In case it's not clear from the video, Thunder Ranch DOES want you to use the safety! If you show up to a class and give them the "this is my safety sir" line you might be asked (politely but firmly) to leave. The difference between what I'm used to and what TR teaches mostly boils down to the safety being disengaged one "step" sooner, and re-engaged one "step" later than I'm used to. I had a hard time fighting muscle memory to do it the TR way, which is why I wanted to talk about it in this video.

I imagine James flying into PDX, renting a convertible mini cooper and pulling up outside of Hops house unannounced blasting Mumford & Sons and yelling something like " get in queer, were going to Ram Ranch"

Hop was so positive because he was constantly surrounded by cute range cats.

Hop is the hero we need to tell us that it is okay to disagree with youtube's favorite people and brands.

“Safety always off” - Cyrus

A long time ago a wise man told me, take what works, leave what doesn't.

I think Hop coming out and saying he doesn't fully agree with certain training aspects is good for the community. A lot of tenured instructors who have spent decades in the game get very locked in on certain techniques (and I'm not saying the guys at TR are necessarily guilty of this or even wrong), so it's good to get some fresh young dudes like Hop in here to share some perspective. Especially because Hop comes from strictly a civilian background, he doesn't have some set-in military doctrine or department policy that causes him to think one way or the other.

Give it to Hop, he hates everything! More hates, less brown-nosing.

Most people find it useful to tell others about lessons learned. Hop finds it useful to tell others about lessons not learned.

He definitely learned that James can buy off/lawyer his way into anything

Hop is showing us his Chaotic nature by arguing with himself. Inside of you there are Two Wolves.

Grumpy Ben Steoger noises

Leaving the safety off safe is easier to go with if you have qualified immunity.

When you see Hop at the grocery store ask him if he's staying safe

5:55 "If you're working with buddies who are, like yourself, probably just self-taught amateurs, I think the safety should be on as much as possible" lol I totally agree, especially when you and your buddies are also self-taught amateur bleed stoppers

Actually, I find the "Switch to enable when shooting and leave it until fight is over." to be more confusing and have higher probablity of mistakes when scenario gets complicated. With "Switch enable when shooting. Disable when not shooting.", it is a simple rule. Always constant. With "Leave it until the fight is over." there are so many exceptions that causes confusion. "Except when jumping over fences." "Except when you have to sprint." "Except when the lull is too long." "Except when you need to fiddle with some equipment." "Except this... blah blah." "Except that.... blah blah." This ends up being "Flick when you get the gun up, some times, but no some other times.", "Flick down sometimes, but not some other times." which makes me constantly think about flicking the lever far more than I want to be occupied with it. Ambidextrous selecter lever is a must for me. Whatever criticism against it did not make it worth giving up capability to immediately fire left or right hand.

I can confirm Thunder Ranch is fantastic, enjoyed every second of being there. Clint and Heidi are superb hosts and instructors.

Today I learned that Hop and I agree on more things than I thought.

I think consistency of control parts between your ARs-assuming you have more than one (and who doesn’t?)-is more important than any particular type or style of control parts. That way, the training and muscle memory remain the same for all of your ARs.

I was hoping the video was "what they dont teach you at Thunder Ranch", so we could also watch James do "what they do teach you at Thunder Ranch" and with 2 videos we would have the total sumational of all knowledge.

Remember, the first rule of gun safety is to have fun.

“Aim point T2 and a big beefy mount” is what my wife used to say when I took my pants off.

Hop and Clint Smith in the same room. That's the kind of ire this world needs.

Cop/ SWAT perspective on the safety thing: Unless you are actively firing at a target, the safety is on, always. You never know if whats going to pop out in front of you is a hostile or a hostage or an innocent bystander until you've taken the millisecond necessary to identify it. And in a situation with that much liability, it's actually better to give up that millisecond of response time than to punch a round through someone that didn't deserve it. Different places may train differently based on their own ROE, but in general I would agree with Hop in that the extra level of safety is preferred.

Hop getting irritated from the comments even before the comments appear is entertaining indeed.

13:17 Selector awareness issues are magnified on military rifles. The first time I had a live fire shoot with our new C7A2s (which has a truncated ambi fire selector) I was alarmed to find my carefully aimed single shot at 100m turned into a 3-round burst. My very high and tight grip brought the top of my hand into contact with the bottom of the selector, and the recoil of a previous shot nudged it perhaps 20 degrees off of the vertical "repetition" position - this was apparently enough to put the rifle into automatic. Thankfully, I was in a very solid prone position so my muzzle didn't move significantly enough to alert the nearby Warrant Officer. Once you know about it, you can mitigate it, but you might only discover it the hard way.

RamRanch Reference

GET THIS CAT OUT OF MY WORKSPACE I'M TRYING TO DO SAFETY MANIPULATIONS OVER HERE

The safety thing is a doctrine thing, clint is a marine from the Vietnam era in his own words " I think more people died because of that safety more than anything" his reference is conscripted drafties who had a little to almost no time to learn. Pat is a delta guy who was the pioneer in delta training and modernization in som aspects the level in military career and time in combat and knowledge of the body and brain l. Thats the main difference in thier doctrines also clint teaches from the civilian minded angle where pat bridges the civilian and military mindset for effectiveness in the fight. Geest video

I didn't think I needed backup iron sights until an unusual range day. It was a particularly hot and humid day (even for Missouri) but my rifle spent the drive inside my air conditioned car. When I first pulled it out at the range it immediately became covered in condensation. I couldn't see through my red dot at all. I could wipe it off but it would become occluded again almost instantly. It took more than 10 minutes for the optic to warm up enough to stop doing that. It occurred to me afterward that an optic that has been outside on a cold day that is then brought into a warm building could have the same problem, just ask anyone who wears glasses. Also, bringing my rifle out of my air conditioned home on a similarly hot and humid day could also be just as useless. So now I have OFFSET irons just in case I encounter a similar situation.

One of my friends is a firearms instructor for the military and LE community, and flat out won't work with anyone who doesn't abide by safety on until on target method. His logic is: if you are moving around a team, behind barricades and under stress, it's imperative to, you know, not ND into your buddy's leg because your chambered rifle snags his radio antenna or whatever. All of my hero friends argue with me about it all the time, that [wiggles finger] "this is my safety", but I am going to keep doing it the Hop way- safety on until on target.

I'm glad you enjoyed your time at TR. They have a great corriculum, but are flexible. When I did the AK course they let me keepwith what I knew for reloads (from CENTER-T) just gave me some playful teasing the whole time.

I dig the A2 carbine, and the kitty (obviously)

We know who isn't getting a Christmas card from thunder Ranch this year.

I totally agree with the safety stuff running around with safety off is great way to have an AD.

Hop, surely my local instructor that retired after 10 years with the state police would never steer me wrong, right?

1. I prefer your method too, as it's similar to what I learned in the Army. Though in Thunder Ranch's defense, that was when Reagan was in office so they may still be right. That said, I'm pretty sure anyone well trained/practiced on either method will have zero NDs over their lifetime due to those practices. 2. As my NCOs used to say, "One is none; Two is one." That is to say it's always best to have a second option/spare. Saying "my X is bullet proof so I don't need a backup, spare, etc" is just _daring_ Murphy to come out of hide and mess with you in some crazy, unanticipated way. 3. I don't have a rifle with any ambidextrous controls. So even I wouldn't respect my own opinion on them.

"Oh hail no" to one thing you said: Law Enforcement having a "prepped trigger" has resulted in multiple documented cases of innocent people getting shot and killed (one I recall in NYC was merely in the trigger guard where a cop was spooked). The reason for having the finger off the trigger entirely is specifically because in a chaotic setting with a lllooooooonnnnggg list of possible things to surprise you, you're far more likely to end up shooting in error than you are to react to a baddie with ungodly speed.

Black cats are my favorite, always so affectionate, vocal, and just over all sweet.

Stephen King is finally back for some more tactical roleplaying action

As Chuck Pressburg will gladly tell anyone: you can outrun your headlights and end up taking a shot that you were in no way justified taking. Having the safety on an extra microsecond won't get you killed but it might keep you from accidentally shooting someone who doesn't need to get shot.

Safety stays on by default and the finger stays out of the trigger guard. Finger goes onto the trigger and thumb snaps down the safety at the same time. Finger comes off the trigger and you can put the safety back on as you remove the finger from the trigger guard or lower the rifle.

Hop is a gunsmith cat. (=^ェ^=)

That tiger stripe on the mag looks insanely good.

Very much so my same mindset on the safety. Safe until on target just makes the most sense on a weapon system as ergonomic as the AR. It feels like they were trying to teach Kalashnikov weapon manipulation? It works, that's fine, I prefer modern techniques that are safer and still plenty effective so long as you have a working thumb. I understand the desire for a backup sighting system but honestly any of them should do. If you have spare batteries for a durable optic like an Eotech that's enough. If you have irons with an optic that's enough. If you have a second sighting system not using the same mount, like an 45 degree offset red dot, that's enough too. Ambi bolt locks are something I really like having. I've never had a mistaken manipulation with that because I'm one of those weirdo's that have B.A.D. levers on all my rifles. I primarily use it for locking the bolt back and also use it to drop the bolt, however I 'sweep' my index finger up or down for that effect instead of pushing inwards. I chose to make this a habit years ago when I used to watch InRangeTV and Karl discussed people in competitions negligently discharging rounds down range when they meant to manipulate the lever with an inward squeeze of the finger into the trigger guard. I don't watch InRange anymore but that lesson I kept with me. Ambi mag releases are a waste of time if you have two working hands and aren't a cripple (sorry Brass Facts.) Appreciate your insights on these elements. It definitely looks like Thunder Ranch would be an awesome place to train. Nothing wrong with learning useful lessons and choosing when something just doesn't vibe with your reality.

Range kitty is a cute, cuddly little monster.

900.00 to be told your rifle is wrong. I applaud you for holding onto your own views and applying lessons where they had benefit however, I come here to listen to you ramble like a crazy person is the highlight of the show.

Bro, you won the TFB rifle contest. James is a slimey lawyer.

Ironic that the dude criticized no back up oron sights as a " just in case" but thinks ambi controls are dumb. " I'm right handed" Sure, until you aren't. Is it a likely scenario? About as likely as getting into a gunfight as a civilian in the first place. So where do we draw the line for "realistic" vs "necessary"?

Says a lot about you that you're willing to come out and publicly, but kindly, disagree with people who have much more experience (and probably clout) than you do because you believe in your own opinions and experience. So many men aren't stubborn enough. You're a class act and my favorite firearms content creator Hop.

Which Thunder Ranch cat was your favorite?

Hop, I couldn’t agree more on the safety. I trained with a particular group of guys for about 2.5 years before we had to move. We trained weekly and became very proficient up to live fire shoot house drills in gas masks or night vision. Given that with most modern firearms you can either pull the safety and then the trigger, or the trigger and then the safety, you can engage both at the same time and not worry about the thousandths of a second on which actually came first. There’s no reason other than complacency in my book to ever not engage the safety on/off only when you’re actively shooting. Once you’re used to it and it’s muscle memory, there’s zero issue. And for anyone reading this, if you disagree, ask yourself which group you’d be happier with your daughters or sons go train with in a live fire drill. Then once you realize your argument is weak, go work that safety in some simple up/down drills.

#1 - Totally agree - if the hammer is cocked, safety on. #2 - totally agree. I can’t see up close without my glasses. #3 - I took the left side mag release off my M400, 90 degree safety only but like ambidextrous safety.

I'm glad the gun community isn't an echo chamber, but i also hate that a decent majority will be harsh just because someone doesn't agree with what they perceive a higher authority (its the internet though). You also provided great alternative teachers as examples. Pat Mac is a great guy and local to me and have had a few chat at a bar or 2. Sometimes, information is outdated. Had a guy that worked with me have firearm knowledge just kind of stop in the 90s and would carry a beretta 92 or a few different revolvers in a crossdraw and was weirded out by us new age guys.

"Grow the fuck up!" LMFAO!!!😂😂😂 Workspace! HaHa!!!😂🤣😂🤣😂

When I saw him say your rifle should have backup iron sights, I was just like WHERE?

I'm with hop on the safety thing. I've been to a few classes and I've experienced some of these dogmatic instructors. It can be disconcerting because you've been training a certain way for years and then you have an instructor potentially making you feel like an idiot because you don't do things exactly their way immediately.

Yes, when you train with other next to you having that safety on as much as possible is a good thing.

Great video Hop. I'm a 62 year old who was taught his technics in 1979, Army training Sir! Last year I attended a 2 day Apple Seed class. Went in with an open mind and had a great time. Learned good shooting skills with all age groups, and got really good History lessons too. I do not like the Hasty Sling technic they taught, but stuck with it both days.

Thank you Hop. Thunder Ranch is one of the schools in my top 3 list that I want to attend. With any luck I'll be able to go next year some time. God bless! Be safe! 🤙🪖👮🙏🇺🇲

That cat be yelling.

I like the GG&G light mount. Just about the best way to run a light on a rifle with an A2 front post.

I agree with Hop , saftey ON at all times until your on target ! and I do like the 45° thumb On at all times, Not braking grip . I'd probably get a minis for mag catch extension , it's so much easier for my finger to find , it's exactly where I need it to be, I don't have to stretch and hunt for it. No bad lever .

As a GWOT era know it all, I can definitively say that you are right about the safety. Not every scenario is a felony stop or a 1970s stand off with Hawaiian 5.0, the GWOT taught us that your weapon is on safe until you are ready to fire and back on safe if you are not firing, and that's how you need to live your life....

Similar thoughts have been going through my head since seeing that video. I used to use my safety the TR way, "if I'm fighting, I should just keep the safety off and do the Blackhawk Down thing," right up until I saw a vid of Pat Mac doing a shoot house where you could very clearly hear the constant clicking of the safety. Convinced me to look into it, and between him and a Shepdev video on safety use not delaying your first shot time, I now keep the safety on just about all the time. It also factors into my use of short throw safeties. It doesn't really matter for taking the weapon off safe, but putting it back on is a lot easier to do with my index finger knuckle with a short throw than with the GI on my work piece, where I have a (much less exaggerated) break in my grip.

i agree. my safety stays on until i'm on target and gets immediately flipped back to safe just after the last round gets sent. i think it's important to do extra when it comes to safety just so you have more safety engrained. it's better to have.. extra safety steps you can cut down on if that makes sense. the range is where i drill in these practices. so if anything ever does happen, it's already instilled in me to be as safe as possible if you're all loosey with safety, and shit hits the fan, you're much more likely to hit a friendly when adrenaline is pumping

Agreed that eotech needs to come into the 21st century by adding the "shake awake" feature to their optics.

Ambi selectors are also now standard issued on the M4A1, so people can't argue it's not true milspec these days.

Cant wait for the h&r review

That little one was quite the talker!

Safety is number one: cameraman proceeds to walk around barrier to get a shot of Hop firing from the front.

Hop is the best gun-related content out there. "That's just the kind of guy I am this week." No, Hop. That's just the kind of guy you are.

Hop & Brass Facts: Owners and CEOs of Haley Dynamics and Sage Strategic but it isn't complete without Jack Daniel as the RO.

The iron sights thing .... why not just show up with a C-note? I've done a lot of training for, and with LE, and yea, those MFs never maintain their gear, their weapons are always dirty, and the optics batteries are always dead. At the same time, a lot of the military world involves trying to get 90iq recruits who have never been around firearms to not shoot themselves or each other. These groups all tend to have a very specific culture when it comes to firearms, that are often at odds with what most people would consider normal.

100% with you on safety usage. I think it was Pannone who advocated for engaging the safety as soon as the cheek comes off the stock because that allows for consistency in usage of the safety. If one tries to remember to place the safety on at some arbitrary later time (e.g. before moving), the loss of consistency means one is more likely to fail to engage the safety. (Yes, I know the gun won't go on safe if there's a malfunction which results in the hammer being forward.)

Honestly, you could do an hour long video just reviewing the various cats you met while at Thunder Ranch and I would be riveted.

Not stubborn, smart!

1st one is surprising. Many millennials that I know that are into guns use the On Target, On Trigger, Off Target, Off Trigger method and use the safety when they aren't planning on shooting. In a team training environment, having to shoot around others with live ammo, I get using the safety

Iron sights are a must. Personally and professionally I have seen and experienced broken optics,mounts, dead batteries, out of zero optics and all other manner of failures. Safety- on while moving or w a hot rifle unless actively engaging targets. Ambitious, exotic, bang-blinged out rifles just add weight and more points of failures. Keep a business rifle simple- sling, light, good optics. - 30 yrs in LE and all the FI stuff etc.

Always love a sunstroke induced rambling rant vid from Hop, more please.

I’m right handed, and ever since getting my first ambi-safety, I started using putting the right/trigger finger-side lever up and forward (as opposed to having it mirror the down/back of the safety on my thumb side). To me this is way more ergonomic, including: - Easier to flip on by pressing forward with my right index finger than up with my left thumb - Safer; eg if I’m actuating the safety on with my trigger finger, then by definition it’s also not on the trigger finger Literally the only excuse I’ve heard “recommended against that” is people saying “because [fill in the blank name] said so once.” Umm… ok. Once you have a legitimate reason based in logic and facts, then maybe I’ll listen. Otherwise try to think for yourself.

As soon as James paid his way to victory, I was waiting for this video. “Iron deez nutz”

Hop may be an expert in the field of building a fighting carbine, but James is an expert in the field of persuading judges, proving once again that it doesn’t matter how right you are - what matters is how good your lawyer is. That said, I like iron sights being available. But everyone knows that Hop had the best gun. And I’ll submit that a laser IS a backup sight, even if it isn’t ideal.

I worked at a shooting range from 2002-06 and I absolutely developed a way of doing and saying things that just seemed to work the best for the greatest number of customers. Some people might have been better served with a different approach though. When you have to keep things moving smoothly you just get into your groove and keep doing things that give good results most of the time.

was once part of the great field exercises of my mom's basement during 2020. Months of staying in the field without a shower, only MRE's and my rifle to keep me company. My Amazon red dot that had thousands of 5 star reviews died in the first week of the exercises. Good thing I had my Magpul plastic backup sight on there right out of the box. Didn't even need to zero it since it was on there from the manufacturer! If this is you, please go check your iron sights

Old #7 Jack Daniel(s) is never wrong

Not for nothing, but I’ve broken far more back up irons than Eotech’s and Aimpoints in a decade of military service, so I’m with you. I understand the applications are completely different. In terms of pure reliability though, I trust my modern Eotech more than back irons. But also we’re largely talking about something additionally bolted to the top of the receiver/rail and not integrated like a A2 style handle and front post.

The concept of always putting the safety on when off target is similar to the concept of the Swiss Cheese model. It's one extra barrier in addition to the basic rules of gun safety in between you and an ND/AD. Even if one or two layers of that safety net are "breached" due to negligence, necessity, or the nature of the engagement, there are more layers to catch you before that ND/AD occurs. Safety on while not on target is a rule I enforce when shooting with my buddies because moving and shooting can be unpredictable. People trip or slip sometimes and if they go down with their finger on the trigger, safety on saves the day.

The number of negligent discharge injuries/deaths in the military, particularly in combat zones is insanely high and we will never know the true extant of it as the military goes to great lengths to hide it, but it is very high.

17:02 It's funny. Black cats seem to be the friendliest and most personable. And talkers. I'm not a big cat guy, but black cats are usually cool.

Well said. I appreciate that you did *learn* the stuff but made a conscious decision to not use it in your personal life. Too often see people throw things from classes away without a second thought.

I put off putting BUI on my main rifle for a long time because I had very little real estate with the switches and light and LAM. Eventually ended up tweaking things around and got a folding back sight and fixed front squeezed in there. Many rifles, particularly ones set up for night fighting don't have the space for the classic set of folding BUI, but there's some workarounds like the Leaf sights for DBAL, etc. Never had an issue with needing it before, but good to have the option of course.

Car at 17:01

Ehhhhh... idk chief, even in a law enforcement context, I'm not sure why you'd ever WANT to be on the trigger without an immediate need. It takes one time of messing up to completely ruin lives, and that is very easy in civilian related high stress scenarios with under funded and under trained LEO.

Good stuff Hop! There isn't "A way". Learn from others, be appreciative of the knowledge and experience they have and their ability to relay it to you well, keep what is useful to you and keep learning.

Safeties exist for your safety and the safety of those around you. Stay safe.

Hop made this because his rifle lost in the "whose best" at Thunder Ranch lmfao Still love this, you, and your content, Hop. You're the KING!

I like how you do the safety on and off. Keep doing what works for you and I do the same. Good video Hop.

I can appreciate HOP's perspective. I was a Marine Corps weapons instructor (PMI). Based on what Hop shared, I can see his point of view. There are 4 weapon handling/safety rules Marines abide by. The No. 4 rule goes inline with the No. 2 rule: 2. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. 4. KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE. Based on what's ingrained with my own experience as both a Marine and a firearms instructor of Marines. I've pounded that principle into my Marines for years. So, if I am not pointing my weapon at something I have no intention of shooting, my weapon is on safe. It's interesting TR went a different route, considering Clint is also a Marine. However, I am open minded and may explore things. But, those Marine Corps gun safety rules are a lynchpin of my own sense of safe control and manipulation. I may practice what Hop stated TR is training these days. EDIT: I should also add, I was a also Military Police, and we did not train with firearms differently based on being SRT (Special Reaction Team) at least when I was in as I got out in 2004. Things may certainly have changed by now based the SWAT/Police example Hop mentions.

Are range cats a thing at Thunder Ranch? If so, getting my wife to come with me to a course will be a much easier sell.