The First ARM Transition: Palm Dragonball CPU Emulation

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Janus Cycle

Janus Cycle

2 жыл бұрын

Twenty years before Apple transitioned their Mac operating system to M1 ARM based CPUs. Palm were doing it first. Not only did they have to rewrite their entire operating system. But they wanted to bring the existing library of tens of thousands of third party apps to this new OS. And do it seamlessly for the end user experience.
In this video I'm comparing the final Dragonball CPU based Palm PDA, the m515. To the following model, the Palm Tungsten T. With a new ARM based CPU and operating system. Both models were released in the same year of 2002. Did Palm achieve their objectives? And what strange things happened during this process?
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Many thanks to:
Dimitry.GR: dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj...
Les Hiddins, the Bush Tucker Man, bushtuckerman.com.au/
Rory O'Donoghue for the Bush Tucker Man theme
Romeo Knight for the track Rise Up, from the Red Sector Amiga demo

Пікірлер: 107
@blakegriplingph
@blakegriplingph 2 жыл бұрын
60KB for a 68k to ARM emulator? Whoever worked on that is one hell of a madlad! It also makes me wonder if this was done using an interpreter, a dynarec of some sort or a litany of NESticle-esque speedhacks to make full speed emulation possible with next to no intervention.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
With a powerful 144Mhz ARM CPU emulating a 33Mhz Dragonball they could have easily cut some corners and made something just 'good enough'. But they seemed to really go for it with tight code and a big hit right out of the gate. Madlads indeed!
@blakegriplingph
@blakegriplingph 2 жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle Shame it did not account for those that access the bare metal tho. Then again the goal was to get _commercial_ software to work, which had to respect the API.
@kreuner11
@kreuner11 Жыл бұрын
i've written stuff which's elf executables are smaller than that, id do it too
@dmitrygr
@dmitrygr Жыл бұрын
it is just an emulator. no dynarec. source: i am the DmitryGR
@kneesnap1041
@kneesnap1041 15 күн бұрын
Where can I hear about the hacks you say NESticle used?
@AlquimisOnline
@AlquimisOnline Жыл бұрын
I guess it could be said that the DragonBall Processor didn't have enough power level to be useful anymore... It would have been nice if they had released a better one and called it SuperDragonBall- If ya overclocked it, you could say it was using kaioken xD Honestly, I'm surprised that nobody made a DragonBall joke yet in the comments- Amazing video regardless, just found your channel and am loving to discover more about pdas and some tech from the early 2000s, its amazing to see what they could already do on mobile despite it being so early on o.o
@reisudesu
@reisudesu Жыл бұрын
You're a pioneer-jester. Congrats hehe
@FoxyDrew
@FoxyDrew 3 ай бұрын
If 7 of the DragonBall Processors just got together they could've just asked Shenron to make them more powerful to avoid being emulated and replaced.
@SirKenchalot
@SirKenchalot 2 жыл бұрын
And to think that iPods were a big thing in 2002 and 4khz of telephone quality audio is all Palm thought they'd need; what a self-inflicted would that must have been. It's amazing to see how far we've come in 20 years.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
And it took them three months to release the patch. Which was highly anticipated to arrive 'soon' by many in discussion forums. To be fair they were focused on their core market of general PDA users and did an outstanding job, but still.
@Sb129
@Sb129 2 жыл бұрын
Also kind of funny since Sony Clies had great audio and visual quality long before Palm did it, they even could use the ATRAC encoding like MDs
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
@@Sb129 I didn't think of ATRAC. Sony would of course use their experience with Minidisc technology when putting a decoder chip in their CLIEs. I will look at a CLIE one day.
@YS_Production
@YS_Production Жыл бұрын
There must've been a really good reason to put there the horrible low pass filter. Perhaps the sound chip was not well optimized and they had issues with battery life when running it at normal sampling rate? Anyone remembers whether there was a difference between before and after applying the patch?
@nickjeffrey8050
@nickjeffrey8050 Жыл бұрын
Wow that low pass filter issue really made a huuuuge difference
@braddofner6407
@braddofner6407 Жыл бұрын
Just found your channel. I like you. You explain things with the right amount of detail AND brevity. You are charismatic and hold my attention. Hats off to you, sir. May your blossom in subscribers! Oh, and thanks for taking an entire evening away from me while I binge watch memories on your channel. I had one of the OG B&W models, only once I could grab one on the used market ;). Most uncomfortable stylus I have ever used! Thank you for bringing this back. Things were so much simpler back then. And companies did once listen to their consumers. . . Once upon a time.....
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
You honour me with your kind compliments, thank you. Really glad you are enjoying the channel!
@kos256
@kos256 Жыл бұрын
This is now my new favorite old tech channel. I'm subbing.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
cool :)
@harrythezomby
@harrythezomby Жыл бұрын
Hey Janus, I used to love playing around on my mums old palm tungesten t as a kid a few years back. I never knew it had an arm cpu, or that interesting audio filter thingo. Thanks for another great video! 😄
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I'm pleased you are getting a kick out of the channel :)
@esseferio
@esseferio 2 жыл бұрын
I totally forgot about this architecture transition! Great video!
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! I do think Palm should be commended for what they were able to achieve here.
@prozacgodretro
@prozacgodretro Жыл бұрын
I think that's the mark of a great hardware transition. The only people that notice and remember are the nerds that consider it in retrospect, long after it happened, and not because of the impact it made.
@kaitlyn__L
@kaitlyn__L Жыл бұрын
The original firmware had the magical ability to turn all MP3s 32-64k sounding!
@oldtwinsna8347
@oldtwinsna8347 7 ай бұрын
I had the Tungsten. It was neat for a Palm since it was so much faster and could do so much more. Very well built. But the problem is that it was segmented in this catch-up mode with its competitors for the high-tech features. If you really were satisfied with old Palm programs you really did not need this more expensive PDA. And if you wanted more in terms of multimedia, this was far from the most competitive. As it was mentioned here, the video playback was just meh, and the wifi version I had was way too crazy slow for non-WAP HTML sites. In the end, those who itched to do modern post-2000 activities on a handheld device were left not too happy with the Tungsten. And of course, the late solution for Palm was the eventual development of what became the Palm Pre, which by then the ship had sailed for competitive marketplace.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 7 ай бұрын
It was an odd time for Palm. Sony were advancing their handhelds with hardware supported multimedia features using Palm OS4. While Palm were focused on developing Palm OS5 for multimedia. Yet still releasing PDAs with only basic functionality. It's really odd.
@scienceapps
@scienceapps Жыл бұрын
Really cool travelling shot at the end ! I didn't know about the voice filter implemented.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
Thank you. I really like Palm devices and Palm OS. I have a Tungsten T5 now that I'm exploring for a future video.
@scienceapps
@scienceapps Жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle I'm eager to see this ! Keep on going !
@samjackson7701
@samjackson7701 Жыл бұрын
I honestly didn't hear anything wrong with the MP3 you were playing initially, until I heard how it sounded AFTER the update... Wow!
@WhatALoadOfTosca
@WhatALoadOfTosca Жыл бұрын
Another great video. I could binge watch these for hours!
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I appreciate hearing that, thank you.
@dropedan
@dropedan Жыл бұрын
I really love your videos. And you deliver every info in such a relaxing way.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I'm glad your're enjoying, thanks for letting me know.
@edwardfletcher7790
@edwardfletcher7790 2 жыл бұрын
Heyyyy, a new video 👍 Love the Bush Ticket Man ! I've got all the episodes 😆
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
I recently watched through the series again after many years, really good stuff.
@wingmantx
@wingmantx Жыл бұрын
Tungsten T was one of my favourite, I loved the form factor quite a lot, It fits in my jeans front pocket. Metal housing and great build quality
@PrinzMidas
@PrinzMidas Жыл бұрын
Super interesting, your videos!
@TC-ec4fx
@TC-ec4fx Жыл бұрын
Love the choice of song... bush tucker man les. Australia is Awesome
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
Yep, Bush Tucker Man is still worth a re-watch even today!
@TC-ec4fx
@TC-ec4fx Жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle 100% Agree. top notch show top notch man.
@prla5400
@prla5400 2 жыл бұрын
I love your channel. Nice old tech. :D
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you
@slunky
@slunky Жыл бұрын
I have two Tungsten T's and a T2. Great stuff. Even have the 56K modem attachment.
@Bianchi77
@Bianchi77 Жыл бұрын
Nice video, thanks for sharing it :)
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed :)
@laz7354
@laz7354 Жыл бұрын
I was early on Palm and still have my old Tungsten T in a drawer. Fantastic device.
@DD8842
@DD8842 10 ай бұрын
You know with all the data gathering going on one of these could be of use these days
@Jbrimbelibap
@Jbrimbelibap 2 жыл бұрын
I got my hands on a phone that can run windows like the lumia you've shown, it's actually working very well, gpu support and all ! I find windows on arm very interesting, microsoft's x86 emulation is impressive
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
I agree, Windows runs surprisingly well on the Lumia for what it is, a phone from 2015. I really enjoy having Windows 11 on such a small device.
@nick-boson3590
@nick-boson3590 Жыл бұрын
I loved this one. I owned it but it got wrecked while I was photographing the BloodHound Gang. It was in my jacket while photographing and the manager of the band stepped on my jacked.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I really like your story of how the manager for the BloodHound Gang broke your Palm.
@Mad4400
@Mad4400 Жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle (sung to the tune of "The drummer from Def Leppard's only got one arm") THE MANAGER OF BLOODHOUND GANG JUST' STOOD ON MY PALM!
@alieris4514
@alieris4514 11 ай бұрын
hi janus, you have incredible will to continue for making this kind of videos (that makes me very happy ) exact same area of interest (mobile devices, hacking them, forcing them to do another task which they cant do default) i really feel myself in my confortzone, this videos lowering my anxiety. i hope you become something, something good, rich etc.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 11 ай бұрын
I'm glad you are enjoying these videos. Thanks for sharing your interest in them.
@Sb129
@Sb129 2 жыл бұрын
I believe you must hold the voice memo button down and it should start recording until released, it’s been a while though so idk. The only applications that don’t work well with the emulation wrote directly to hardware instead of Palm’s api. If you ask me, the reason Windows Mobile failed to transition to WP7 from WM 6.5 was the lack of a compatibility layer. Palm even made that misstep with WebOS, it was a walled off emulator you had to buy. If you want a good experience of later models I’d suggest the Zire 72s and the TX and maybe also the Tungsten T3.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the voice record button tip. I was wondering about that. I didn’t know that detail about WebOS legacy compatibility. Seems like quite a misstep. I do want to try a TX for the deluxe Palm OS 5 experience.
@Sb129
@Sb129 2 жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle Yep and if you want a top notch palm device the LifeDrive is also an option, its main storage is a 4 gb Microdrive but you can replace it with a CF card and one bigger than it came with.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
@@Sb129 I do want a LifeDrive. The catch would be that I like Microdrives so much now, that I would keep it running with one just to hear it working inside.
@Sb129
@Sb129 2 жыл бұрын
@@JanusCycle True, I do have another one "stock" with the Microdrive still in it.
Жыл бұрын
I'm glad I found this channel. Very impressive analysis. I'm my personal opinion, even though Palm did no invented mobile devices like these, I'm very sure their influence was very strong for modern devices. Is sad to see how it all ended :(
@MTM358
@MTM358 Жыл бұрын
I loved my Tungsten T back in the day. RIP Palm
@belstar1128
@belstar1128 2 жыл бұрын
Looking back i really wished i had one of these back in the 2000s when i think of palm i think about the ones from the 90s that only ran basic office programs but being able to do some of the things on here like playing videos and music would have made things a lot less boring for me i school and while traveling.
@NoobixCube
@NoobixCube 2 жыл бұрын
I literally don't think I've thought of the Bush Tucker Man since the 90s. Good o'l Major Les.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Top bloke that Les.
@dotcomDan
@dotcomDan 2 жыл бұрын
With Ask The Leyland Brothers & Harry Butler all gone bush Les definitely dominated the charts
@zromitsman
@zromitsman Жыл бұрын
to say that what palm pulled off is impressive is but a mere understatement.
@rigues
@rigues Жыл бұрын
A friend had a Palm Zire 71 with the same CPU, which was good enough for playable Sega Genesis emulation. It was quite a shock for me to see the original Sonic The Hedgehog running on a pocketable device!
@FoxInkling
@FoxInkling 5 ай бұрын
I have a Zire 71 as well, i'mma update you when I get a charger and a new battery
@BrianCairns
@BrianCairns Жыл бұрын
Of course, Apple also transitioned from the Motorola 68k to a RISC CPU by building an emulator into the operating system, though it was the PowerPC instead of ARM. Given Apple's involvement with ARM at the time (because of the Newton), there's an alternate reality in which Apple chose ARM to replace the 68k instead of PowerPC. Instead it took them another 20 years and two extra transitions to get there. (For what it's worth, ARM based Mac systems are 64-bit only, and 64-bit ARM is very different from 32-bit ARM)
@samuraijaydee
@samuraijaydee 10 ай бұрын
Can you tell me what that battery option in the preference panel is? I converted one of my Palm 3xe to lithium batteries, but the OS battery level indicator is tuned to normal AAAs, and has no idea about the lithium cell. Thank you! Love your videos 😁
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 10 ай бұрын
It's probably this palmdb.net/app/battery-prefs Good site for Palm apps.
@mrttype
@mrttype Жыл бұрын
Awesome tune on the demo. Sounds like SWIV. Dude - you didn’t demo Raging Thunder gameplay. What is the framerate like?
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I think I remember trying it, I believe I would describe the framerate as 'not smooth'
@njwilksy
@njwilksy Жыл бұрын
nice
@Mad4400
@Mad4400 Жыл бұрын
Due to my work I often come across old business related technology. Things like mobile phones, tablets, toughbooks and PDAs that get forgotten about in the bottom drawer of a desk or collected up and stored at the back of the highest shelf in the office store room when a company issues its staff with new tech. Since owning a Treo 750, I've had an interest in Palm products and I was excited to find a m515 and just recently a Tungsten T3. Finding detailed information on old devices like these is often difficult, so it's always a pleasure to watch a video focusing on these handhelds that offers some of the history and reasoning behind the design and not just a retrospective review of the product and it's functions.
@dotcomDan
@dotcomDan 2 жыл бұрын
My Treo650 does AR great with very good sounding ringtones but the wi-fi SD card just will not mount so thats really something a great video -+ RED SEKTOR +-
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Ahh the Treo 650. The pinnacle of pre-iPhone smartphones.
@lorddeecee
@lorddeecee Жыл бұрын
yooooo i love that anime
@ChaseMC215
@ChaseMC215 Жыл бұрын
Man, this video has a sick tune in the title card, but I couldn't figure out what that song is. Can anyone help me with that plase? Edit: nevermind, I found it a while ago apparently. Nice amiga tune.
@mazij0nkgunza
@mazij0nkgunza Жыл бұрын
I m indonesian but still watch the old phone like that..nice job bro.
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Жыл бұрын
I'm glad you enjoyed
@fatcat7msk7ru
@fatcat7msk7ru Жыл бұрын
Nice device, i had TX at the time, great memories. It was smart enough to remember and instantly open last open app. Only bad thing it wasn't any waterproof even too light rain. Can be killed with few drops, same easy as it's predecessors.
@lenadams854
@lenadams854 3 ай бұрын
Could you try to give the palm tungsten a capacitive touchscreen? Not like the pres
@breakingbadatron8874
@breakingbadatron8874 2 жыл бұрын
will you be covering the flood of win8.1/win10 tablets someday?
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 жыл бұрын
Windows 8.1 will be ten years old next year! I do have a Windows 8 or 8.1 tablet, but I got it with no battery. I'd like to get it up and running one day. Windows 10 tablets may take a while to become 'old' and find their way to me. I do have a cheap Windows 10 tablet that I bought new. I used it in my Windows 11 computer video to install onto the Lumia. It's weird because there are no drivers made available and no mention of how to reinstall Windows. I'm not very comfortable with these new ways technology works.
@sam4D
@sam4D Жыл бұрын
damn this is fucking entrtaining
@yeety1208
@yeety1208 11 ай бұрын
palm is just the best
@iwakartiwaiwakartiwa2315
@iwakartiwaiwakartiwa2315 11 ай бұрын
Uniq style and aplication
@PnevmoSlon-wu1fs
@PnevmoSlon-wu1fs Жыл бұрын
Which is better tungsten t2 or t3?
@Albertkallal
@Albertkallal Жыл бұрын
t3 was a much better model. In place of a 320x320 screen, you get a 320 x 480 when you extend the unit. The graffiti area on the button is "virtually" on the t3 (they used the screen). So, graffiti could be hidden, and you write directly anywhere on the screen. Or you could go old school, and have the screen bring up on the bottom the classic graffiti writing area. When you did/do that, then you back to a 320x320 screen. The other advantage is that t3 had great support for "landscape" mode. I mean, flip the t3 horizonal, and in extended mode, you would have a 480x320 screen - and it was able to do a remarkable job of say displaying a spreadsheet. And also I used to watch movies and shows all the time. I had a PVR, and it could write to a dvd-rw. So, I would record say a week worth of shows, write them out to that dvd-rw. I then popped the dvd into my PC, and converted the video's to a lower screen res, and frame rate (15 fps). I then transferred all the shows to a SD card, and voilà! - a week worth of shows to watch on my T3. And in full mode (480x320), you had quite a large screen by that time frame standards. I had OFTEN stated that when they introduced their phones, I wanted a T3 as a phone with the screen. But, apple did that!!! And at that time Blackberry was oh so popular, so their phone models had keyboards. (I wanted a unit without keyboard - like the T3). but, the T3 in many ways was ahead of its time. A larger format pda, all touched based, and a screen that extends when you open/slide the device open. And sliding the device to extended is how mine was setup to "turn on". I used that T3 for a about 7-9 years. In fact after 5 years of hard use, a friend of mine who bought one at the same time gave me his unit (hardly used much - not like I beat the unit I had to death). so, with that near new palm, I carried on for about 4 more years!!! I miss that device, but I was watching shows and movies on that thing long before smartphones + say this youtube video stuff came along!!!
@user-ci8zu1wx2z
@user-ci8zu1wx2z Ай бұрын
if it werent for palm we wouldnt have smartphone
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle Ай бұрын
I agree, modern phones owe their UI design to Palm.
@matt.willoughby
@matt.willoughby 11 ай бұрын
Bush tucker man!
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 11 ай бұрын
great guy!
@birdbowah
@birdbowah 2 ай бұрын
DRAGONBALL?!
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 2 ай бұрын
The CPU was named after the character :)
@AndroidFerret
@AndroidFerret Жыл бұрын
Dragonball ??
@ToniMorton
@ToniMorton Жыл бұрын
oh god the speakers remind me of the video now flip device. so fucking crappy of a video player. they have specialized cds that were made to not be the same size as normal dvd/cds and the slightlest nudge makes them skip frames.
@hamzamalik7305
@hamzamalik7305 Жыл бұрын
😅 my smartphone have 128000MB
@gamma_dc8289
@gamma_dc8289 Жыл бұрын
Where the hell is goku
@ChaseMC215
@ChaseMC215 Жыл бұрын
He's on a different planet at the time.
@Ted13122
@Ted13122 11 ай бұрын
I have the same one in perfect condition, as well as many other models, I collect them
@JanusCycle
@JanusCycle 11 ай бұрын
Nice, great to hear from a fellow Palm collector :)
@RetardedCosmo
@RetardedCosmo 3 ай бұрын
they'd better got rid of this god awful grafitti and the wasted space the writing area uses.
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