remember how not lord of the rings was to me every single trailer of this show just generic high fantasy... And each time they said "tolkinean" or say "hobbits". To me are just them trying to convince themselves that they are in fact doing something related to Tolkien or the lord of the rings. And it's just curious how a ww1 film about two trench runners gives me more "tolkinean vibes" than a show that it's actually called "the rings of power".

@projectinlinesix Жыл бұрын

It always seems that interviews covering situations like this are carefully manicured, well-spun affairs where both the interviewer and interviewee are pushing the same narrative, which makes me think I'm being sold something. Your videos, on the other hand, always do more to truly elucidate the situation by keeping your analysis factual and objective. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and thank you for the excellent content!

@shanenolan8252 Жыл бұрын

I think they have taken diabolical liberties with this project

@Bigpandazomg Жыл бұрын

I always get so excited whenever you get a shoutout on FNT, love your work!!

@alistairjclark2433 Жыл бұрын

Honestly you are the only content creator I will watch regarding this show everyone else just makes cringe hate filled remarks. Everyone else seems obsessed with farming hate videos on it for views with little to no real research on the lore seems like their knowledge is the LoTR films at best.

@chaiam Жыл бұрын

Please link the articles? Great video

@CounciloftheRings Жыл бұрын

Excellent video! Well done 👍

@TarekAliFazle Жыл бұрын

The only analysis I've seen so far that examines the literary basis of this new series, and challenges the level of respect the showrunners showed the source material, and the author himself. Credibility of show shattered.

@grahamcann1761 Жыл бұрын

Alas I fear we'll once-again be reminded of the lesson: Sharing of an authors story does well, when you stick as close as possible to the authors work, but when you "make it your own", you fail. As those who did the Wheel of Time, and Discworld stories (among many others) learned. As always thank you so very much for the video.

@starlimitz2 Жыл бұрын

Very good video essay. I love how you take such an objective approach to contradicting Amazon's disaster of a show in the making. If I were to be in a court case against this show for their statement of being "Tolkienian", this would be exibit A.

@your-average-patriot-nerd146 Жыл бұрын

Great Video as always 👍.

@AK-kj6xu Жыл бұрын

Great video!

@connerdenton4239 Жыл бұрын

Well said Cookies. I find it disturbingly odd what has been said from cast and crew on this matter, as it points more toward excitement over something newly created versus admiration for material being adapted.

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

It is sad to see professionals look at the majesty and beauty of JRRT's vast creation, take a deep breath, and say "yeah, all of this needs to be changed."

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 If you don't like the story, don't make it into a movie. It is no more complicated than that. Don't decide that JRRT was inadequate as a world-builder, start cramming in the political issues of the current day.

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 If they knew out was going to be a dud, they should have stopped before they wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on it. Surgeons aren't measured by how hard they tried. They are measured by whether they succeeded. Cooks measured by how much they wanted the good to be good. They are measured by how well their food was received. The people that wasted these years and all this money were given a clear choice. They could serve the story or they could focus on cramming their politics into every single aspect of the show. They chose the dogma. They chose to make progressive propaganda. They disrespected basic storytelling, forced unnecessary crap into the show. Now they are facing the natural, foreseeable, and justified consequences of that choice. Could not care less how upset these show creators are. They did all of this to themselves.

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 I am not worried about whether this show will make money. What I care about, as I said at the very start, is that people who don't like or understand the source material are taking over and jamming their politics and their ideology into the show. If this show turns out great, then great. But EVERY SINGLE THING they have released about the series so far indicates that it will be a steaming pile of dog crap. Had the producers and Amazon wanted to appeal to Tolkien fans, they could have. Their statements and promotional material focus on how they are "fixing" Tolkien's inadequacies.

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 Thank you for proving my point. Your desire for this show to succeed blinds you to the basic question of whether it is actually good. Thinking that I'm somehow on top reveals a pure Marxist worldview. It's about power, not about entertainment. And, as if it mattered, I've never been on top and I'm used to being the only person that thinks something. Doesn't make me wrong.

@treydixon5399 Жыл бұрын

@@Madame702 I don't care how many people agree with me. I gave my opinion, based on my reading and what I've seen from the show runners. That is it.

@friedrudibega6384 Жыл бұрын

Some people destroy everything they’re involved in.

@mimih23 Жыл бұрын

The showrunners probably never expected this level of critique so I hope that they watch and take heed.

@memyself1448 Жыл бұрын

Could not possibly agree with you more. Also, I absolutely love your channel

@patmullarkey7659 Жыл бұрын

Totally agree. Fine analysis. Thanks Nerd Cookies!

@Black-Re4per Жыл бұрын

What's crazy about this whole Dumpster Fire is that they must deliver 5 Seasons, as that is what the contract says, a massive waste of money. So get ready for 5 Seasons full of Trash.

@SAINTOBVIOUS Жыл бұрын

excellent video. very well done! thank you. 👏🏼💯

@Age_of_Apocalypse Жыл бұрын

Millions of people loved Peter Jackson's trilogy because it was close and respectful to Tolkien universe, but it isn't what Amazon is doing and they're probably what they've done will most likely have a very small audience. By the way, loved your comments! 👏👏😍

@dannyg4383 Жыл бұрын

But J.R.R. Tolkiens son didn't like Peter Jacksons movies because the thought of them as not respectful to the books. What do you think about that? The LOTR movies left a lot of the books out, there was time compression too, and they changed some of the characters too. I guess we should judge when the show is out.

@Age_of_Apocalypse Жыл бұрын

@@dannyg4383 After "Rings of Power", his son will probably say: "you know what, Peter Jackson's trilogy was fantastic!". 😉

@MrBDB001 Жыл бұрын

Amazon just bought the Name. They upgraded the packaging with all the old ingredients on display but as you find out, this is a whole new product and bears no resemblance to the original product. They want you to buy it but they don't make it for you. They have made it for themselves and they are quite pleased with their effort. "A fantasy world grounded in todays world" brilliant.

@guyswartwood3924 Жыл бұрын

I appreciate your approach on expressing why the rings of power isn't a Tolkien story. Other KZfaq creators have expressed the same opinions but do not express it with the same logic. They usually point out the woke messaging put into the show and also attack the show runners decisions that push DEI into the show (beardless black female dwarves, etc). Although they may have good points, I appreciate evidence based around the writings of JRRT and examining the quotes by the show runners vs common perception)

@bry8636 Жыл бұрын

Galadriel was Tolkien’s quintessential pacifist. It wasn’t an accident that she abstained from every war against Morgoth in the first age and then continued that mindset in the second age. Galadriel’s pacifism is largely why Tolkien attributes her with so much wisdom. Yes, Galadriel knows the ravages and destruction of war as well as anyone. She knows it so well it defines her character. Galadriel has a sort of subtle prescience in her own right, a la Paul. Thus the mirror. The machinations of Galadriel work to avert the paths that lead to war. She subverts war. A warrior queen is the antithesis of what Galadriel was. And that is true going as far back as the first age. Galadriel had already lived through an age of literally earth reshaping war in the first age by the time of this series. So even the notion that Galadriel evolved into the pacifist through being a warrior queen in the 2A is just a complete disregard for what was written. Tolkien rewrote Galadriel’s storyline 3 or 4 times. And with each subsequent rendition, she was more of a pacifist than the last. This was very important to Tolkien as he probably spent more time on Galadriel’s and Feanor’s timeline than anyone else. Yes, yes, I know, ‘Amazonian disposition’ And? That ignores her entire character arc from the FA through the 3rd.

@mikiroony Жыл бұрын

Just the day I run out of popcorn to watch this video... :)

@Darkwintre Жыл бұрын

Should have focused on an area where Tolkien didn't write about, but they'd still need Tom Shippey's help to keep it as "Tolkienian" as possible. They fired him and when they said it was a Harfoot story and not a Hobbit story when Harfoots are a type of Hobbit. Dear lord who did their research?!

@davidjuby7392 Жыл бұрын

the showrunners summed this up in one of their first press releases when they said that this is the story that Tolkien never wrote. No truer words have ever been spoken.

@gariongama Жыл бұрын

Imagine the gaul and hubris it takes to see the professors work as an opportunity as a, "necessary redress of history". The narcissism and ego is astounding. Reflective writing is only "reflecting" the showrunners inability to imagine a world that doesn't revolve around them.

@annejeppesen160 Жыл бұрын

I can't quite decide whether to watch my extended dvds or cinematic dvds in response to the premiere of ROP.....

@Sorrowfulsoull Жыл бұрын

If John and Christopher Tolkien were still alive, they would spit in both JD Payne and Patrick McKay's faces! John Tolkien made it very clear how he felt about others taken his works and dissecting it into their own interpretations. John Tolkien was a literary genius! I put him right up there with Shakespeare. How disappointing!

@smoore6461 Жыл бұрын

You are as usual 100% accurate with your interpretation IMO this show is about as Tolkinian as Game of Thrones! They share a genre, loosely that's where they seem to end!! They canned Shippy to break away from what they had agreed to a long time ago. If Christoper were alive and well today, this show would be scuttled. Gladeial is probably one of the most grating and offensive "lies" to me along with Hobbits and Harfoot not being the same damn thing!! I can even swallow my bile for a dwarf with heightened melanin regardless of how foolish it is that a being that lives underground would have EVER developed that genetic trait! You are absolutely accurate that all of this lip service to being Tolkiniean is a shield and why they axed shippy and paid off the "Tolkien scholars" and estate to let them pervert the professors work!! You are one of the most level headed and accurate youtuber talking About this and i respect your gentle pressure against this show even while I am in the same camp as Disparu who says this show is a dumpster Fire!!!!

@jamesverhoff1899 Жыл бұрын

What strikes me about all of this is that Tolkien gave every excuse necessary to make stuff up and alter the story. LOTR was created, not as a factual book, but as a pretend translation of a book of myths and legends; Tolkien admitted that he is an unreliable narrator. This also means that it's likely that other books of legends exist. Numenor was certainly the primary focus of events, but that doesn't mean there wasn't other stuff going on. Entire kingdoms could have risen and fallen in Middle Earth while Sauron and the Valar were focused on Numenor. What was Lothlorien doing? What was Mirkwood doing? What were the orcs doing? For that matter, what was going on in Harad? Start the series with Merry and Pippen bringing a book to Sam. Have Sam say something like "There's a lot not mentioned in this book." Have Merry and Pippen say "Yes, well, there's a lot we couldn't fit in, and a lot we couldn't make sense of." Maybe have them pull out some notes or a half-burned book or something. Fade to title screen. Then DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, within the limits Tolkien has established. In one scene you've established the connection to LOTR, you've established provenance, and you've established that this story will be different. (In this case the age of the actors works in your favor--it establishes that this is happening well after the War of the Rings.) The fact that the showrunners can't think of such a simple solution to the "problems" their facing does not speak well of their respect for Tolkien's works or their creativity.

@robertsosna3994 Жыл бұрын

I would watch a show as you just described. To have such familiar and beloved characters stand in for fans I find appealing. Sam Merry and Pippin would make a great combo of storytellers.

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

'This also means that it's likely that other books of legends exist.' Isn't that really what The History of Middle Earth is? The 12 Volume set. It's how I see it.

@jamesverhoff1899 Жыл бұрын

@@varsityathlete9927 My take on it, given what Tolkien was doing, is that his works can justifiably be viewed as one line of thought on the history of Middle Earth. His writings were, in-universe, the book Bilbo and Frodo wrote, supplemented by material Merry and Pippen found in Gondor. While Gondor is powerful, I find it unlikely that they're the only ones recording history. It's justifiable to assume that there are other works on this topic in-universe. I mean, the Numenorian libraries are totally gone except for a few fragments Gondor held onto; who knows what they held? For that matter, who knows what information Sauron had that's now accessible after the War of the Ring? Those could provide justification for the TV series (if the show runners cared about Tolkien's work), as well as providing justification for any inconsistencies (because written histories of that time weren't consistent).

@kathleenhensley5951 Жыл бұрын

Well said... I am always surprised the variety and understanding of all my fellow fans of Tolkien. No, this isn't Tolkienian ... The first big issue is their version of Galadriel, so I will speak of that. She wanted to rule but there is no sign that she wanted to fight. She ruled with her husband, Celeborn for many centuries. They are the perfect example of a powerful blending of male and female energy, intelligence .. This is the bigger issue in our culture at this time. For some reason Hollywood and the SJWs want women to become men to have 'agency' (their word not mine.). In their world view there is only one kind of power... the power to be king, to be a conqueror. In my own life, I used to envy men their ability to go out and do 'great things' but as I grew older I realized that a woman's journey is, also, an adventure. I didn't have to become my husband to learn what I needed to know to defend myself, for instance. I know how to defend myself, if I must. I know how to run my tractor, etc. That isn't the issue. Hollywood seems to absolutely reject the feminine archetypes of womanhood - mother, queen, wife, goddess, source of mortal life, gatherer, artisan, healer .. they think those names (energy/archetypes) demeans women, but they don't. They can't seem to accept that those archetypes are just as important as father, king, husband, god, source of moral and social power, warrior, wizard, hunter. Men and women balance each other, they are like two sides of a traditional scales. Women don't have to become warriors to be powerful and have agency. We are powerful in our own way. We are the doorway into mortal life, we have our own chores, our own deeds AND we are powerful, but, in a different way then men.

@GrayghostAlpha Жыл бұрын

I had been planning on watching ROP to judge for myself, but after seeing the promotional material I've decided to pass. This video perfectly articulates why that's the right call for fans of Tolkien.

@paulcrawford5437 Жыл бұрын

Now we know why they have the parameters of the 2nd age only, thank Tolkien they can't touch the First Age. They would probably have made Faenor a flower power hippie and Fingolfin a weak cowardly hermit....... and that's just to begin with.

@truechaos6927 Жыл бұрын

This is 100% Amazon original show with all original characters, the only thing that can be said to be Tolkien is some of the names used for characters but those characters bear absolutely no resemblance to the Tolkien characters they are named after. The show should contain a disclaimer saying "Any resemblance between these characters and real and better written Tolkien characters is purely coincidence and unintended"

@fryingscotsmanful Жыл бұрын

They have done something similar with wheel of time

@nightgoblin29 Жыл бұрын

haha "supposed" Middle Earth series! I love it, thank you for this :)

@thangorodrim6302 Жыл бұрын

As a big Tolkien Fan, this was the research i were hoping the show runners would have put into their work. This Video was just brilliant. If i knew you, my lady, i would ask for three strings of your heir to integrate them into a crystal

@richardrose2606 Жыл бұрын

I think her "heirs" might object to that."

@thangorodrim6302 Жыл бұрын

@@richardrose2606 lol, i see it. hahaha, not gonna change it though, its too funny XD

@richardrose2606 Жыл бұрын

@@thangorodrim6302 Damn that auto- correct!

@The_Sisyphean Жыл бұрын

Nice work, Nerd Cookies.😎

@Jim-Tuner Жыл бұрын

Its not based on Tolkien. The short timeline material in the appendices to Lord of the Rings isn't something that can be adapted into a multiple-season show. Its ultimately fan-fiction rather than an adaptation of Tolkien.

@ecurb10 Жыл бұрын

I agree 100% with your analysis here Nerd Cookies. What I'd like to know is what the Tolkien estate is saying about it - surely they wouldn't be happy?

@chaiam Жыл бұрын

Apparently they are the ones who courted Amazon, after receiving pitches from other studios that they allegedly didn't like as much. Both the (real) Tolkien's are dead, John and Christopher, his grandson prefers the money it seems. The estate did get 250 mil, so...

@didiosthrance Жыл бұрын

I'm hesitant to even watch at this point. I was always of the mind that I'll have to judge it once out but based off so many videos like this and now some of the actors etc pretty much saying they are re-painting said character/story or whatever it heavily feels like this will be an agenda driven show that's not threaded together into a streamlined show/story.

@mcrugin8817 Жыл бұрын

On the one hand, it is extremely disappointing to hear that they've basically disregarded the source material. I think we all wanted something more in line with Tolkien's vision. But on the other hand, I had a blast playing Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War, so as long as you approach the work in the understanding that it's NOT meant to be canon, I can stomach it, maybe even enjoy it.

@ThatJediReviews Жыл бұрын

Please do more LOTR stuff. I'm loving this. You debunking their nonsense.

@normis6620 Жыл бұрын

In the end, "Tolkenian" refers to anything they think it may be, a buzz-word they use to appear as if they are faithful to the source material

@TheBirchView Жыл бұрын

Neither was Jacksons, but that won't stop me from enjoying it.

@JamesLaserpimpWalsh Жыл бұрын

I've come to terms with the thing. It has "Based on the works of....." which means to me that they are publicly showing that this is fanfic. They have given us this and I am happy with the terms. My logic being that the Hercules teevee show didn't somehow lessen Homer's works. Get what I'm driving at ? Cheers for the vid Elaine.

@shanenolan8252 Жыл бұрын

Thanks elaine

@kenaustinardenol1338 Жыл бұрын

The everlasting discussion between book and screen. In the end the only question remain is: do you like it or dont you? Especially in the world of Fantasy this discussion can be very heated, because Fantasy fans can be very hardcore. I am just gonna enjoy it 🙂

@Unpainted_Huffhines Жыл бұрын

Thank you for the honesty. It's good to see a KZfaqr who turned down the Amazin bribes to play up this garbage show.

@xLeeroycranex Жыл бұрын

Glad you're not trying to frame these issues within the confines of the culture war. I very much dislike woke stuff, certainly, but many of those videos are overly toxic and obnoxious. Great video

@JohnFourtyTwo Жыл бұрын

Go back to the book is the same as "let's circle back to that later" or "a story for another time" in other words, stop asking me these questions because I'm not going to answer them. I'm really curious to who the Tolkien scholars were the consulted with because Peter Jackson clearly said they didn't contact him, Fran Walsh, or Phillipa Boyens.🤔 This is just one huge dumpster fire waiting to explode 🗑🔥💥 Another great video Elaine and looking forward to your next one. 👍🤓🍪✨

@anthonykent00 Жыл бұрын

I'm not hopeful, but like Starship Troopers, it's possible to create something good in a similar, but completely separate universe to the canon. * fingers crossed *

@jeffreyrepass6834 Жыл бұрын

Awesome take Cookies! To me, this is nothing but a cash grab off of the Professors name and his works. When I first heard and seen that Galadriel was to be an angry warrior and then in the latest trailer she’s meeting Tal Mariel and seeing a Palantir, I knew that this is going to be a hard show to watch. I’m going to give it a try, we shall see.

@clarkstartrek Жыл бұрын

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT. IT'S NOT TOLKIEN!

@EdwardLewisIV Жыл бұрын

One would be unwise to disregard the abundant frustration and criticism of Nerd Cookies. NC doesn't rage lightly. I am shook. (I also completely agree with her).

@Eliphas_Leary Жыл бұрын

Sounds like the last seasons of Game Of Thrones all over again.

@mythosboy Жыл бұрын

Any adaption has to take liberties: that is the nature of this pecular business. The question remains, will th3e balance of these liberties tell a good story, while expanding the creative mythos of the Legendarium. I am willing to forgive a lot for the first point, and even more for the harder second point. I just don't think either are in the cards this time. I would be delighted to be proved wrong, however. Thanks for a well done and well thought out video.

@mikestanmore2614 Жыл бұрын

I'd like to see Tom Shippey's version of how closely Dumb & Dumber 2 worked with Tolkien scholars.

@Kelnor277 Жыл бұрын

Guys, I got this idea for a mega epic. It’s going to cover Paris and Helen, the fall of troy the odyssey and the aeniad. I’m going to condense it into a short poem but it’ll still be epic because it’s based on those epics. That’s how that works right? Guys?

@rexmundi3108 Жыл бұрын

My impression is that they have tried to replicate the visual style of Jackson's movies to make a space into which they can draw viewers to see thier stories. THEIR stories. Not Tolkien's, not in fact or in spirit, only in a superficial way that is largely a rejection of his work. "Oh it's only fantasy, the details can be changed". The lack of respect conveyed by that kind of statement is...breathtaking.

@jannielsen664 Жыл бұрын

Great video 😁👌 I dont like what they are doing to the timeline, with the hobbits, galadriel and my list goes on....

@kingerz Жыл бұрын

I agree 💗

@unvunb7157 Жыл бұрын

May Carcharoth haunt their dreams

@PaulJohn01 Жыл бұрын

Ah finally your eyes are being opened to what this show is really about, the closer we get to launch and the more people hear from the cast/crew/producers the harder it is to hide that they plan to do as much damage to the memory of JRR Tolkien and his works as possible.

@Jbickley00 Жыл бұрын

I doubt very much Tolkien and his works could be damaged by anything Amazon does - Tolkien exists only in his writings, and people will always be able to read those.

@Davepool-hs7vr Жыл бұрын

Can you do a video on how Saruman became evil please

@deanlawson6880 Жыл бұрын

Okay.. Well fine.. All that said, "Tolkeinien" or not. I'm still going to watch it and I will also most likely enjoy it. Does that make me "non-Tolkeinien"?? This whole line of thought and contrarian disagreement sounds just like the people in the Star Trek community who dislike Star Trek: Strange New Worlds or other current ongoing "Trek" shows because they aren't somehow "Canon" or they are otherwise very bad no good somehow.. With all due respect, why can we not all just enjoy the new Tolkein-inspired show we will soon see, as the entertainment and (I guess) "Fan Fiction" that it appears to be. In my opinion, the fault-finding and "pickery" at this or that uber-fine minutiae/detail takes away and just feels like it diminishes the whole "Tolkeinien" mythos and universe. Please don't anyone misunderstand my point of view and criticism here. Everyone everywhere is certainly entitled to think what they will of this effort, that's everyone's prerogative for sure. I guess one of the things to consider when going down this path of "pickery" is maybe, "What would Tolkein think"?? Would he approve of others wanting to expand on his world in areas that he (Tolkein) himself didn't expand on? The different ages from the first age all they way through the eons to the end of the third age give *very* ample opportunity to write and expand where Tolkein himself didn't. Are we going to criticize every single effort to pay homage to Tolkein by those who write for this awesome universe suffering withering criticism every time they try?? Well?? Sorry for the long-winded "rant" here. I generally love all of the Nerd Cookies we get to enjoy for all of the Sci-Fi and fantasy worlds covered. I just had to put out there a point of view that I don't see very often - Just my take on it -

@londomolari5715 Жыл бұрын

They screwed up big time by not getting the rights to the Silmarilion and the Book of Lost Tales I & II. How can you truly tell a second age story with out the source material?

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

I think of it the other way around, we lucked out they didn't get more material to mess up.

@rockyblacksmith Жыл бұрын

"How can you truly tell a second age story with out the source material?" Oh I can think of a way: Set it somewhere Tolkien didn't write much about. Like, say, Harad.

@bry8636 Жыл бұрын

They didn’t really want them. They wanted a space ‘to create their own story’. They never wanted to depict the Silmarillion

@varsityathlete9927 Жыл бұрын

@@bry8636 Silmarillion is not the book getting adapted. I think you made a typo.

@bry8636 Жыл бұрын

@@varsityathlete9927 I’m aware they’re not adapting the Silmarillion. My point is that they didn’t even want the Silmarillion to begin with precisely because it is a fully flushed out story. Well, at least relative to the appendices. Amazon’s showrunners have stated repeatedly they wanted to write their own story. That can’t be done with the Silmarillion. Certainly not to the extent they’re taking rings of power. That is, Amazon wanted something with huge gaps of unexplored, unwritten territory in order to create their own epic within middle earth. And the Appendices suits that premise to a T. Simon Tolkien is now the chief executor of the Tolkien estate. If you know anything about the disgruntled and resentful son of Christopher, who is now pursuing status, fame and wealth in SoCal, then you’ll know that the rights to the Silmarillion will inevitably be sold in Simon’s lifetime. He is not going to miss out on that type of wealth. The only reason Tolkien’s other works were so well guarded was because Christopher, a wonderful man dedicated to preserving his father’s legacy, would never allow it. Sadly, there are no guardians left at the Tolkien estate. They’re just as materialistic and as vapid as the rest of southern Californian societal hierarchy.

@necrosunderground Жыл бұрын

I remember when they first announced this series, I was cautiously optimistic; everything that's come out since has just pushed me past "turned off" to "completely against". Everything I've seen to date reeks of desperately trying to legitimize their bastardization of Tolkien's work. They really just had an idea for a show, swiped some recognizable names and events, and tried to package it with the Tolkien label. The irony is, if Amazon had brokered a deal with Wizards of the Coast and based this show on Dungeons and Dragons, they could have taken almost every element that's drawn the ire of Tolkien fans, and created something brand new (relatively speaking) and it would have worked, as long as the writing, acting, etc., was good, and it would have likely had a lot stronger support. But this is the route they chose to take, and I hope it bites them in the Precious. The best (and I use that term loosely) we're likely to get is George RR Tolkien's "The Lord of the Thrones: A Game of Rings", with all the quality of the last two seasons of GoT, and continued gaslighting of the fanbase, saying it's all our fault when this thing bombs harder than Hiroshima.