Never underestimate those "outdated" black pills. 200g at 1400fps is a lot of angst packed into a small space.

Never heard of a wadcutter projectile being called a lead flap point either. Got my first rifle at age 12 and now I am 81.

really like your channel, shot bp a ton as a kid got distracted when girls first came into the picture but started watching you and 11 bang bang a year ago and got my own muzzleloaders again. Thanks for reigniting the interest!

Boy, those 30 grain loads were sweet and a perfect day for the smoke to linger

I've never heard of wadcutters being referred to as "Lead Flat Point" , they've always just been called "Wadcutters" as far as I recall. I've only been working off & on in gunshops since 1981 though & only been loading my own for a few years. People just like to argue I guess. 😂

Loading 44-40, never had one but knew people with them. The short of it is loading with 3F and a long drop tube, in the neighborhood of 30" or vibrating down, they were using less than 40 grains, one of these fellows had old balloon heads that would take 40 gr. with ease. One of the fellows I knew used wheel weights exclusively, others used soft lead and firmed it up with extra tin or a little WW's. Soft was not used too much in rifle loads due to leading.

I learned the hard way about desperado cowboy bullets being too soft. I wouldn't even recommend them for 1000fps. More like 800-900fps. If you remember our emails, your the one who helped me figure it out. Awesome video by the way

Man, I love this channel. In a MANLY WAY, of course!!

Thanks for sharing!! Your videos have continued to elevate the understanding behind BP and loads. Keep up the great work!!

You are going to love that 44-40!

Fun stuff and very interesting and informative. Thanks!

Thanks for another great video and by the way, you are correct about your bullet description. A full wad cutter looks like a 55 gallon drum. The semi has a short, stubby nose and what you were shooting is a round nosed flat point end of story. Keep these great videos coming.

Fantastic as always sir! You’re the man. Man.

Outstanding!! Keep up the great work 👍 Cheers !!

Good stuff. An 1866 in 44-40 is on my wish list. And some brass for it!

There's a sight called "chasing the 44-40 , a few guys ( long term testing and research ) broke down loads ( originals ) and compiled a many paged archive of the 44-40 from 1873 to early smokeless and the "high velocity" loads , a very invaluable resource for early cartridges . The soft bullets need sized larger , and also check your cases , make sure your not sizing down those 44cal bullets , softest lead can be fired fairly fast upwards 1400fps , your bullets too small for your bore

The .44 WCF (.44-40) is the only time, pre the short lived John Browning era (which Winchester inevitably pounded off), was one of the few times they actually got it right!

A couple of years ago i decided I wanted to shoot my 1873 rifle. To effect that I ordered a bag of Starline brass and cast up some some bullets using the original Winchester mold I also have. I loaded those cartridges with 38 grains of FFg Goex. I have only shot 12 of the 100 I loaded. After that I decided to see about loading some smokeless cartridges. The original Winchester bullet does not work with a smokeless. The original bullet does not have a cannelure groove to crimp the case mouth into to keep the bullet from recessing into the case. With a black powder charge the bullet sits on top of the powder. I then ordered a Lee 429-214-SWC mold. Under that bullet I loaded 5.9 grains of Red Dot. A nice plinking round. The lube I have been using is Lee Liquid ALOX. I have used an 1882 tool to load the original bullets and black powder. Although I find it a bit easier to use my Lee press. The rifle and original reloading tools I have had since the late 1960’s, but the person we inherited it from did not have the opportunity to teach me how to clean up a firearm after shooting black powder before cancer took him. I knew the process was different than smokeless. The last six years have been a marvelous learning experience. Thank you KZfaq.

Good video 44 40 is a beast!!

Great info as always thanks

Very interesting bullets. Might be a good choice for use in revolvers especially since so many handguns (looking at you Ruger) seem to have a hard time getting chamber dimensions right in WCF and 45 Colt chamberings.

I may have to try some smokeless in my big 50 at some point. So clean, so quiet.

Great video buddy!! Thanks!!

Always interesting... always informative.

Great Video Love the 44-40 .Have Ubreti 1873 with 30 barrell two inch groups no cleaning between shots 36 grains of 2 ff Swiss 1-20 lead & tin mix 100 yards .. Cheers from Australia

I miss my original Winchester 1873 .38-40 I had. I have a Miroku Winchester 1866 copy that's a lot of fun to shoot, but there's something about the original guns. A local gun shop has a repop 1873 in .45 Colt but someone took out the half cock notch, other than that it's a nice gun. One thing I love is those old original Winchester rounds, the .44-40, .38-40 with black powder, they sound just like the old rounds they used for sound effects in the old western movies.

I have an old loading data insert that came with Lee 44-40 dies. It has a number of smokeless loads that get you up to 12-1300fps. My favorite is a 240gr cast lead with 23.7 grains of Reloader 7.

Good video. Thanks

I hope this is a help. I only shoot soft lead in my muzzle loaders and my grandfather's Winchester (Win. 44) shoots 40gr. of Goex just fine. 200gr. (hard) lead. I believe Swift and others are of a much better quality than 150yrs. ago and I like that. Also I use a drop tube on just about all my cartridges. I have been using this load and method for 50+ yrs. Enjoyed the video. Good luck, keep us informed.

I've had the same results with those desperado bullets. They are a good company and have great shipping speed, but those bullets are pretty much meant for smokeless. That hard blue lube does nothing with black. The fouling hardens very quickly and the gun becomes very inaccurate after only a dozen shots or so. I've switched to exclusively 20-1 alloy (pretty soft), but with SPG lube. Man, that stuff is great. No leading and it keeps the fouling soft for a really long time so accuracy stays good all day. I use a big lube design from NOE molds that carries a ton of grease and it works great. I've never pushed them to 40 grains but with about 33 grains they stay very clean and leading free with SPG, and no need for a card between the bullet and powder. Another great video, thanks!

I agree with you on both the case capacity and the lead flat point nomenclature. I love my 1873 carbine and since I got it, it has seen exactly 50 rounds of factory ammo because I needed to cases only. I have found that 27.2 grains of reloader 7 with the 200 gr soft lead flat point l print dead on poa at 100 yards and give me sweet little group right at 2 inches so long as I do my part. It prints almost exactly the same to its favorite BP load of 32 gr of FFFg equivalent Shutzen with the same .427 soft cast lead round nose with 5gr by volume of grits topped off between the powder and bullet to give the powder good compression. Both loads are very similar speed wise with them both being in the neighborhood of 1175 +/-. The BP loads tend to give the tighter velocity spread but poi has no noticeable change, at least not with my older eyes.

I’ve heard the desperado bullets are best for cowboy action. Cowboy loads are light and the targets for matches are usually pretty close. So maybe that’s why they are made so soft? I don’t know. What I do know, is that your videos are awesome and I look forward to them!

Another great video!

LFP is the right term. Also, TC (truncated cone).

From what you presented, the 30 load looks like the best combo of power and acceleration. Throwing out the 1205 load, it was the most consistent

Yes, I can fit 40 gr. of 2F Goex in a modern 44WCF case but I have a Colt Frontier six shooter manufactured in 1894 and when I fire them through that I can't eject the cartridges using the ejector rod. I have to use a dowel and drive them out with a hammer. I like Hodgeson Triple 7 FFG. They recommend reducing the load by about 15% which I do. I use 35 gr. by volume which leaves just enough room in the case for the bullet to reach the powder, gives me the approximate velocity of the original black powder load, has no problems extracting normally, and is an easier clean up.

In my youth there were 2 types of .44-40 ammo, a low pressure variant for old SAA pistols and a higher pressure load for rifles only. Your test of 30 gr. vs .40 gr. of 3F reminds me of that.

Looking forward to the comparison of hard cast bullets with 30gr and 40gr bp. The speed of the 40gn was pretty impressive, and without the leading im sure the accuracy would improve…some. Great video! Love that 1873!

I was talking to a guy who claims to get 90 grains of black powder in his 44 magnum Blackhawk, told me 45 colt shouldn’t fit more than 35 grains. I kept it to myself that I thought he was mistaken in the numbers. Asked about his set up for getting 90 grains of black powder in a 44 magnum brass, and he said he’s never loaded black powder brass in his life, just packs the cylinder on a ruger Blackhawk and by black powder he uses triple seven. Some people really believe the words coming out of their mouths. It’s such a blessing when you meet a black powder enthusiast that is humble and really knows what they are talking about. It’s even better when you meet a black powder enthusiast that is insane and breaks all the rules for fun.

Great vidio sir very interesting thank you have a great weekend and be safe out there

Nice video. I wasn't surprised at the amount of lead you had to deal with when you cleaned the gun. Soft lead will do that, as I found out by going cheap and casting soft lead semi wad cutters for my .45 1911. 🙂

Great video

Great video Jake! My 44wcf journey started out several years ago when I bought my first 73. That gun turned 144 years old this past August. My bore slugged out to .433” though, so I had to use soft lead with black powder so the lead could expand to fill the rifling. Your barrel being .425” is interesting though. Since you said it started out as a 38wcf, they either rebarreled it or bore out the original and then sleeved it I’m guessing. But I’ve never had a problem getting 40 grains of BP in any of my cases either. I compress the load down to where the bullet just touched the top of the powder and then a little more compression with the bullet. Now I use a bullet from Accurate Molds which has a wide lube groove, and I’ve never had any issues with leading and I’m pushing them at around 1300 as well. The bullet mold is 43-215C. I lube it up with SPG and to date I have loved it. No leading and the extra lube definitely helps with fouling. But if you’re ever inclined to get rid of that 73, reach out to me. I’m alway up to a challenge. 😉

You know, the whole knit picking over bullet names is petty. You described it just fine. Technically the guy criticizing you was wrong. Wadcutters, also referred to as full wadcutters are literally lead cylinders and do not extend beyond the end of the cartridge in many instances. They are most often used for shooting matches as they leave a clean hole in paper targets for easy judgement calls. Semi wadcutter rounds are usually flat point, extend outward in a cone shape into the cylindrical body and lube grooves and will pretty much always extend beyond the mouth of the cartridge. Round nose flat point bullets or flat ball bullets are only slightly different from semi wad cutters and make little to no difference for anyone who isn't knit picking. You are doing fine, ignore the angry nay sayers.

Thank you.

Surprisingly efficient, and powerful for a black powder cartridge. More powerful than a 10mm out of the rifle. I wouldn't blame the 40 grain powder charge for the accuracy either. As you said it's the bullet construction.

Hahaha...looks like the 38 caliber semi-wadcutters I used to have for my 38 special revolver. They were excellent for my pistol. Mine however was modern smokeless as the pistol was too. I still like those for the 38 special.

I love the 44-40, it is a great round out to about 100 yards. I use 10:1 lead mixture. In my 1892 they are very accurate. I loaded per my manual i use 3 f and i can hit out to 30 yards with it tin cans, beyond that it is a bit hit or miss due to some of the cast bullets RNFP being a bit imperfect in balance. It would be better if I weighed them and removed the imperfect but not visible bad ones

Awesome Video Thanks for sharing! I have the same rifle & its a lot of fun to shoot. BTW, that excessive leading/fouling you got, most likely comes from those specific bullets, meaning, they were constructed with a "smokeless (Blue) lube, not necessarily designed to be used with black powder, i.e., SPG or something similar. I have experimented in the past wtih the same bullet & lube and, with the same grime accumulating inside the bore. The properties inside black powder lubes are more conducive to anti-fowling, or at least slowing it down, as compared to smokeless lubes. Throughout the day, it may affect your accuracy but it will not hurt the barrel. Great job as usual.

It would look hilarious shooting one of those black powder loads through a suppressor

I think I know the reasoning behind loading with 3F but I wonder if duplicating the original load with 2F would result in better accuracy. In any case congrats on the new acquisition and I hope it brings you joy and some excellent Jack rabbits.

Great video and awesome thumbnail!👍

I am not sure whether or not I should be ashamed to admit that I grinned ear to ear when I saw the thumbnail for this video. There's definitely something wrong with me. May I never recover. 😆

Very nice rifle and I like the lower velocity loadings Even at low velocities the big soft bullets should still pack a pretty good wallup to whatever it hits. Although I have never heard of Desperado Bullets I have been trying to find some Round nose flat point or semi wadcutter store bought bullets of a brinell hardness of 7-8 , or if anyone makes them the same bullet but with a Hollowpoint. Reason for this is that I want a 44 special Load to use in my Rossi 92 44/Special/44 magnum carbine with 16 inch barrel that will be less than the speed of sound for my ears and shoulder sake and better performance both outside and inside for home defense . I could use Hardcast for just shooting targets but for a bullet to have better Performance on game and for home defense use that a softer bullet and a hollowpoint gives . And decide on a smokeless powder and load that would provide good case fill (preferably without using a filler) and at the same time keep velocities from about 800 fps-1,000 fps from the 16 inch barrel. I am almost 64 and low recoil and blast are getting more and more important to me the older I get ! 🙂 Would this bullet be okay for my wants or do you know of a bullet company that makes a round nose flat point or semi wadcutter that will expand at these low velocities that I am wanting ,maybe with a hollow point ? What do you think about for a powder like I am looking for ? Thank you Much

I use the despardo bullets as well but even though they claim the grease is good for BP and smoke less I always get tumblers after just a few shots. I ended up buying big groove molds with a nice wide and deep grease ring for both 44wcf and 45 Colt rifles. No more tumblers and not bad accuracy. I found I have to use a compression die the Desperado bullets would deform with out compression die use. I use a lee dipper 1.9 cc I think gets me in the 30 grain range. I’m not that fussy with BP loads though I have weighed out in the past for my use the dipper is fine for BP but always weigh more than the lee chart for 2f. Heck I have even used swiss 1.5 and they performed well Good video nice original!

Ahh, terminology and pedants. A never ending cycle, and free entertainment!

If you go supersonic you have to stay there until target impact or you lose zero.... stay subsonic max and arrive on target with ballistic curve exactly with enough mass to accomplish desired goals 😊

Wouldn't miss this for the world man 💣🇺🇸👍💪

Another reason for your inconsistent 40 grain loads is the high rate of compression you had to have in those new 44-40 cases. In the old days most cases were baloon head not solid cases which held approximately 5 grains more with less compression. Also as a side note Swiss powders tend to like no compression or very little to get the best accuracy. I noticed the same issues when loading Swiss vs GOEX powders in my Shatps rifles in 45/70. GOEX likes a fair amount of compression. As far as my black powder 45/70 loads I use a seperate compression die before seating the bullet. All this tends to be mute when you paper patch the bullet and your able to seat the bullet less deep in the case. You have the same discussions with modern 45/70 cases. I forgot to mention that you need to use a black powder lube not modern types. You will get softer fowling and less leading. Try using a 10/1 or 20/1 lead to tin alloy with like an SPG or DLC black powder lube. With softer alloys you can use slightly larger diameter bullets. Soft lead alloys easily slugs up to the bore. Higher velocities do tend to lead the bore more, but the right combination of alloy, black powder lube (soft fowling makes for better accuracy) and powder charges makes for a very consistant muzzle velocity and lower extreme spreads. Good video sir.

I'm not a reloader and fire factory Winchester Smokeless .44-40 (44WCF) though my excellent almost like new condition 1890 vintage Model 73 and can tell you that it is VERY accurate out to 150 yards by personal experience. Can easily hit a woodchuck size target at that range. Also easily hit a gallon milk jug filled with water (my fave target) at 100 yards and a soda can at the same range but I can occasionally miss the soda can due to me rather than the rifle. Any 73 that is not that accurate is likely fairly well worn.

nice video ! yeah some of these bullet guys make really Soft lead. I prefer to make my own, Biglube has a really nice black powder 200gr. bullet mold LOVE IT! "Mav Duchman" I love the 44-40 though! the action stays pretty clean! everything goes out the end! and I think thats apart of the reason the fouling gets so bad.

Round nose flat point is how I know them👍

I've seen bullet moulds listed stating the shape is "Round Nose Flat Point"

I’m going to go out on a limb and say most of the people who say definitively “you can’t load 40 grains of powder in a (45 Colt or 44-40 WCF)” either are just regurgitating something they heard from a fudd or are people who are scared of compressing black powder, or probably a mixture of the two.

I am jealous, that is a beautiful ol rifle.😁

I've only loaded .45 Colt and you CAN fit 40 grains of 3F in a case, you have to meter it out a little at a time and tap the case so the powder settles (or use a drop tube). I did the same thing when I loaded .45 Schofield, I believe it only held 35 grains, but blackpowder is very forgiving and volumetric measures aren't great, letting your skin bulge into the measure, reducing the powder load a few grains. Besides, blackpowder loves compression and an air gap is the Devil. :) One day I'll load some 2f to see how it does. The recoil might be milder, just like when I shoot 2f in my .44 revolvers.

That very much parallels my results with a 45 Colt 1892....Top end BP loads need harder alloys, yes.... A good BP lube helps a lot with leading.

you can shoot all day with plenty of lube. when smith and wesson was developing the .357 magnum in conjunction with elmer keith they had significant leading problems they made the lead harder to combat this , in the end they fixed it by adding an extra lube groove.

Jake when you shoot BP loads you need a boolit with a wide geese groove, and be sure to use a real soft lube. SPG makes a good one but it aint cheap, i make my own out of beeswax and olive oil. the crayon lubes the company's use will do nothing! you can look at a recovered boolit and it will still be in the groove. if it aint spinning off in the bore and the muzzle aint wet and sticky after the shot, your bore will look like yours every time! i shoot soft lead in 38-55 no problem.

Use a drop tube when loading black it will take less room in the case !

The original cases were called balloon head, not safe to use today. This gave more space for a powder charge. When using black powder there should be no air space as this will increase pressure. A 40 grain compressed powder charge is fine for the rifle.

Thank you for the info. I have been eyeing a uberti 1873 in 44-40. The uberti is the deluxe model with a 30 inch barrel. I am thinking i may look for a 45 colt. I like to push the velocity as much as possible with black powder. I was thinking it would be a nice gun to push a bullet out there a little farther. I am set up for 45 colt so if i can only push a 200 grain bullet at 1100 to 1200 feet per second accurately i might as well stick to 45 colt and push a 255 grain to 1200 feet accurately. I believe if i remember right thats what you getting out of a rifle in 45 colt a while back. Maybe i am misunderstanding or remembering wrong i am fairly new to the black powder cartridge stuff.

Nice video.

Impressive! I wonder what kind of lube they use and if that might have contributed to the leading at all.

I use the Desperado bullets . I think it's their lube not the lead . I cast my own pure lead bullets now an use black powder lube ( lamps tallow & bees wax) and the barrel is a lot cleaner John

Dam,right,man

She's a beaut!

I own a 1873 that is a first generation rifle. When I got this rifle I ran into a lot of right and wrong information about cartridges and reloading ammunition. What my research has found is that in the 1800s and before the bullets are made from pure lead. Pure lead has a hardness of 9-14. This is why the bore size is a loose fit for nonfired bullets. What happens with pure lead bullets is when fired they expand from .425-.430. This is what seals the bullet and prevents lead fowling. The rifles that are made with barrels for smokeless powder are designed for harder bullets and higher pressure of smokeless powder. With my research I found that reloading with black powder you must always pack the powder with as much powder up to the max load required. Unlike smokeless that is a loose fill. Black powder must be tight so there are no air gaps. Both loose powder and or hard lead bullets cause inaccuracies, and lead fowling. Be very cautious, and careful with black powder and hard lead bullets in old rifles.

Jake, I have pushed 180gn cast from soft lead in my 03-a3. Full tlt. Difference is I paper patched the bullets. Saves on cleaning, no leading, and polishes the bore. Might try doing that in your lever gun. With black powder. You might be surprised. With a little practice on wrapping, I wrap them wet and let dry, It might work for you also With the 1mk111 you have, they paper patched those in the beginning. Try it, you just might like it.

Wonder how the gauged velocity back in the day and how accurate it really was.

Most prolific Carthage in the old west was actually the 3840 the 4440 was probably second, and about eagle with the 45 Schofield and Colt.

I shoot Desperado .428 in my unberti 1873 with no leading problems. This week with 10 rounds of t7 3 f 25grain (1325fps). Then 10 rounds with 30 grains t7 3 f (1530). The 30 grain load was not accurate and shot high. Too much for my rifle. The rifle cleaned right up with water then oil, no leading. Just my recent experience.

Historically, wadcutters don't necessarily have a flat point. A lot of modern wadcutters have that truncated cone shape, but wadcutter refers to the hole characteristics for target shooting. That's probably where angry commenter is shooting from. Ref: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate Useful reference for all things cast bullets. Whole thing is available online for free as a PDF or web page.

Maybe try a gas checked bullet and 40 grains?

If I am not mistaken, in the early days of cartridges, they were balloon headed cartridges.

To avoid leading, I would use dedicated BP lube, like SPG. Plus a bullet with a lot of lube groove volume, like Dick Dastardly's Big Lube bullet molds. And a good alloy like 20-1 (Pb-Sn) or maybe a dilluted Lyman #2 - 90-5-5 (Pb-Sb-Sn) may be too much, my best guess for 1400fps velocity would be 92-4-4.

Where you measuring the bore from? The end of the bore is smaller than the bullet size by a bit. The chamber should be spot on though

So to be historically accurate John Wayne would've carried a 73 or 76 winchester and a 73 colt chambered in 44-40, the 73 winchester could then also be chambered in 44-40 so that both firearms could use the same ammo ,76 winchester uses a heavier cartridge

balloon head held 40 gr , modern shell is more like 35 gr , as you know you can fit 40gr in modern brass but i think its too compressed myself, your point on 2 f is valid and i believe the early loads were 2 f with a 215 gr projectile at a touch over 1300 fps ,i think you will enjoy this rifle more than you realise ,i wanted to ask if your kibler southern mountain and colonial were rifled or smooth bore , cheers big ears from down under

I have been shooting guns since I was 16, and been shooting black powder since 1988 as well as have worked for CCP/Pinkerton security agency back in the early 1990’s. And as I recall a Wadcutter is a flat faced bullet, that has the profile of a steel pin or a bolt. And a semi-wadcutter is not nor has it ever been a round nosed flat bullet, as the profile of a semi-wadcutter similar to that of the end of a funnel on its nose. The only thing that looks anywhere close to that bullet you showed, which I had to take a second look at is that of a Keith style semi-wadcutter and it still does not look identical. And you typically wouldn’t shoot any kind of wadcutter in a magazine fed gun, unless it’s designed to use wadcutters. Which is why wadcutters are primarily used only in revolvers, but there are some semi-automatic pistols that can shoot some versions of wadcutters. To my knowledge there are not any magazine fed rifles, that are designed to use wadcutters. But you could shoot them out of single shot breach load rifles just fine.

I have had 2 1873s in 44-40 one was 0.431" the other 0.432", a 1892 that was 0.426" and now a Mireku - Winchester that's 0.429"

Thank you for the fine content. Quick question: I have access to both Swiss and Schuetzen black powder; the latter is nearly $10 cheaper for a pound - which should I purchase and why? Thank you again for your effort putting out these videos.

When it comes to Store bought bullets and that pretty little blue ring of lube the, term ship it must work it may, comes to mind. Do you resize your Black powder cartridges? I'm not sure if there's a need to as long as they chamber and are firmly crimped in compression against the powder charge. BTW NOE bullet mold 432-216-RF-Z1 looks interesting with the wider lubrication groove.

Well you just blew away the myth about the powder case limitation I've always read about. Then you get crazy ballistics with black powder that they probably did not get back in the old days breaking 1400fps(but you are using pretty much top shelf black powder). Seems like we may be better off with black with the old guns after all!

Will you try flash powder and blank powder in modern firearms?

Interesting video. Thanks. Did you compress the powder before seating the projectile? Do you think a grease cookie would help the leading when using soft lead?

I used the same bullets and got leading in the barrel with loads under 1000fps

Dam,good,job,1

The 44WCF is the holy grail calibre…. I’ve shot lots of deer, lots of wild hogs and a black bear..it drives tacks… hits hard… it’s a killer. I use to claim the 45 colt as cool…. I’ve switched all pistols n lever guns to 44-40 and never ever looked back never will.

yeah Jake i've always heard those called flat points too! are you using drop tube? at least with rifle rounds it does get more powder in the case i haven't tried it with pistol rounds though!