Oh woops base regression is 0.25charges per second not 1. Billy would be more like 0.15 not 0.75

I can confirm that this is not in fact “fool proof” because I am stupid and I don’t get it.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

Foolproof is not going to be enough, we need behaviorproof.

When a skull merchant kicks a gen the gen is completed and the skull merchant explodes and is killswitched for three months

I suggested something like this a few years back and got an onslaught "BHVR will never know how to tierlist the killers" comments. I still think it's the right direction to go in but I've expanded into believing that build allowances might actually be the best move for balancing all aspects of the game. Like a DBD version of pick 10 just less open so the devs don't lose their minds.

As a Billy main of several years, i still get a rush of endorphins every time someone says "A strong killer, like *The Hillbilly* for example"

Scott "engineer" Jund, fixing generator problems

Now imagine if they answer that they can't make a base regression value per killer for some reason. Or that it would take for about 5 years to implement such a thing into the game.

I thank the gods you play both sides Scott. Sometimes I’m on Reddit too long I read to most smooth brain takes from people who play specifically one side. I stg people who hardcore main one side ruin this game for everyone else

BHVR: "We can't just give killers individual regression values because if we stun nurse out of her power how do we disable Trapper traps"

i think if we are allowed to ask the universe for accurate adjustments to their kick strength, i would rather just see them buff/nerf killers to where they are all relatively close and just do basekit gen regression plans instead

The issue with Scott's suggested change is that it will make low-tier, noob-stomper killers even more noob-stomper-y and it will make high-tier, high-skill-floor killers even less accessible.

yeah i've always thought that killers should have specific "classes" for gen kicking stuff. it would also probably help BHVR in the future when designing new killers because they have a general idea of what kinda kit to encourage. like is this killer a pursuit killer, a ruination killer, or whatever

Pairing killer specific gen regression with a hard limit to how many gen slowdown perks a killer can run at once would make it much easier for them to balance slowdown and individual killers I think

This is a great idea Scott. Nice visual as well. I’m glad someone finally addressed that we need base slowdown BUT it can’t be the same for every killer due to the balance issues between killers

Legitimately great take. Would love this. This for killer and that Push Limits thing you recommended for Survivor are the two basekit changes I've heard recommended that this game could use most imo

its cool because I have seen people discuss this! in that reddit thread the top comment thread is also about these ideas, which is great because the more people that're talking about this the more the devs may consiter it in the future!

I like this idea, it's like the threat of the killer heightens the stress/fear thus the survivors gen speed is adjusted depending on the tier of map control and how powerful the killer is. I think this would be easier to adjust for bhvr since they like data so much for changes, that maybe they can gauge from average kill rate, ect.

I had an exact idea like this a long time ago. it could also help with balance of perks a lot and give killer groups a more distinguished identity of what they want to do or can do, it also has the added benefit of being able to more directly target some killers strength and weaknesses outside of touching their powers

thing is, balancing this is INCREDIBLY complicated. Killers all around feel like base gen kicks NEED a buff, but at the same time survivors do not want the gen kick to do TOO much damage. A solution would be to incorporate PERSONAL kick regression to EACH killer like Scott said. HOWEVER, BHVR's history make it seem like they would never do this. When things get too complicated regarding mechanics or coding, they usually choose to ignore it. This would require nerfs/buffs to every killer regularly from then on and require X amount of more work than they are already doing. Not calling them lazy, but I doubt they will pursue something that requires more work for no extra money.

I don’t know if I want less slowdown perks😅. All slowdown perks do is perks that aren’t dedicated to anti-chase. Imagine a killer having modern slowdown with bamboozle, spirit fury, friends til the end, and starstruck. The current punishment for killers not doing that is reduction in gen slow down.

MOBAs have solved this issue already. Add unique keywords to regression perks to make them not stack then re-evaluate their balance once players are limited. It doesn't need to be as broad as all regression, maybe just something for enhanced regression (overcharge, call of brine), active regression (pop, pain res), and passive regression (ruin, surge, eruption). Sure it limits build variety, but the build variety is the problem here. The game will be much easier to balance if these strong options are limited

The major problem with this that I see is that the 'strength' of a killer is situational, especially when it comes to gen defense or being territorial in general. Trapper, for example, can completely lock down areas, especially on maps like RPD where there are limited ways in/out of areas/gens, but Haddonfield and Gideon can also have 3-gens where one of them is literally inaccessible without going through a one-way area past another gen. If he has a particularly good 3 gen, then the lack of mobility doesn't matter. Even the regression limit might not matter if survivors literally physically cannot reach 1-2 gens without passing through multiple traps. So in those situations, buffing their base regression will make them even more horrendous to deal with. Obviously, fixing map generation would be the core solution, but LOL BHVR. I personally think it'd be healthier for the game to scrap regression as a mechanic entirely and just have a hard set time limit. Say, 10 minutes, and then a 5 minute Endgame begins. Survivors get bonuses in EG depending on gens done, or perhaps add other mechanics (totems, close glyphs, etc). Killer gets bonuses depending on hooks/hook spread, or other 'appease the entity' stuff. Plenty of time for both sides to play the game and engage in the mechanics, and nip being able to hold things hostage in the bud. Could even more aggressively go after camping/tunneling in that kind of framework as well.

Actually, this seems pretty similar to mine idea of perfect balancing: 1. Bhvr makes official tier lists of killers (not by killrate stats obviously), killer addons, survivor items and addons, maps. 2. Before the match starts all this tiers are taking into a formula, which defines base time to repair one gen. So, for example, if it is survivor-sided map then +5 sec to repair a gen, but the killer brought strong addons so it is -5, if it is nurse its like -10 to repair, if strong items then +10 etc. I don’t know if perks should be considered, bc on every killer each perks is different, or make tier list of perks on every killer individually and with every addon combination(which is a lot of work, so it is easier to not consider perks)

the real true horror of dbd is the devs not understanding their own game and just balancing based off numbers and stats and kill rates

That's actually not bad at all, it wouldn't make a gigantic impact on the game, but it would even the playing field a bit more for the low tier vs high tier killers

How about making the slowdown perks have a passive reduction to regression speed? Just so there isn't 4 risk-free slowdowns being run as the meta. I also like your killer-based regression speed idea too. There's definitely things to work with.

In addition to this almost every killer needs some small variable to their kit that affects map generation like Trapper increases the size and thickness of grass patches. Huntress gets fewer tree/large object clutter. Dredge spawns more lockers etc.

Scott I had the same idea but for pallet stuns. I thought that there could be an extra stat for how “fragile” a killer is. Figured we could have killers like Blight or Nurse get stunned slightly longer while weaker killers stay the same

I remember suggesting this for stun length as well, where DS would hit longer for blight and nurse, less for weaker killers.

I was thinking the same thing when you were explaining that how regression perks can't be buffed or nerfed cuz of the power differences between the killers. Why not kick dmg and regression speed be different for each killer. This is a great idea, and hope can be implemented. I was also thinking for tunneling and camping problem, instead of having 3 hook stages, maybe each player could bring 3 survivors to the trial. Whenever you hook, you die, no struggle or anything. Then your 2nd survivor enters the game. Maybe a little cinematic kind of way, you see your survivor gets hooked, and camera moves to a far away location, and stops in front of a locker, where your 2nd survivor emerges. Even tho, killers can still tunnel you out if you only have 3 survivors to use, so maybe you could use one of the existing players survivor after you use all of yours. This also effects the endgame screen. As a killer, you don't have to kill every survivor in the trial to win. Let's say you killed 8 survivors out of 12, you've won the game. And for the survivor, it counts individual. If you've used 1-2 survivors and escape, you did a good job. But if you've used 3-4 and more, you've done a bad job at surviving. This might also increase the skin sales, which benefits the game. You don't have to bring 3 different survivors to the match, but let's say other players did, you might like the skins when you're playing as their survivor and decide to buy it for yourself. For unhooking skills such as "we'll make it" or "deliverance" they might have a different condition to activate. Let's say for deliverance, if you've been in the chase for certain amount of time, you can unhook yourself from the first hook, but that survivor stays broken trough the trial. (Not the new ones you bring) We'll make it could be used by the player who just lost one of his survivors, maybe after you get out of the locker, you go to your teammates, and heal them fast for a certain amount of time. This is kind of a big difference so I don't know if they'd code would allow such a thing, but if I was making an an asymmetric game that is similar to DBD, after seeing games current state, I'd definetly make it that way.

The way you were explaining the problem I actually came to the same solution before you said it. But I also thought of why not make generators more or less unique per each killer, just like the skillchecks on The Doctor. Since most low-tiers are usually gimmicky type of killers you can make gens apply or have gimmicky effects on them.

Honestly this game could *really* use more adjustable values for the individual killers in general, even stuff like breaking/vaulting/recovery speeds, could help balance things more easily - of course, with the pretense that Behavior actually would do that, but in a perfect world it should help accomplish that.

Honestly the stat for the killer could literally be called "Map Control" and range from low to medium to high and the bonus regression being given based on that. I love your idea Scott, this would really give the low tier killers more range and wouldn't affect the higher ones as much.

Excellent idea and surprised I haven't seen this earlier. Would give devs another knob to use when balancing killers.

They're going to have to do something about this gen regression soon, I've already seen a lot of forum posts and Twitter posts complaining about killers slugging more. Like sure, slugging at five-gens is cringe. But when lower-teir killers or even killers who don't have good gen pressure but good chase power (like you said) loose two-three gens before they can get their first hook, it is incredibly worrisome. Like what else is the killer supposed to do? Even with a good chase power like Legion, Wraith, Clown they can't be in four places at once. It's even more worrisome when survivors equip themselves with saboteur, hyperfocus, WoO, Lythe, DS, Unbreakable, OTR, Weaving Spiders, Boon:Exponetial, Boon:Discord etc paired with Comodius+brand new part+hacksaw. Like sure, SoloQ will be slightly more disorganised, but if they play smart and have the right builds, they can cause a problem for a lower-teir killer or slower skilled killer players. We seem to be heading towards a Meta where it'll be easy to bully the killer, which will lead to killers slugging and bleeding out more because of their frustrations with the game, which in turn will make survivor games miserable and then BHVR will step in and make basekit unbreakable, wich will make strategic slugging useless. Thus the cycle continues.

I had an idea on how to balance the perk usage, which will never gonna happen, but I'll give it anyway. I was thinking about adding something like rune, or glyph system to the perks. Each perk would have one or a few runes attached to them, and you couldn't use perks with these runes outside of a perk slot that would have a same symbol. With that all slowdown perks would have one type of runes, chase perks another, information another etc. Thing is that not every killer would have rune slots. That would mean that stronger killers like Blight would be very restricted to having only one slowdown, maybe one information or something that would limit his options while killers like Trapper wouldn't had any, so no perk restrictions for him. That would need A LOT of work, and could be very unfun for the stronger killers to have limited options in using perks that they unlocked, but I think that after a bit of balance changes this could work well. (maybe even due to these restrictions a lot of perks could be buffed since strong perk combos could be present only on week killers anyway and with that we could see Pig near top of the tier lists)

This was my post! Thank you for discussing this.

My biggest concern is the fact there are killers that aren't even balanced within their own addons. Somehow Myers is both top tier and D- thanks to tombstone piece. They'll have to install suicide nets for the balancing team

Would the required charges to stop it regressing always be 5? or would it be attached to the kick percent

I think while not a bad idea it’s not full proof as the devs could use this as a bandaid fix to not actually adress balance issues among the killers. For example they might leave dredge in a weird awkward place with locker spawns locked lockers etc because they gave him higher viscuousness and they can point to that as a “fixing” him. Same can be applied to many other killers in the game.

This is a cool concept and definitely could help bridge the gap towards making regression feel more "fair" amongst the stronger and weaker killers. My primary concern with this idea though isn't even that it would require the devs to know which killers need stronger vs. weaker regression, but that it would take a game that is already difficult to learn from a numbers perspective for newer players and add yet another stat to consider on a killer to killer basis. Unless the generator regression stats were mostly consistent with only the killers on the higher and lower levels seeing some small percentage tweaks, I'd be worried the stats would vary too much and potentially confuse some players on both sides of the game. I don't think this is the worst trade-off necessarily, but I think making DBD as simple as possible for onboarding new players is still important and worth considering. If I have any follow up thoughts about this I'll post them, but thank you for sharing your ideas!

No solution is fool proof, but in your example even with the different slow downs based on the individual killer, nothing stops those same killers from still bringing 4 slowdowns. Here's my idea, make base kit gen regression be tied to the perks you bring. Allow me to explain, for each perk slot that does not include a gen regression/slowdown perk (this includes perks like deadlock, corrupt, tremors, etc.) you gain a 5% buff to gen kick damage and 1% of base regression. This by the way includes a change where the current base kick regression is removed meaning if you run 4 slowdowns, kicking a generator will literally do nothing unless you have pop or something. Having all 4 perk slots not include a gen regression or slowdown perk activates a feature where kicking a generator now does 30% damage to gens, base regression is now 5% per second, and by default all generators now take an additional 10 seconds to complete. These numbers are subject to change, but this is a much better change imo because it will literally punish you for bringing 4 slowdowns, and massively buff killers for bringing none, and allow you to feel more freedom in your perk selection without feeling like those perks are mandatory. One last thing I've always suggested is adding a base kit thana to the game. It's much easier to implement, although it doesn't really solve the major issues with much larger changes.

Definitely! Like how killers have a speed based on their powers, their "kick power" should change how fast and strong they can break gens pallets and walls. They could also have bloodlust levels be different based on killers as well. Would definitely help balance killers easier

I had debated posting this but I actually think it would be smart to dramatically buff regression perks but attach those perks to something like an exhaustion mechanic where you can only have one regression perk proc every x seconds

The issue overall is that generators don't take long enough to complete by base. It's 90 seconds, not including skillcheck bonuses, toolbox and perk bonuses, and also not including multiple survivor bonuses. In a game that can, at the very most, last 60 minutes before the match is forcibly ended by the server. To fix it, I would do three things. 1. First, raise the base amount of charges of all generators. 2. Second, all % based regressions except the base amount lost from failed skillchecks and the amount naturally removed from damaging a generator manually are instead changed to a flat amount of charges being removed. This heavily limits the amount of regression power the killer directly has. In conjunction with generators naturally taking longer, the _need_ for regression is removed and it is now as optional as taking a Toolbox for a Survivor. Additionally, the amount of regressions a killer can do to a generator is reduced to 5 from 8 over the course of a match forcing them to use it more sparingly, rather than whenever possible. This regression limit would be more clear to the killer than it currently is. 3. Finally, Toolboxes would also get reworked to instead forcibly pass skillchecks rather than direct generator speed bonuses. In detail, here are the changes I would make. 1. All generator's maximum charges would go up by an additional 30, raising the time to complete a generator to be 2 minutes, not including any outside factors. A fail from missing a skillcheck would be unchanged from 10% of the current progress, and a manual damaging of a generator would also be unaffected, still removing 5% and costing the killer one "regression" on that generator up to their maximum. The closer a generator is to completion, the more imperative it is that Survivors lock-in on the task at hand and do not fail skillchecks, as it could harm them more than ever before. 2. Perks and addons that previously removed charges of progress on a generator by percentage are *all* changed to different flat values. Regardless of how much a generator has been fixed, these values will never vary and always be static. This further limits the direct oppression that regression effects have on generators, however because it is static, it will prove for a larger hit on low progress generators than previously. Because the maximum amount of regressions is reduced to 5 from 8, the killer would have to pick and choose when they want to regress more carefully, or deal with the inevitability of Survivors completing the generators without further resistance. 3. Toolboxes would no longer provide direct progress speed bonuses, and instead be used to forcibly complete skillchecks. Skillchecks skipped this way would always be "Great". Whenever a skillcheck is skipped this way, the toolbox loses a charge. The amount of charges is based on the rarity of the toolbox, and each toolbox would grant a flat bonus to the amount of charges gained for skillcheck skips, also affected by some add-ons. Due to this drastic change, sabotaging with a toolbox will also use up charges like skipping skillchecks. The amount of charges would be a flat amount of uses, rather than a percentile value. All "Repair speed" effects are changed. Gaining an increase to speed on a generator directly is now *only* increased by survivors working together on a generator. When I mean a generator should take 2 minutes not including bonuses, I *mean it.* Some perks would obviously have to change to implement all of this, so here's my ideas for the ones that affect toolboxes and repair speed. Overwhelming Presence: Doubles the amount of charges used per skip/sabotage, but even if the item only has one charge left, the action can still be done unimpeded. Non-toolbox item charge values are unchanged from the previous version. Franklin's Demise: Removes 25% of the item's maximum charges, and permanently prevents those charges from being regenerated for the rest of the match. An item reduced to 0 maximum charges by this effect is destroyed. The item aura reading effect is removed, and the item is no longer removed from the Survivor's hand unless it is destroyed. Built to Last: Items with reduced maximums from Franklin's Demise can only ever be recharged to that maximum. Corrective Action: Does not affect Skillcheck skips granted by Toolboxes. Fast Track: Is unaffected by Skillcheck skips granted by Toolboxes. Fogwise: Does not trigger with Skillcheck skips granted by Toolboxes. Hyperfocus: Does not affect Skillcheck skips granted by Toolboxes. Friendly Competition: When you complete a generator with the help of at least one other survivor, Friendly Competition activates; For the next 75 seconds, you and those survivors can freely choose to skip skillchecks on generators as if you had a toolbox, however no bonus to progress is granted. If any survivors affected _manually_ get Great skillchecks, they are given an additional 3% bonus to progress. If any of the affected survivors fail a skillcheck on a generator, this effect ends for all survivors affected. Invocation Weaving Spiders: Maximum charges on generators reduced by 20 from 10. Overzealous: After Cleansing or Blessing a totem, gain charges up to a maximum of 8 at any given time. If it was a Dull totem: The next 2 failed skillchecks when repairing a generator or healing another Survivor are instead considered Great skillchecks. If it was a Hex totem: The next 4 failed skillchecks when repairing a generator or healing another Survivior are instead considered Great skillchecks. Potential Energy: While the effect is active, Skillchecks cannot be skipped with the use of a Toolbox. Prove Thyself: For every other Survivor repairing a generator within 4 meters, Prove Thyself increases the chance for you to see additional Skillchecks by 20%, up to a total of 60%. During this time, the skillcheck zone is increased by 10% per additional survivor, up to 30%, and reduced by 5% per successful skillcheck hit in a row, down to -30%. If you fail a skillcheck while this effect is active, Prove Thyself will disable for 45 seconds. No longer affects other survivors around you. Tooboxes can be used to skip these skillchecks as per normal and will not trigger the 5% loss in skillcheck zone size. Quick Gambit: Survivors repairing generators within range of this effect will have Skillcheck failures automatically be considered Good skillchecks so long as the Survivor with Quick Gambit continues to be in range and in Chase with the Killer. Additionally reveals the aura of Survivors affected by Quick Gambit to the Survivor being chased. Rookie Spirit: This effect cannot be triggered by Skillcheck skips granted by Toolboxes. Scavenger: The repair speed reduction is replaced with the following effect: Recharging a Toolbox will permanently reduce it's maximum charges by 25%. Scavenger cannot be reactivated for 30 seconds and is disabled for the rest of the trial after activating four times. Sole Survivor: The repair speed effect is removed, however the Gate and Hatch opening speeds are still increased. When you are the Last Survivor Standing, your failed skillchecks do not trigger a Loud Sound warning to the Killer, and do not remove any progress. Streetwise: Your items are granted an additional 25% maximum charges, this effect extends to all other Survivors in the trial. If two Survivors have Streetwise, the effect is increased to 35%. If three Survivors have Streetwise, the effect is increased to 45%. If all Survivors have Streetwise, the effect is doubled to 50%. It would be a MAJOR update to the game, and definitely would shake the game up by its core, but honestly I think the game needs it.

I have always thought a class based system would be a good way to fix this, taking this a step further and putting killers into different classes that allow them a different amount of certain types of perks. Like for example a blight could fall into a “chaser” class and have access to a max of 2 regression perks, whereas freddy could be a “planner” type class and allow more. This idea requires a lot more change and a lot more awareness from the devs so it would never happen, but i think it could be a fun and fresh change.

Flipside to this would be a modifier to charges per generator for each killer. Would artificially increase the amount of gens need to be done for the weaker killers but also could decrease the ones needed for stronger killers. Also, it would not require killers to need to kick gens

An idea that seemed cool would be if the skill challenges were more minigames like skull merchants drones, thus making survivors have to pay more attention to their task rather than autopilot mode. If you can find a way to get survivors to miss their skill checks, you solve part of the regression issue while also letting killers naturally apply more pressure without purely having to rely on kick builds. This also allows skill check builds (with some changes obviously) on both sides more appealing as well

This... Is actually a really good idea though. That would also make sense thematically, like how Trapper has the perk to break things easier he could have insane regression by default.

I thought pretty much an identical idea a while ago but with other stats like kick speed and stun time. The problem with this, however is as you say with trusting developers with sort of tierlisting strength of the killers. To be honest I wouldn't think the developers would even want this either though, as they would have to be very transparent with how they think each and every killer strength wise is, especially considering they usually try to balance the game overall rather than balancing around higher level play.

I remember I think in a otz video where he had an idea to rework toolboxes (back when they were overpowered) to have them produce a sort of shield overlay so that instead of increasing repair speed they would add a delay before generators started losing charges from regression. I think it would be interesting if both survivor and killer perks revolved around the idea of building and damaging generator shields instead of direct regression, a perk like pop would only be super effective against a team that's bringing toolboxes but would be able to strip the shield completely of a gen. Perhaps then killers can have buffed base regression and in turn survivors get some sort of base generator shield building. The idea is that survivors items/perks are less about speeding up repairs and more about creating a defence against gen regression and killer perks become focused on tearing down this defence and allowing generators to regress at a normal pace, you would only need one anti-gen perk to help with destroying shields, taking 4 anti-gen perks would essentially be like taking 4 anti-heal perks, sure they would stack but it wouldn't be a versatile build. Most perks would have their function remain almost the exact same just targeting generator shields as opposed to gens themselves.

One thing that I was thinking would be weight classes, which still is kinda a blanket change but hear me out. Nurse would be the lightest class and have the current base gen kick regression and Clown for example would be apart of the heaviest weight class and have a slightly higher modifier to the kick damage (technically this should apply to pallets but I don’t wanna deal with that). IMO it wouldn’t fix everything because of some obvious outliers (Freddy being small and Oni being fat as fuck) but it could work. Very similar to Scott’s idea but could be fine like that

I literally been talking about this for a few years that based on the killer you use you can adjust how strong perks or regression is for them. Obviously M1 killers need more than killers who can zoom around the maps very quickly.

Yeah I kinda like this. I think there even might be other factors where a better balance in DBD would be taking some general actions and tweak them in a case by case (killer by killer or survivor by survivor) manner.

How would it be if killer perks started getting sorted into categories such as chase, gen regression, slowdown, aura reading e.t.c, and after that you're only allowed max 2 perks per category or maybe just the gen/slowdown ones. Then you could maybe look into starting to buff base regression

I think you could even go further and tie gen regression perks to each killers kick regression such as Pain resonance could regress 4 kicks worth or gen blocks being based on regression speed like deadlock blocking the gen for 100 x your killers regression charges per second (assuming 0.25 charges base regression that'd be on average 25 seconds like it is now) I rather like the idea as it gives devs more stats to balance killers with and if perks would be based on your killers own regression stats, perks would excel with different killers.

I have a fool proof idea, nerf gen rushing. Nerf Brand New Part, Invocation was overbuffed imo, Toolboxes in general, Hyperfocus, Stake Out maxing at 3 stacks instead of 4 or take 25% longer, Streetwise + Built to Last. These would be a great way to make gen defense less necessary.

Here's what I think a good idea would be: All killers are placed in 3 different teirs, could be something like Strong, Good, and Average. And said killers would have pre-set generators that have visually different models. The models on the strong killers could actually get finished say 10% quicker than normal generators, the good killers could remain unchanged or even take just 5% longer and the average killers would have gens take 10-15% longer to complete.

Honestly, I think this should be expanded beyond gen regression. We can have killers having slightly weaker powers if we buff them in other places. Give all killers 3 more stats: Bloodlust, Wrath, and Bulk. Bloodlust would be a modifier for how quickly they wipe their weapons after a successful hit. Wrath would be how much base regression they do to gens. Bulk would be how long they get stunned for. If you give all killers these 3 stats that modify the base times across the board, you can make Killers like Trapper stronger without buffing Nurse. OR you can nerf Nurse or Blight or Spirit without necessarily changing their powers or add-ons and giving them penalties. Imagine Nurse takes an extra .1 seconds to wipe off her blade and gets stunned at pallets for an extra .15 seconds. That wouldn't be detrimental to Nurse but would be to Trapper.

Yeah I don't know why people think that players would magically start going easier if they had the upper hand. The most I've ever been tunneled and BMed as survivor was during the pre nerf ruin undying meta. The moment you make one side stronger assholes will flock to the role to give themselves the easiest game possible.

Honestly at the very least the new regression stat would at the very least be a temporarily solution for killers that are in a weaker state like trapper until they got around to fixing them. To make a comparison, this is like the HUD update that gave solo queue more info but nothing really for SWF so it effectively bridged the gap between the two. This is basically the same thing for killer...it somewhat bridges the gap. Will it bridge the gap completely? No not even close, but it will help a lot if done right.

I had an idea a while ago that I'm not sure would work or able to be balanced (also behavior would never actually implement it cause it would be a ton of work) but it was basically a rework to the perk system where rather than having 4 perk slots, you would have a number of "perk points" to spend and each perk would be assigned a point value. you could then make it so the stronger killers have less points than the weaker ones, meaning they wouldn't be able to run as many perks, and the stronger perks would obviously cost more, adding to that (all survivors would have the same number of points). again I have no clue how balanced this would actually be but I thought it would at least be interesting

You could make it so that for each gen regression perk you lose a percent of the whole group. This would make it so the more slow down perks doesn't equal more actual slow down depending on the killer. Along with your idea of course

Could also maybe make a perk for that regression system. Something along the lines of forfeiting gen regression for movement speed or something idk. The higher your x%/x% is then the higher speed you get or something. That way nurse can't use this very well.

Yeah people seem to forget they did this when they did base kit killer buffs and people still felt the need to tunnel out survivors and use all the slowdowns they can' I don't understand why people make these arguments when it has been proven over and over to be the contrary. The only thing that was brought up to me which I definitely agree with is that I can be a good Blight and someone else can be a bad Blight. Its really hard to balance around how good I am at playing blight and someone that had 0 experience. So it makes balance really hard too. (I'm not a great blight btw) :)

I get the impression the whole point of the regression nerfs was to take focus off of regression. The more survivors have to re-repair lost regression, the more boring the game is for them - even setting aside whether the game is a win or a loss. They may have an ideal for how long chases should take, and if a killer can achieve that, theoretically they should win. It's maybe also a guideline for how killers should set up side objectives to keep the game at least mildly interesting for survivors, rather than require them to hold M1 for longer. (I'll maintain, I think Xeno's fire turrets are an excellent example of this design, and many people don't appreciate it)

This really begs a brand new and more important question: should dead by daylight drop broad balance changes that streamline all mechanics and embrace character oriented balance? I imagine this would make a great topic for a video @Scott Jund. You could add FAR more “Killer stats” and totally rebalance killers in far more specific ways than we are able to currently. Create a stat for gen regression? Hell, create stats for destruction speeds, lunge ranges, you could organize perks in a brand new structure where some are available for certain characters and others are completely unavailable. Imagine if Nowhere to Hide couldn’t be run on killers like Nurse, Blight, or Hillbilly. In addition, this would help combat a creative “writers block” where we’re slowly inching further and further into a period of DBDs history where the powers must be increasingly complex in order to not just be a remixed mechanic that already exists. Like I really think this is an idea worth mining for further discussion here.

Yeah everything I come up with on paper I think is really good, up until I remember that the higher tier killers exist. Here is where I landed: I think the first step is to make perks and effects have diminishing returns so stacking them isn't as good. This would've solved a lot of the stupidest mft+hope stuff, and would hopefully help standardize the 60 second swing in gen completion time you can currently have. Once gen completion rate changes are more normalized without the most insane ranges, then regression perks can have diminishing returns so that if you've stacked 4 it isn't much better than just running 2. And once you add DR to regression perks you can add in a per killer rating so perks can be adjusted on a killer by killer basis, and once you have that you can add in base kit slowdown. My idea was that gen repairs would slow down while the killer was in chase with someone that hasn't been hooked, and people that haven't been hooked repair faster based on the highest hook count survivor to discourage immediately tunneling one person out.

While this is very much true, I’m still not entirely certain it’d fix the over reliance on regression perks. I still think some sort of additional base kit regression for all killers would be useful, potentially something which rewards not tunneling (for instance, dealing minor damage to all generators each time you hook a unique survivor before any survivor has died) would go a long way to rebalance regression and make perkless killer less miserable. The amount could even be determined by the stat just like the base regression. Just a thought overall.

i dont think addressing regression, at all, will ever alleviate the killer tier gaps, which is what the problem actually is. some killers average seconds to complete a chase vs a good survivor while others will average about a minute. this is and will always be dbd's core problem, and even if the gens take another minute or two that won't fix the issue of killers who don't accel in chase. this would just be yet another frustrating change for the average survivor, unnoticeable for weak killers who will suffer to complete chase, and strong killers won't really notice a change, because they never really needed regression in the first place. imho the average killer doesn't want to accept that their character is weak and in reality should lose the game when survivors are playing correctly. imo the game is already in a bad bandaid state where 4x regression perks are supplanting balance changes and killers have already had m1 hits buffed + gen speeds nerfed. it really doesn't matter, at best, if you change any regression mechanic, because it's not fixing the issue. people are still going to complain about gen speeds because their killer can't complete chase, and survivors are still going to be miserable going vs multi slowdown killers with minimal counterplay kits

I love this idea. Would be awesome to see this in game.

I'm curious if we had a system like this how it would interact with perks that work off passive regression (ruin, overcharge, call of brine and such)

I wonder if applying a base regression on a killer by killer basis is an approach? so things like nurses don't get too buffed but trappers and freddys can appreciate the ability to control the map more with tailor made base regression buffs for them. edit: (literally stopped at 4:49 to give my two cents just for him to say it at 4:52 lmao! well at least we came up to the same solution lol)

THANK YOU I WAS THINKING OF THE SAME IDEA FOR A WHILE NOW!!!!

You can absolutely ensure that people shift away from slowdown perks - you can remove those perks. Instead of making players balance gen regression with their loadout, just balance the mechanic and replace those now-unnecessary perks with actual perks instead of required dead slots in a killer's build.

I think this makes perfect sense but I see a flaw as well. The way gen regression recovery and the limits to the events of regression would need to change according to how each killer will regress a gen. Besides that, this is how I would see the regression percentages for all killers (im also a killer main who can play every killer efficiently enough) Trapper: 8%/0.60 Wraith: 5%/0.25 Billy: I like scotts so yeah Nurse: 2.5%/0.15 Myers: 8%/0.60 Hag: 5%/0.25 Bubba: 6%/0.25 Doctor: 5%/0.40 Huntress: 6%/0.35 Freddy: 7%/0.50 Pig: 7%/0.50 Clown: 5%/0.25 Spirit (main btw): 4.5%/0.20 Legion: 6.5%/0.40 Plague: 5.5%/0.30 Ghostface: 5%/0.25 Demo: 5%/0.25 Oni: 4.5%/0.20 Deathslinger: 6%/0.35 Pyramid Head: 5%/0.25 Blight: 3%/0.15 Twins: 5%/0.25 Trickster: 5%/0.40 Nemesis: 5%/0.25 Pinhead: 5.5%/0.25 Artist: 5%/0.25 Onryō: 4.5%/0.25 Dredge: 5.5%/0.30 Wesker: 5%/0.25 Knight: unsure because of his guards Skull Merchant: 4.5%/0.25 (idk) Singularity(Larry): 6%/0.35 Zeno: 6%/0.40 Chucky: 6%/0.35 Unknown: 5%/0.25 Vecna: 5%/0.25 Comment as you please just don’t scold me :) Its just something to go along with Scott’s idea

What I think the game really needs is dynamic gen speeds. This means that if a killer has one person on death hook, and 3 other people with 0 hook states, the gens would be faster than if the killer has 2 people hooked, despite having the same number of hooks. And gens would be slower at the start of the match, but as the killer starts to snowball or gain the gens would go faster. It would also, partly, be based on how many generators are completed. So if the survivors have 3 gens done and 2 hook states, the gens would be slower than if the killer had 2 hook states, and the survivors only had 2 gens done, or 1 gen done. The idea behind this would not be to make it 2 kills, 2 escapes. But rather to give both sides a sort of 'catch up' mechanic. Sort of like Bloodlust, but for generators. So a trapper who is setting up, not getting any hooks has more time, while a nurse who is downing people quickly have very different gen times. This would also make it so that it's less about managing gen kicking, and more about the killer having time. And that way, gen regression perks are less important.

Hmmm, that's pretty wild. I would like this just to see who would get what values.

The only issue that I see with this is that it would kinda just encourage those weaker killers with greater regression to camp 3-gens. Yes, there's the anti-three-gen mechanic, but that doesn't prevent it entirely and can still allow for a match to be unnecessarily drawn out. Couple that with certain perks like Overcharge, Call of Brine, and Pop Goes the Weasel stacking with these regression effects, I feel like it would have the opposite effect on trying to balance out the disparity in chase times. Like you said (2:38), you can't rely on the sportsmanship of the community to not use the most effective tactics to win.

Not that theyll ever add this but I think your trial warmup idea from years ago is a more elegant solution to the same problem.

Since consultants announced everyone has an idea. With that said I think Scott is a consultant. Idgaf if he is because low-key he's been one for years without the title and I think he's good at it. And if he's not one he should be because I know some killer mains that would love an open field with not pallets, windows or nothing but 360's and gens would require a jump start from all 4 including the killer to even get them started (that's the tru3th about some killer mains) and then surv mains wanting 4 exhaustion perks with base kit second chance perks. Scott has a good middle ground.

I don't think this'd work. To start, it wouldn't actually solve the problem of some killers being trash and others being way too strong, even if you removed Nurse's ability to kick gens entirely, a good Nurse will still never lose a game. Even if Trapper regressed gens by 15% every kick, he's always losing to a competent 4 man on Eyrie of Crows. The only actual way to balance gen regression is to 1. Make all Killers balanced and relevant 2. Nerf every gen slowdown perk into the ground, make them borderline usless 3. Buff basekit gen regression significantly 4. Buff chase/info/misc perks 5. Balance maps so killers without map pressure/mobility can still compete These changes would fix the gen regression problem since there would be no overpowered killers to abuse 4 gen slowdown perks, and there would be no killers so weak that they need 4 gen slowdonw perks. And it would solve the problem of gen slowdown being boring to play against since it wouldn't be worth running gen slowdown in the first place. Of course this is essentially asking BHVR to fix problems the game has had for 8 years now, and this'll mever happen. But unless BHVR hunkers down and actually fixes the games core issues, the game will never be balanced, and gen regression will always be an issue.

This has been my argument for a long while now. You’ll just get Skull Merchant with 4 slowdowns on top of the base slowdown. The idea of wrath is really cool too.

This is a really cool concept

i honestly dont ever see a future where bhvr realizes killers have different strengths and make perks or gameplay reflect off that

Fix is to take out skill based matchmaking and make a separate ranked mode with skins/iri shards as rank rewards, the game doesn’t need to be super balanced the matches just need variety and if you want to sweat you should be rewarded

Honestly it is a good idea because, if necessary, you could go the extra step and tie generator regression perks' effects to this statistic. Then it's self balancing because weaker killers who need it get stronger benefits from those perks whereas stronger killers who don't get lesser benefits. Pretty good suggestion I think. Only problem is that it adds another level of complexity to an already fairly complex game. Take a new player who has no idea what any of these things means and try to explain to them what it is and, well... Yeah. Gonna be 90% of the work just trying to find an elegant way to present the information.

DBD has a fundamental problem where generators always seem too fast from the Killer side but you can't keep making them take longer because they're really boring on the Survivor side. Just as Killers don't log into the game to play Gen Defence Simulator, Survivors aren't there for Skillcheck Simulator. I think long term the game is going to have to reconsider the objectives, possibly adding a greater variety of things Survivors can do to open the gates beyond sitting on generators. But that's a massive change so Behaviour probably isn't keen. Similarly regression perks are clearly superior to all others and they probably need to bite the bullet and make it only possible to equip one, just like Exhaustion perks, in order to balance the game. But since they can't even seem to commit to finally fixing outliers like Nurse and Blight, they clearly aren't giving game health enough of a priority.

One thing I'd like to see is adaptive survivor repair speeds. Essentially, whenever a survivor is dead, the other survivors get a minor repair speed boost like 20%. When 4 survivors are repairing gens at the same time, they get a 18% repair speed nerf. If 3 are repairing maybe they get a 13% nerf. Numbers can be whatever, I'm not gonna bother balancing it perfectly unless someone pays me lol. Essentially, one could make the game adapt slightly to how the actual game is playing out, functioning as a counterweight to give a slight edge to teams that are completely struggling, while survivors that are feeling no pressure have to maintain that for a bit longer.

We saw what happened when people were saying, "buff killers more, then they won't camp and tunnel." Killer buffs happened, camping/ tunneling even worse. Same thing will happen with the gens

Good idea, problematic for a number of reasons besides the main reason mentioned (BHVR failing to gauge killer strength). Mainly, Ruin, which on certain maps right now is stronger than it has *ever* been thanks to the 5% repair rule kicking in every time you hop off a gen. This new regression value would either have to ignore or interact with Ruin's % value. While the former would make the perk obsolete, the latter would be dangerous considering the two killers you mentioned as the weakest are in fact fairly good (and in Trapper's case, insane) at defending totems. Hag and Demogorgon would have to be adjusted *solely* on the basis of being S-Tier Ruin defenders. Second, metas change based on new perks and seeming unrelated buffs/nerfs regularly. Remember when Ultimate Weapon turned Pig into the most lethal killer overnight last year due to the interruption of box searches? Now there would have to be another factor to balance around for every killer...and consultants or not, I don't trust BHVR to do the work required.

4 slow downs is still more then enough. Not to mention the ridiculous 3, 4, or even 5 gens that spawn together on quite a few maps but honestly you gotta expect some stress playing anything other then the top 5 killers so if you don't wanna feel stressed run 4 slow down Nurse or Blight every game which is what a lot of people are already doing.

They could segment the killers viability in different aspects, like Chase, Mobility and Map Pressure Every killer starts at 6% regress at kick and 0.50 charges per second, to each segment they score as good, they lose 1% and 0.05 respectively So a very strong killer wich is good at everything have half the regress power against a killer thats not very strong in all or some of these segments

You could use base gen defence as a way to incentivise more healthy game play, for example, if you gave a base kit grim embrace, that would only activate once you hooked all 4 survivors once. So after you hook all 4 and leave the hook all gens get blocked for however long (make it worth it) , you’d encourage killers to actually try and chase all 4 survs, this would turn off if you killed one before hooking all 4. Making changes this way means you could nerf the gen regression perks and people might start running other things because like it or not, no matter how much you nerf it killers will still run gen defence unless rewarded for doing otherwise. I doubt it will happen but there’s a world in which they balance the game to reward healthy gameplay more rather than just punishing people for playing efficiently. This wouldn’t address the issue of power levels between killers but would shake up the perks atletas and maybe make the gameplay loop more fun for everyone

I love the idea. I have two problems. The first is asking Behavior to work on something that is not directly contributing to revenue. Look at how long massive balance breaking problems take to fix, but they sure won't delay a chapter by minutes, no matter how broken it makes the game. The second problem is asking Behavior to work.

another downside is realistically low mmr. Trapper notoriously is pretty strong in low mmr and now you'd be buffing him there too. Same with nurse and blight, those two are not among the strongest in low mmr and now you are nerfing them. And I don't really see any realistic solution for that

The only problem i have with this is that good and bad killers arent good and bad at every level of player (billy for example), and balancing around high end players could affect the majority of other players in unintended ways. Thats why there is no concrete killer tier list for ALL levels of player

Great idea, but, according to the stats (which you can't argue with) Freddy is the 4th strongest killer in the game, while the Nurse is below average, so Freddy remains at 0.25 c/s after a gen kick, while the Nurse must be buffed to 0.75 c/s.