Totally! It's impossible for any one person to address everything that needs to be addressed in conversations about gender (or pretty much anything else) so it's much more useful to just add to what folks say rather than tear them down for leaving stuff out.

Yeah, I was hesitating to watch cause I thought it was going to add to the pile. This is good.

@@piperaislinn2511 i feel like not only it's impossible to cover every perspective, It's would also a counterproductive ideal. It's better to cover properly limited talking points and not overstep the limits of what you have authority over. We can't expect Contrapoints to digest all of the reading on gender for us.

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I'm not sure if it's fair to paint Natalie as the Spokesperson For All Trans people since I mostly see her as the anti-fascist, anti-white supremacy lady.

A male contrapoints is likely needed for transmen to speak out against the noise

Same. I always felt she didn't talk enough about trans men, I left some comments about it in some of her vids i think, but guess what... she's a trans woman and she speaks from THAT perspective, and that's ok. She's said multiple times she doesn't speak for every LGBTQ+ person out there. This video (and all I've seen from NB people/ trans guys in response to Natalie's vids) is necessary. We need the perspectives and experiences of other people.

Thank you. In fact, I feel it would be weird for her to speak on behalf of transmen.

I don't think she needs to speak for trans men, but maybe a few more qualifiers every now and then where it is, "and don't forget the trans men". I have no problem with her focusing on the transwoman perspective, because that is what she is.

But she leaves them out entirely. I feel its because she's catering to a narrative though. That really hit home when he said "what are we transitioning into?"

I agree with this, on an ideal level, but I don't feel - at least in my lifetime - that we will ever be able to get beyond gender. Gender is so entrenched in how we view people, we can view exactly the same traits as totally different when presented by someone of another gender. If you're a woman and try to imitate a male role model, chances are, unless you adapt it some way to the fact that you are female, most people will not like you very much, and vice versa. So I think it's useful to analyse what it means to be a "good man" and a "good woman" separately, if you want to get beyond the purely theoretical

Spiderman truly is where it's at. In Spiderman homecoming when Peter was trapped under that rubble, crying, but hyping himself up to overcome the metaphorical burden of the pressures of power as well as the actual burden of the fucking pillars of concrete, that was such a compelling overlap of vulnerability and strength.

But isn't kind of strange to idealise traits in the first place? For example being loud or shy isn't a personality fault... it's just part of who you are. It doesn't make you good or bad if you're conflict averse, or meticulous, or energetic and empathetic. Why put ourselves in boxes and try to contort ourselves to be things we're not? It's far better to just accept yourself. Personality traits can be assets or weaknesses depending on the context. When you can understand that and learn to love yourself is when we can truly grow into adults.

In my perspective, feminism worked to break women out of boxes that their gender put them in. It worked to do exactly what you're pointing out. Not an ideal woman. But just a complex and as good as can be person. And I think that maybe that should be happening for men too. Not to create a better box. But to let them know that they're just people, who can get anywhere regardless of gender

@@KatieBadenhorst It depends on what the traits are; most are neutral, but there are definitely good and bad traits. Sadism to the extent you like cutting the tails off cats, inability to admit to or learn from mistakes, greed, narcissism, dishonesty... these are all things that are harmful to other people, yourself, or (most commonly) both. You shouldn't just accept that you are one of these things and leave it at that. Adulthood isn't *just* about loving yourself. It's about understanding, recognizing, and improving yourself as well. You can accept the way you are and your worth as a human but still recognize that things need changing. As a personal example, I'm messy and always have been. I have just accepted it and dealt with it for most of my life. But I can't *just* accept it because it hinders me. I've been working on changing it, because I know I will be much happier without stuff all over the floor and with the ability to find things quickly. Being messy doesn't make me a bad or unlikable person, but it is a problem, and it does need to be improved.

Unless your physically transitioning your not transsexual, I'm not sure what id class none binary folk as, probably just people who either haven't the courage to transition yet or are just trying to highjack the trans narrative, some are transvestites and crossdessers who hate those terms and want to be called something else so none binary fits the bill, I've even heard the term a male lesbian recently, which shows how people want to make up daft terms just to irritate genuine transsexual folk.

Actually, a lot of non-binary people medically transition in some way, they might only take hormones or only get certain surgeries in an attempt at a more ambiguous anatomy, unlike binary trans people, who would go through transition specifically wanting to be seen as only male or female

@@nicolajohnson1887 Trans is being used here as an umbrella term for people who identify as a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth/raised and socialized as. I don't think they're really hijacking the trans narrative, they're a part of it. Binary trans and nonbinary people do have very different experiences but they don't take away from one another. If you want to learn more about what being nonbinary means, there are lots of cool nonbinary youtubers who can tell you about themselves, such as Ash Hardell.

nicola johnson hush nicola you are a dummy and you are embarrassing yourself omg

@@madnessends2477 I'm just not buying the folk who don't transition fully if your mtf and like having a cock your guy same with ftm if you like having a vag, I get that the surgeries are scary and expensive but that the risk you have to take, I'm sorry but transvestites and crossdessers and fantacists are not trans and are just confusing the general public and causing genuine transsexual to be put in danger, so unless you are 100% serious about fully transitioning then stick being cis.

I'm glad you posted this here. It's refreshing to see cis men wanting to collaborate with trans men on Building a Better Man so to speak.

@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice I agree: I'm a cis man and I feel this need too.

mischief UwU

Off topic, but I love your pfp.

@@anon9359 The pfp is a character from animated web series called Interface. If you haven't please watch the web series on KZfaq, I may sound annoying but I want this series to get all the attention it deserves.

​@@homosapien9526 Oh, no worries! I already knew it was Mischief, that's why I complimented it, lol. But I totally get where you're coming from, if someone were to say they liked mine, I'd hope they'd know where it's from too because it also deserves love.

Hard disagree. I am shit-scared of butterflies and moths.

and that's exactly what a woman can do too. everyone can do that. apply good things you adore or look up to from other people in ones own life. kinda sad how something so easy does not get understood by the vast majority ..

Burnkastel I mean yeah, but you kinda detracted from my point

@Burnkastel Exactly. It’s so simple yet society still can’t grasp this very basic idea.

@@ahhh4117 You want to be ''non threatening''? Then you better not be a man. Society sees men as threatening by default. What are you going to do to change societal out look on men? Be a ''nice guy''. People hate ''nice guys''

Trevor Cormier I come from a feminist background, be like Chris Evans, Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, Steve Irwin, or Freddie Mercury. None of them are threatening. I’m 5’5, and I dress like a 50s schoolboy, who am I gonna threaten.

The part on intravenous injection being more masculine is what got me.

My friend is pregnant right now and she has vision problems sometimes because her nutrients are being syphoned from her

Yet another reason as an afab enby that I vastly prefer cats to reproducing.

UndercoverAkatsuki I've been waiting to hear something about this! I'm bisexual and have been dating a man the whole time I've been out so I have very little perspective on what its like to be a straight trans man outside of Jammidodger. Trans men can usually go stealth much earlier than trans women as well, at least in the current state of things. Would love to learn more.

@@rob0tt4rmy I'm super anxious abt having this discussion out in the open because youtube and The Discourse I guess, so I hope you'll forgive me for DMing you my reply instead of putting it in the comment chain? can you even DM people on youtube?? i am Idiot

What you say about toxic masculinity often being more of a straight male thing is very true. I think a lot of gay/bi men wind up giving up the rat race of alpha males by default bc for one, str8 men won't even let them compete in the pecking order and two, a lot of toxic masculinity is built around "sexual prowess" with women. It sort of reminds me of my experience growing up of ignoring female beauty standards as I got older bc I wasn't "conventionally pretty" and identified as smart and nerdy. That made it easy to focus on my intelligence and interests as defining personal traits over my appearance. I wasn't really masculine, but I couldn't fit with the feminine norms so I lost interest. In some ways, not having the option of trying to live up to certain norms can becoming freeing in and of itself. It's a good point also that trans men likely have the privilege over trans women to assimilate more into cis masculinity, which impacts the conversation around masculinity and manhood, although I do think it's worth noting that the process of transition and essentially having to construct your male identity after being "socialized" as a girl, for lack of a better word, presents the unique opportunity for a great amount of introspection on what it means to be a man and to break away from traditional conceptions of masculinity, even if many straight trans men don't take that opportunity. But yeah, it's worth pointing out the huge difference between straight trans men and...the rest of us. I often could not relate to trans male spaces and narratives as a bisexual nonbinary person. When they'd give advice on "getting rid of" any "feminine" mannerisms or ways of speech or instruct other trans guys on how not to "be like a girl" it just struck me as invalidating as someone who both identifies with womanhood to some extent and also whose sense of masculinity is a decidedly queer one. Despite that, I've internalized some of those ideas at times, and had thoughts about not seeming "too girlY" to "pass," but my attempts to do that often feel forced. So it's easy for me to see how many straight trans guys' approach to transition could mirror how cis straight guys' experience in puberty of striving to eliminate all "traces of femininity" and "manning up," even if trans guys' motivations come from a different place (e.g. fear of being misgendered, insecurity about the "legitimacy" of their manhood, challenges of being taken seriously as a man).

This thread is absolutely fantastic, so many different angles to think about.

wow. as a fellow gay trans guy/transmasc I relate So Hard to this. thanks for putting your comment out there! 🤠

As someone who had male friends before I transitioned I know how men can be especially in group's, but I had male friends who were not toxic or misogynistic, so you can be nice and be male, just be yourself and let the rest take care of myself.

I dated a trans guy who embodied toxic masculinity. Your comment gives me hope that feminist trans men can exist and care about women's safety and happiness.

That is the idea of Rock-type Pokemon. They're not sensitive, but they use their thick, hard shells to benefit others.

It's like a demon thats inside of you from the moment you're born an it wakes up when you notice something's wrong.

@Feli Aslan I see what you mean. I don't really care if I'm seen as masculine or feminine, as long as people see me as a guy. The thing I'm most dysphoric about isn't something that could "give me away" as a trans guy, so it's much more physical then social (I used to get literal phantom limb's type of thing with my dick before I started packing 24/7). Pre- transition, I was super obsessed with proving how masculine and strong I am, but as soon as I started my transition, I no longer wish to "prove my strength" as my 13 year old self would say. I don't care if people think I'm a wuss, as long as they see me as male.

same

I think this is one of those things that varies a lot from trans person to trans person. For me, physical dysphoria exists, but I can ignore it a lot of the time, particularly when I'm home alone. What bothers me most is how people perceive me. That's what has made me finally break down and seek a testosterone prescription because I couldn't stand being treated as a woman day in and day out. The dissonance i feel between my self-perception and how others see me has become unbearable. I honestly feel like if people stopped gendering me or treating me as a woman, I would not feel the need to transition. But to be fair, I identify as nonbinary, so I definitely can't speak for trans men.

@@lees2404 yep, this 100%

Have to second this. And A LOT of women are terrified and uncomfortable about pregnancy. As a gender non conforming woman I was really hoping to gain an insight into how the trans male experience is different, but by this definition I'd be trans too! I am sure there is more to it though, so I'm really keen to watch more of these videos to see if these neuonces get elaborated on further. Some thoughtful stuff in there!

@@mandy3404 There is honestly a lot of overlap in the experiences of GNC women and trans afab people. I think many women and trans afab ppl struggle with the same challenges of unwanted sexual attention from men, expectations to fit a rigid gender role, pressure to be "beautiful," as well as the pains and discomforts of periods or risk of pregnancy. I think one major difference for trans people is an added layer of dissonance. One thing I noticed (as a nonbinary person) is that I have always been frustrated by microaggressions of being taken less seriously or being dismissed or treated as unreasonable bc I am seen as a woman--that's probably true of everyone raised in the female gender role. But one difference I noticed more recently, since I started the process of obtaining a testosterone prescription which has made my feelings of dysphoria a lot more acute as I wait on the treatment and reflect a lot on my gender, is that on top of those ordinary feelings of frustration I feel even MORE frustration and pain over the feeling that people aren't just mistreating me as a woman but seeing me as something I am not. It's like those "female experiences" clash with my internal sense of self. Now, in terms of the period issue, I don't have much to say because I personally am not triggered by my period and don't mind having one (and in fact, I was relieved when my doctor said low dose testosterone shouldn't affect my fertility or stop my period). So not all "gendered" aspects of the "female experience" cause dysphoria for trans people. But ultimately, the main difference in our experiences is that I want to live as a different gender, so many experiences of being the "female gender" feel incongruous with who I am.

@@mandy3404 unless brainwashed, nobody likes to be treated as inferior. This is why women are so keen on gay men, they're rejected by society as well and they feel they can bond with them. The person in the video seems to view transgender as rejecting your gender role and transitioning into the other (which means you have to pass as the other sex and so undergo medical transition). The dysphoria is social and it comes solely from the expectations forced upon them for being female/male. By transitioning they're basically saying females are like this and males are like that, instead of fighting gender roles and their own pain brang by them. The difference between women and trans men (whether gnc or not) is simply physical dysphoria.

Thinking about it, Superman actually kinda does represent the struggles of men in comparison to other humans, of course with Superman being in comparison to men. Superman is stronger than everyone else, and knows the damage he can cause, and thus tries to contain himself and only use his advantages for good, all while feeling alien because of his physical traits. Sounds a lot like most men to me.

You should watch it, this is more an addendum because Natalie has a understanding from the mtf side of the gender spectrum Trans men is a side many transwomen get confused by but are accepting possibly because a trans man is a ftm so the changes of attitude during transition is similar but in the opposite direction. Not to say that's a bad thing at all in fact, transmen could teach cis males on what a man is the sense of power that transmen hold is a interesting opportunity to effectively rewrite what being a man is. I find this insight into the controversy most important. Contrapoints mo is to deradicalise those men whom are thinking of joining your local Nazi party and alt right brotherhoods they prey on a man's ability to infinitely question themselves and ask about their own identity. NB do make a situation more complex but a clear and consistent answer is possible in this noise in fact I have hope that it can slow down the fascist recruitment of dejected males who see their own existence as a "divine comedy" and life as a circus run by clowns with clowns and for clowns.

If you're competitive, it shows that you believe you and your partner to be evenly matched. If you weren't, you wouldn't be competing because one person would be hurt. The reason why men are competitive with each other is because they can do that without hurting each other. Men don't want to fight women because men know that they are stronger than women are. If that happens, the loser is seriously hurt, and from my personal experience men don't want the loser to be hurt-only to know that the winner has bested them.

I'd imagine if you were a guy you wouldn't call yourself cis.

@@user-no2oz5mh7x I'd imagine if you were an intelligent person you wouldn't have said... well, that entire comment, since literally nothing about your pathetic attempt at an insult has even a single brain cell's worth of intelligence in it. That's a freezer temp IQ take.

Both my responses went down? I was wrong you are definitely a cis prob the embodiment of a cissy. Best of luck dude, seriously. Lol "I'm a cis guy."

Neo Torchwick You actually managed to rub two brain cells together to come up with a response, I'd be impressed but the ability to comment doesn't mean you're intelligent. Here's hoping bmblb is canon. 😉

@@user-no2oz5mh7x Why is it that, every time you reply to my comments, it's less intelligent than your previous comment? I'm honestly kind of impressed.

I'm more into Batman than superman like I am more into metroid's samus Arran and link from the legend of Zelda These characters display a sense of power be it, capabilities in strength, divine wisdom or courageous valor with the drive to pushback a endless tidal wave of disaster You can be a police officer and take orders or be a masked vigilante fighting for justice heroism is not just a shade of paragon or a shade of rogue, you are a hero because you use your "power" to protect and uphold your responsibility. Also, add Spider-Man to the list.

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is he? really? gotta watch the rest of the video but wanted to look at the comments first and. I don't know. I'm a gay dude and superman kinds of nah for me.

@@rotciv1486 Zack Snyder kinda messed up his characterization, I guess. There he's saving people out of duty, but he like... Doesn't seem to like them very much. Clark Kent is usually perfect for stories you want to write about a perfect super human, both fiscally and morally. I think he's neat.

@@victorianeechan hmmm I. But he is not perfect. He is imperfect in that he is riddled with a superior complex due to his m the responsibility of how powers. The movies are bad, I think, because they wanted to be all gritty and that doesn't vibe with the whole "Ultimate boy scout" Ting

As a 25-year old cis woman, this analogy hit close to home. I've always compared birth to an alien chest-burster. It's friggin' terrifying :(

I’ve always likened them to each other

Thinking about it, Superman is a pretty good metaphor for men in general. Naturally stronger, feeling alien for his potential, trying his best to do good in any way he can, ashamed when he ends up hurting someone. Superman is just that way in comparison to men, while men are that way in comparison to the rest of humanity.

Zeta Zimmer Barnes Check out Low T Charlie!!

@@rob0tt4rmy thank youuuu

While I love the way this is written, unfortunately no, Batman's disguise is Bruce Wayne and the comics keep hammering that in again and again. He is super messed up and Batman is his true face. You can see for instance imgur.com/gallery/Ut7BD as example

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THANK UUUUUUUU FOR SAYING IT

Yeah I agree

Yeah but at the same time making a video about men and masculinity and only mentioning cis men makes it feel... Kind of incomplete? I guess that she could have at the very least acknowledged that (still a contra stan tho)

i don't think that's very reasonable bc she sometimes mentions the experience of POC to better explain some points/arguments. i get that she will never make one video specifically about trans men, but she could at least have mentioned queer masculinity in general, it would contribute to the conversation. so i'm glad somebody else responded with a very elucidative video contributing to that conversation with another perspective