Also to add, the comparison which we have done here are between M88-2 (used in Rafale) and F404-402 (used in Hornets) both are baseline engines of their class. Higher thrust version of both engines also exist. The engine used in LCA Tejas is the F404 IN20 where max thrust is 84kN and dry thrust is above 52kN but in that case mass flow rate of engine has been increased thus the SFC is more too. In the case of M88, there is also an engine M88-3 which was proposed as a replacement to GE/Volvo’s RM12 engine producing dry 54kN thrust and max 80kN thrust replacement producing max 85-90kN thrust with same weight giving better T/W ratio but again better SFC than F404. So, please don’t be confused

Whenever I found related to Kaveri development, my reactions - " to kar na, parisan ho gaye hum" 😡😡

I say KAVERI is the future. No Safran nor Rolls Royce. We have come this far with Kaveri, we need to improvise a little more. What we need to understand is that Jet engine is a very critical type of technology and no country is going to give it, no matter what. I am not confident that the French are going to be ready to part away with their engine technology, the deal with Safran might simply involve screwdriver-giri like, they may let us manufacture some of the engine parts but the core tech which our scientists need will not be shared. Same with UK's RR. At the end of the day, it's our money and efforts which will give out the desired input. Rafale uses two Snecma M88 engines. It can generate a maximum thrust of 50 kN (11,200 lbf) without afterburner and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) with afterburner. During many tests of the Indian Kaveri, the engine was able to generate a thrust of 16,000-17,000 lbf (70-75 kN). I think the problem with Kaveri is that it's inefficient in terms of shelf life, though it can generate the desired amount of thrust that an engine of it's dimensions should, the engine blades would later break, and this posed a problem. India is self dependent in many things, many times the world refused to give us access to certain technologies, what did we do? We built them indigenously in house itself because we needed to. I strongly believe that India is on the verge of finally cracking jet engine technology through the Kaveri programme, and when that happens we can proudly say that India is truly Atmanirbhar in aerospace technology.

Power output is about the same Kaveri 49kN dry 74kN wet thrust (derated Kaveri engine for Ghatak), M88 50kN dry and 75kN wet but M88 is much lighter by 200kg.

It appears the first Kaveri engine was operated in 1995. It's been 29 years in the making. How many years more before we hear of successful launch of the indigenous engine ?

For supercruise, you need higher exhaust velocities, which is a function of nozzle design. Trade-off is you don't get much "delta" with afterburners. Another trade-off is the shock induced losses in the nozzle at high exhaust velocities. All these thrust figures you see are at stationary conditions i.e on a test bed.

I like your starting music....

achha agar M88 is so good and France is more reliable than the US then why do we use F404 for Tejas ??

Everything being put in its perspective good job nobody else told in such clear way..... Alot of doubts r cleared

Also the dimensions of m88 engine is very small which gives more space in the airframe for other equipments or fuel.. This in itself is a very important factor why rafale has such a good range inspite of such a small airframe.

Can we not use 2 kavery engine in the AMCA testbed/prototype? Can we not use kavery in the LCA MK2 testbed/prototype

If dry thrust as stated by defence matrix for m-88 is approx 50 kn and for kaveri engine 45-48 kn tho "unees bhis ka fharak hai " Or rather in this case "adtalaasis aur pachaas ka farak hai".

Can M 88 replace F 404 to improve the performance of Tejas Mark 1As and be a safeguard against US interventions in our programs?

Not only M88 and F404, If we compare other French and American engines, French engines have higher dry thrust but lower wet thrust, while American engines have lower dry thrust but higher wet thrust. Why do they follow different approach?

The thrust to weight ratio is not the most important thing in an engine, engine shelf life, maintenance period and reliability is the biggest parameters European engines at least one decade ahead of the Russian ones ( only exception are AL 41or Izdeliya 30 but not superior compared to the American ones)

Good information 👍

Sir why we don't use snigma m88 engine in tajes instade of f404 enjine

Excellent video

V must keep improving the kaveri platform more and more ,one day v vil succeed for sure ..absolutely don’t discontinue the program

How Gripen NG is able to perform super cruise with F414 engin? It's mentioned in their official website

Kaweri is under progress,we achieve this.

As soon as possible, we need Kaveri engine technology

Very detailed video

Very good and detailed comparison 👍🏼👍🏼!! Where did you get the detailed specs of M88 and F404?

Good video , both positive and negative aspect covered .

Completely shutting down Marut was a huge blunder from our side…that jet failed due to bad engine only…Marut should be restarted again with improved materials, engine, avionics, radar, etc.

well made video

We should invest in m88-3&4 in a jv for joint ip and tot. M88-3 for mk1a& rafale . m88-4 for tedbf and mirage 2000. Future engine for amca & mk2.

Mark my words KAVERY WILL BE A GAME CHANGER ....

50 years in making , had been listening Kaveri engine since 1970s , a never ending project.

Always remember that the deeds you do now will only be visible in the future. In present we have to face such challenges and back-talks, but after successfully developing a jet engine all those things doesn't matter. Atmanirbhar is the future.

There is a sham in rejecting this engine. Though it's a good engine it generates less power and the present need is much more.

Hamara pehla kaam kaveri engine ko proven category me dalwana hai uske baad isko multiple engines ke sath bombers me use Karna hai v lighter fighter a/c single seater me bhi use kar sakte hain jo emergency air support ke liye faaydemand ho sakta hai

Weight reduction below 1000 Kg is must for Kaveri to succeed. Even if we are able to enhance thrust weight reduction is key for this engine to be used in Kaveri.

India's Kaveri project to build jet engines must be the world's longest defense project with no end in sight. In the early 1980s, India started a defense project to build jet engines domestically for the Jetas aircraft, this project was eventually canceled 3 decades later due to technical difficulties and the lack of progress. This newly revived Kaveri project is likely to suffer the same as the earlier one. India's decision to build jet engines under license with GE and Safran clearly shows it has no confidence in its Kaveri project. When compared to India, China was able to become self-sufficient in jet engine production in a much shorter period of time. After 40 years, India is still struggling to build a viable jet engine, this reflects India's wasteful spending and incompetence.

Sir ji GE 404 new update engine is good or not !? Compare with kaveri

Why don't we use F414 in Tejas mk 1a

yes gotta keep it going. gas turbine version for naval cargo vessels, UAVs or any applications we can use and develop further. we have to keep it going unlike marut. India invested very little money on engine development and expects a lot.

You have made a good comparison between F404 & M88, you dont have details of same parameters of kaveri. We do not invest money, also always scared of doing new things. Rafale is a twin engine, Kaveri is + - 5KN engine. DRDO/ADA should attempt twin engine kaveri, enough reserves are always there with every engine, the life is always dependent on how its operated nothing is santum santorum. I was witness to destructive testing of kaveri in BHEL hyderabad 15 years back. We have done a good job with Tejas & GSLV, similarly kaveri also will improve over the period. The BEST OPTION. ANY AMOUNT OF TOT WILL NOT COMPARE WITH OWN TECHNOLOGY.

I have the notion that M88 is itself a notch above Kaveri and F404. M88 is in fact comparable to the base variant of F414. Anyway, Bharat is interested in dry thrust 110Kn , not dry thrust 50Kn engine development with Safran. But Kaveri engine is gearing up for another job and it is a wholly GTRE initiative . The Kaveri engine dry variant for Ghatak UCAV has passed the high altitude testing at Gromov and has generated 48.5 Kn of dry thrust - one of the best in its category. Godrej had been provided the tech to create 6 units of this Kaveri which will undergo inflight testing. Once it passes, Ghatak's engine is ready but work will start on an afterburning variant of this successful engine - There would be the need to reduce weight and develop heat dissipation bypassing airflow because afterburning temperatures reach higher than dry thrust. The competition of the Kaveri is not with the M88, but with GE F404, because of geo politics. In upcoming days Kaveri's success is most important so that GE takes a case and delivers all the GE F414 units and do not stall Tejas Mk2 development. The way US senate is , it is completely unreliable - we cannot keep looking forward to Trump and Ramaswamy to better our chances . USA has lot of issues itself and we have involved France in a bigger 110Kn dry thrust project. Its safe to go ahead with the Kaveri instead of reinventing M88 again. Moreover with more Rafale order and its make in India clause , the M88 core will make its way here itself. Dassault and Thales are both setting up workshops in Bharat now...Safran is just some declarations away. But Kaveri engine will not die and would kick GE out of Tejas projects soon.

Le indian analyst- paper engine vs actual engine...our engine is best😂😂😂

No matter what, kaveri should keep flowing, current can vary

Both generate similar thrust but the problem is our tejas is single so we need high thrust engine. Fault of ADA to make Tejas a single engine jet

We are using single engine on Tejas mk1 or mk1a and that to also GE engine why can't we use two kaveri engines on Tejas mk 2 which is coming up and also on TDEF which is also we are making and we can still make some innovations on kaveri engine and that can be used on AMCA.

There's a F414 version capable of super cruise used in Gripen E

Kaveri dry thrust 52 kn generate karta hai.!

Jai Hind Jai Bharat Like no 2

I think we should develop this engine to produce 80 kn wet and 50 dry in thrust but make them more better than Russian in life service and others thing so we can use it in ship mig 29 etc

Whenever you do comparison, show it in a table format that will be more easy to understand instead of showing same video repeatedly.

Problem with after burner section seems to me of METTULERGIC nature we have to do additional research on it

Can we use Katerina in Jagur fighter planes

we should reduce the size of kaveri engine by 10% proportionately which will reduce its weight

Sir, Can you also make a video on how much capable Rafael is compared to fifth gen fighters of our rivals?? As fifth gen for IAF is 1 decade away from today.

This is not the time for comparison of Kaveri engine -local vs Safran. We must continue to work on Kaveri and make it a viable alternative, while working with Safran to understand what works and why. That is the way , let us not sit on judgment.

नमस्कार कावेरी इंजन यहां तक बना हे तो आजके एटमॉस्फियर में जरूर अच्छा बन जायेगा बस लगे रहना हे। आखिर हवाईजाहाजो में आत्मनिर्भर जो होना हे।

Samw Engine Ge404 Gripen C-D is able To carry load of 5500kg and Do Air to air Suprer cruise? What about that?

To m88 ko Tejas may use ku nahi kia jata?

An important fact is that Tejas is lighter than Rafale. That makes a lot of difference

Hamre desh ke best scientist ko hire karke isse improve Krna chahiye. Agar videsh se scientist higher ho sake to oonhe bhi hire Krna chahiye

The problem with kaveri is its super heavy and it is not producing a good thrust according to its weight. Yeah thrust to weight ratio matters.

problem in India is ham ek to 100 jane ki koshish kar rahe hai...ek dam nahi hota...development step by step process hai...dhere dhere hoga...bada engine dheere dheere develop hojata hai...chote plane chote engine se to ban skate? we need 100% made in India aircraft badia ho ya ya na self-reliance should be priority 🙏

Sir, I have a question that why India is not using snigma M88 engine in LCA Tejas, beside GE 404 ,if france is redy to share its fully engine technology to us and America is trying to deley f404 engine supply 🙄, please make a detailed video on this topic

Without the foreign partnership its not possible for us to develop eco sysem of cutting edge defense technologies

GTRE ko kaveri ko Jaguar ke size wala varient bhi banana chahiye tha kyunki ki current Jaguar ke engine se Kaveri ke numbers achche hai😊

Development of such niche products need National vision not number counting and stat comparing. We are running Jaguars on jugaad after their engines have degraded. Whatever thrust Kaveri produced an aircraft should have been built around it, single or double engined. Thats how one improves their future performance. The current approach will lead to Kaveri being an wternal lab rat, especially with the attitude of our armed forces where they demand perfection from indigenous products but downplay deficiencies in foreign platforms

Then please make a video why F404 was selected instead of M88 for Tejas MK1? Since we know US can't be trusted at any cost and France is quite a reliable partner then why F404?

Paisa vaisa kharchna nahi hai performance chahiye M88 jaisi😂. Ek Aircraft to do hamare Kaveri ko testing ke liye. Russia bhejna padta hai. Itni dependency rahegi to ho gaya indigenous jet engine.

Mera ek sawal hai ki। Ham Sukhoi 30 mki upgrade me russian AL 41 ki jagha ek baar USA ka F110 132 engine kyo nhi try karte Jo ab 142kn thrust kr better' performance deta hai sath hi jyada reliable and low maintenance engine h

Difference M 88 is proven technically & using it in mighty Rafael aircraft. Kaveri is still under developmental stages. Maybe better than M 88 in longer run. It's stupidly to compare which will create unnecessary confusion. Jai Hind

Could anyone clarify if Kaveri engine project is still alive..?

Too improve Kaveri engine we don't need any French 🥖 help all we need is to utilise GE F414 INS6 core technology like single crystal turbine blades and heat absorbent material for the hot section and other technology we are getting

Kaveri story has been told for at least forty if not fifty years year. Enough said.

India ke pas khud ka engine hona jaruri hai🔥🔥bhale use na kari jaye ,taki Koi desh blackmail, pressure na daal ske .

If we can fire 120km astra then not required 100kn engine.just fire and move from fire point.

kaveri's biggest problem is vibrations and a bit overweight. it's not totally fixed yet.

Don't worry guys, current geopolitics situation ko dekh kar lagata h ki govt serious h kaveri ki revival ko lekar

To Bhai iss pe bhi Ek video bna do tejas ko underpower Kyu diya gya hai f414 ya ej2000 Wala engine Kyu nahi

No way M88 is already running in active mode in 200 +aircrafts. Kaveri is in development phase.

why aren't we putting m88 in tejas then, we can get TOT for m88 and use it for tejas that way if we order more rafaels it will help in maintenance and future upgrades too.

agar ye safran ke engine jitna acha hai...aur agar safran jitni tehnology humne engine me develop kr li hai to ..safran ke sath joint venture ...koi matlb nhi bnata ..so i guess roll royce ke sath deal jyda acha rhega..baki aap sab apni raay reply krke de skte hain ..jai hind ❤

Time between overhaul Parts availablity Cost

Duniya 5th generation bana chuki hai aur hum abhi tak 4th generation jets ke liye engine nahi bana rahe hai

If m88 is better than ge-404, then don't understand why m88 was not used in LCA

After Ram Mandir all I want to see Indian Fighters with Indian engines in my lifetime.

Then y not M88 on tejas y f404??

Had we ask Safran to modify M88 for Tejas and manufacture in India they could have done it,,,,,

5th Gen. Fighter khraridna hoga,sath sath 6tj/7th Gen fighter progrmme suru karna hoga.

Try to wt reduced.and increase thrusts. Good try.

Question: so why did we go with GE F404 and not with M88 as France is definitely more reliable than uncle sam

we need to work not leave kaveri like orphan. this technology will help you like arjun tank helps DRDO in zoravar tank

We can use kaveri engine successfully for an medium weight twin engine fighter aircraft we could get away with sanctions

Why we are not using M88 engine for our tejas ?

But it's an Indian engine and if we use it we can definitely improve it with time

If Kaveri Engine successful in upcoming days can we those engines as a Twin engine in Teja NextGen Model?

Sir, if M88 is better than F404 and France is a more reliable partner than the USA for India, why did India choose F404 for LCA Tejas? Is their any other reason except costs

Kaveri can be used for ucav i guess

Bas ab bhout ho gaya saare defence sector ki top companies ko milao aur iss kaveri engine ko redevelopment karo..like china...

तीनों इंजन का एक एक्सेल शीट टेबल बना के दिखा देते यार। 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 वीडियो pause करके तुलना कर लेते??? 🤔😅🇮🇳

We love India, we support LRDE, DRDO. But whoever compares M88 to Kavery has a few screws loose .

Only in paper when We will have