The Austrian team also came together under questionable circumstances because the team captain is in Vorarlberg, the westernmost state of Austria (7 hours' drive to Vienna) and did not ask the other tournament teams/play groups from other federal states if we would play. Instead, he asked Swiss and Germans players. The Mount Doom ( Arlberg) stood in the way of communication, but that is something we still need to resolve internally for next year. And therefore, the claim that it is Meta-gaming is also very questionable because, due to their geographical position, they in Vorarlberg are very much aligned with the German & Swiss meta.

Great recap guys - From my understanding both Matt and Evan are playing the Ardacon Masters this year, are you planning on doing a preview episode for this year's Ardacon?

Hi guys, Thanks for the pod - great as ever! Your list review got me thinking. If you’ve done this in the past, please ignore or direct me there! I’ve been looking at knights of Dol Amroth as I got hold of some old metal ones. The discussion point is, what are the best/worst troop options in terms of points efficiency, and which are most over and undercosted. When I look at those knights, I want to paint them up for the hobby and nostalgia. However, at 11 points each, they feel pretty badly costed compared to Black Nums, Elves… I know there are other troops that are very well-costed/efficient and others that aren’t. I’m mostly interested in the overcosted ones to see you maybe discuss or rank which are the worst offenders! Just an idea I had. Thanks

Finally getting to this episode - so happy you guys have a new pod! Theoretically, Radagast doesn't need Strike because a F7 mount and Immobilize will give him a higher FV than most foes. If Radagast had a free Will point each turn from his staff while on the eagle, this would totally work - but because he doesn't have the staff, this option is on a timer. He's almost better on foot or a horse with a friend to do the work (like Gwaihir or any number of Dwarf heroes).

Next time I play Rivendell I am going to try out Gwahir allied in as losing the Riv army bonus doesn’t feel like a huge loss. I’ve never used a monster before so thanks for the interesting podcast!

I hate to be a bother, but did you have to purchase 2 boxes of each infantry for Thror?

Thanks for reviewing my list guys! I have played a couple of games with that setup and found it quite fun but I absolutely struggle with terror. I will take some of your suggestions here and keep tweaking it!

Matt I remember your game at our NJ event against triple great beast, classic!

Just food for thought, based on the this episode and the last one about the meta. Do you suspect that the meta has become boring because of the advice people are taking from competitive podcasts? Not to be an attack on you guys, you do a great job, however just about every unique style list that is reviewed ends up just getting told to take the same old meta picks. WK + sully or black nums backed by morranon orcs and so forth. Just thought worth saying, but I do love the pod and the insights

Thanks for keeping these going!

Let's go!

Are you guys coming back for this year?

hi, i hope someone can answer this. at 5:19 you show the goblin warriors with bows, do these come on the sprue or is it kitbashed?

1:43:43 in the hobbit book Bard is a captain of the guard and led his archers in the fight against Smaug. Also thank you for the Thror breakdown it's my first army I chose to play and honestly the army I like the most, just I have a custom lore with them being dwarves who stayed in the grey mountains. (Obviously thror and thrain have been renaimed)

To keep players on their toes what if you changed the points limit each round? I’m thinking you have a pool of point values for each round and roll for which one to use. Of course you will have to have players send in the list they will play for each points value.

just posting for any other latecomers, they got it a bit wrong when discussing the dwarf list at the start. dwarf ballista are small siege engines, so you only need one crew to fire it. and throwing axes on dwarf kings are very much worth taking.

Hoping you guys are going to clash on the coast this year with 70 slots that are filling up for the GT quickly

Guess I'll shoot my two cents down here in the comments since I wasn't able to make it to this recording (this is Alisher by the way). To answer the broader question of "has the META stagnated" the answer is unequivocally yes. As a person who goes to a lot of tournaments, I see the same things over and over again The questions after that are A, is this a problem and B, can anything be done about it (in absence of getting a new supplement which obviously we will be soon). I do not necessarily think that META stagnation at tournaments is a bad thing. I personally do not like playing against the same thing over and over again at events (I faced four Last alliance themed/structured lists and two azogs legion lists at adepticon) but there's nothing overtly wrong with this. If tournaments are a place where people want to compete, then I cant fault people for doing that. My experience at Adepticon also proved that "META" lists do not translate to tournament wins one for one. I think the real underlying element, which Matt touches on really well, is that for many people tournaments are the only place where they are getting games in. Like Matt I routinely change what I play in practice games and at small local tournaments because otherwise the game would become boring. I also make a deliberate point of getting these types of game days/events on my hobby schedule to ensure that I am having fun with the game. On another broader note, I honestly prefer the current state of this META than others before it. Elite armies, that focus on resistance to magic, fight value, courage, shooting, etc... have really pushed the heavy magic/angmar armies out of reliable top table contention. I cant speak for others, but I prefer grinding out games than experience the demoralisation of my heroes getting permanently locked up/killed (though of course there's nothing wrong with taking magic heavy armies). To answer the question of "can anything be done about it?" of course the answer is yes- play different things and stop worrying about winning all the time. The more I play this game, the more I am driven by playing good, competitive games that rely on strategic thinking then always getting the win.

Regarding your main topic, setting up the tournament and adding extra perks seems like a viable option. A friend of mine for example organized a tournament and based on the current meta/nr. Of tournament certain factions&LL win we had something like a list of 7 levels of competitiveness, where you would get a small amount of bonus points at the end of all games if you play a less favoured type or army. Another thing I thought would be super fun, is a doubles tournament of 600-800p, where you and your mate can elect one hero upto 99p to be your main hero. Essentially, you have something going on like the Shagrat-Gorbag rivalry where the one with less kills get an extra re-roll in duels. But you can even extend this by doing things like little random missions that you need to do with your selected hero in the game, which brings you points in end of all games. People can have fun with the heroes they really like and its only up to mid-tier heroes to not make a i.e. Thorin, King of Erebor even stronger. A next level could be even (but thats probably to complex to add, rather keep this in a seperate tournament idea) adding something like the Bolg-kill streak idea in a light version to your selected hero (like re-roll 1s, terror, or similar but nothing crazy like mighty hero). Also only for heroes upto 99p and then have 3 categories like heroes upto 59p start already with a simulated kill count of 2 (so at first bonues already i.e. re-rolling 1s) and stronger mid tier heroes of 80-99p start with a kill count of -2, to even that out a little bit.

Hey guys! Thanks a lot for the review, its very much appreciated 💪 especially the little shoutout in the transition from your main topic to a list you wouldn't see at every tournament 😄 I still have time to change the list, but I don't think I will, at least not essentially:) I will tell you though how it went and if I made any last minute changes, until then, keep up the good work😎

I agree with Matt’s point. “Traditional” armies of shield lines and cavalry and archers aren’t boring. I find them fun. If you find it boring to play against strategic armies in a strategy game maybe you need to find a new game that you might enjoy?

As Mik’s opponent in the final game at the little event he mentioned where took the fun Mordor list i can agree that these sorts of lists really make it interesting. Both for the player and the opponent. We had a great game that came down to the final dice roll which not only determined the game but also the event winner I believe. I do find these smaller non gbhl type events attract more varied, less ‘meta’ lists and sometimes that just means worse but sometimes also throws in a curve ball to figure out that you didn’t plan for. It is difficult though as lots of people do have more fun when they win a few games than when they lose them all so they tend to want to take stronger lists and then that just escalates.. There is definitely a saturation of over efficient models which lead to too many similar lists as it becomes hard to justify bringing the obviously worse option.

So I tend to lean towards Matts POV.... Here is what I've seen and experienced, I've top tabled and podiumed at 7 of my last 12 tournaments and I've taken both "meta" lists, AND funky combo lists and done equally good and bad with them. There is a blunt reality and maybe this is harsh but more often than not the competitive players play and often sink into the "I have to play top table in order to have a competitive game", mindset. I consider myself to be a competitive player and I have had upsets happen, and as a competitor, I LOVE THAT. if I am winning ALL OF THE TIME, the game will absolutely get stale. Id say in regards to meta stagnation, its really up to the players to fix meta, I play wacky lists all of the time and have been able to find ways to beat "meta" lists... Again to be blunt I think that in and of itself finding a way with something less than ideal is what makes a player, "good" at this game. id rather a challenge than a breeze through.... I don't think we need meta lists in order to top table. This is just my thoughts for what they are worth but this is where I sit.

Simply, yes.

I’m happy you said what you said Matt. Always been of a fan of running more of a historical army with mid tier heroes and have positioning and warriors doing the work. And how do you guys few about nova being 1k and only being two and a half hours what do you guys think will be brought and do you think most people will rely too much on shooting

It has stagnated as a consequence of the introduction of LL’s and an increasingly restrictive alliance matrix. Wheter by design or chance GW has shoehorned the listbuilding into an increasingly more unified meta. Well Im doing this next; any comments? Warband 1 6/15 Eorl the Young (LEADER) 2 Rohan Outrider with Horse; 4 Son of Eorl ---- Warband 2 10/12 Erkenbrand, Captain of Rohan with Horse; 6 Helminga with Throwing Spears; Shield; Axe 4 Rohan Royal Guard with Throwing Spears; ---- Warband 3 10/12 Elfhelm, Captain of Rohan with Horse; 4 Rohan Royal Guard with Throwing Spears; 6 Rohan Outrider(Walker) ---- Warband 4 12/12 Grimbold of Grimslade 5 Helminga with Throwing Spears; Shield; Axe 1 Helminga with Banner; Shield; Axe 6 Rohan Royal Guard with Throwing Spears; ---- 800/42

I think the meta has stagnated a bit but I've seen a lot of players purposely avoiding the "meta" lists for that reason. Locally we have a couple of players who specifically don't bring their Dragon Emperor anymore to avoid being a boring game. I have been trying to purposely find some off the beaten path lists that may not win events but provide a change of pace while still being good. Currently I am workshopping this and would love some feedback: 650 points | 35 models Mordor, The Easterlings Gothmog, Lieutenant of Sauron: Warg, Shield (145) 11x Morannon Orc: Shield (88) 4x Orc Tracker (20) Rutabi, General of the Dragon Legion: (110) 1x Easterling Warrior: Banner, Pike, Shield (34) 12x Easterling Warrior: Pike, Shield, Black Dragons (132) 1x Easterling Warrior: Bow (8) Easterling Dragon Knight: (65) 3x Easterling Kataphrakt: Black Dragons (48) The idea is to have double master of battle with a tough D6 battle line that cannot be shifted easily. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Short Answer: Yes. The game is horrifically stale at the moment. Defence of the North really did a number on the Meta

Horses are usually 5pts . . . unless you're Citadel Guards or Rangers of the North (who I get are heroes, but Beregond is basically the same and doesn't have to pay that much). #JusticeForCitadelGuards

Ancient video but I am intrigued with that rangers shire gwaihir list. What would the function of a handful of dunedain be?

Matt (or whoever) - I love your 1,000 list. How would you condense it to 800?

Hey! I'm on friendly tournament in May, 625p, one army (so also goog vs good), 3 games and random scenarios. I thought about starting a new Khazad Dum/Moria project, with an Iron Guard heavy list. Please review/comment, here we go! Balin 7 Iron Guards 2 Khazad Guards 5 Dwarf Warriors bow 1 Dwarf Ranger bow, throwing axe Kings Champ 2 Herolds 5 Iron Guards 2 Khazad Guards 2 Dwarf Warriors bow 1 Dwarf Ranger bow, throwing axe Dwarf Ballista, one extra crew member 625 Points, 32 Models, 5+1 Might 9 bows + Ballista, 14 throwing axes My rationale was just to spam out a bit some killy Iron Guards and keep D6 as a baseline with the rest being mainly Dwarf Warriors with bow. Some Khazad Guards for tanking S4 Heros or Terror models for a turn or two and standing on objectives. Dwarf Rangers to climb stuff and shoot things. Ballista is supposed to keep me save from shooty armies, especially so cross bows or S2 bows spam like harad wouldn't shoot off my 15p units. Ideally, if my opponent runs towards me, even use that might of the Ballista captn for a heroic move, as the other might in this list is better to use for different things. Play conservatively with Balin, try to drain a heroic move here n' there from my opponent with his longbeard special rule and keep him alive to leverage it in lategame when both are low on might as well. Bad match-ups would be D7 armies I guess, as I also could come up against good armies. Magic would be unpleasant but I hope it wont be too prevelant at that point level. Cheers!

Having played Mahud Raiders a couple of years ago in battle companies, and then again more recently in standard scenarios, I'm not sure this review fully appreciates the potential hitting power of mass camels (10+ warriors, plus 2 heroes). It's not always possible to get all of them into combat in a single turn (they are cavalry, after all). But I have found that on turns when I can, it is not unusual to take out 8-12 models in a single turn on the charge. Yes, the odds are that they'll fail to wound every time (and typically need a 5+ to wound most standard battle lines). But there's always at least a few that wound 2-3 models in a single charge (and there is always a round where one of them gets to 5+ wounds). And statistical models have a hard time capturing just how devastating that is. The other thing that has stood out to me in recent playing is that while their F3 is a problem, they still have a decent chance of winning fights if the dice are roughly even (roughly a 40% chance in a 2-dice vs. 2-dice scenario). But when they win, they have a _substantial_ chance of killing whatever they're fighting, as long as it's D8 or below (4 dice needing a 5+ vs D7 or 8, or more commonly, 4 dice needing a 4+ vs D5-6). So the 40% chance of winning a fight is also essentially a 40% chance of killing whatever you're fighting, which is pretty good for a basic warrior. Add in the blow pipes with a 3+ shoot value, their 10" movement, and the possibility of the impact hits on the way in, and I'm not sure there's a more potent killing profile in the game at under 20 points. My two cents. :) Appreciate the discussion, as always!

Welcome back! How do you guys feel about nova being at 1000 points? What do you think the meta will be at 1k? ( I know you can bring so much). Never played that high of points and I’m between Isengard pure or a Minas Tirith/Fiefdoms alliance (with Gandalf the white)

Can anyone prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Raineer is not, in fact, Carmen Sandiego?

4:28 The same question ("Does Fortify Spirit also affect a model's mount?") was actually also answered ("Yes.") in the FAQs of the older rulebook (Gandalf cover).

Missed you guys

The best SBG podcast out here is back!

In the beginning someone talks about pure Moria is what they would go for, if going competitive Moria. Just wondering what that would look like?

Hi! As always, love the podcast. With NOVA announcing 1000pts this year, I've been experimenting with 1000pt lists (not a points level I usually play). Please take a look and let me know what you think! My initial thoughts are I want to keep my opponent guessing as to what my army is doing, and comboing the Watcher with some Goblin Mercenaries seems like the way to go. I have 3 Bat Swarms because they are generally a beacon for where the Watcher may pop up, and with 3 I can keep my opponent guessing while also threatening objectives. Goblin King 130 17 Goblin Warriors 68 Gollum 35pts Goblin Mercenary Captain 50pts 10 Goblin Mercenaries 50pts Goblin Mercenary Captain 50pts 10 Goblin Mercenaries 50pts Goblin Mercenary Captain 50pts 10 Goblin Mercenaries 50pts Goblin Scribe 50pts 6 Goblin Warriors 24pts Watcher in the Water 200pts Durburz 70pts 2 Goblins w/shield 10pts 1 Goblin w/spear 5pts 3 Bat Swarms 105pts

I know he's rarely spoken highly of but The Dark Marshall is one of my absolute favorite units in the game lol. Instill Fear on 4+ and 6" banner is just fantastic. Put him on the fell beast or even a horse and just having him be this 6" bubble that sits directly behind your lines giving buffs and pushing models away with Instill Fear. He could be better, I fully agree and admit he's my pet unit that even when he flubs in a game I still love, but man...he's done so good for me.

ok we've had the Pita of Dul-Guldur, but what about the Kebab of Dol-Guldur?

It doesn't have a bomb, but I knocked up a Vanilla Isengard list because I think they have some promising tools in this matchup. Isengard 650pts Saruman the White w/Horse - 190 Grima Wormtongue w/Horse - 35 9 Uruk-Hai w/Crossbows - 99 8 Orcs w/Spear - 48 Gorulf Ironskin - 70 4 Uruk-Hai Berserkers - 60 6 Orcs w/Spear - 36 2 Uruk-Hai w/Pike and 1 Banner - 45 Frida Tallspear - 65 33 Models, 9 Might, 9 Crossbows Early Game: The crossbows kill as many as possible (as with Rainier's list). On the approach, the hope is that Azog will have a Catch-22. Either he hides behind his troops to avoid shooting and risks Saruman blasting an Orc into him for the dismount, or he has to risk shooting to avoid that possibility. Might spent by the Captains for Marches is also helpful. Mid Game: Even if Azog is in perfect health and mounted, he's not out of the woods yet. Even with effectively 4 Will and Resistant to Magic, getting Blasted remains a very real threat, and if he avoids that he can still get stymied by Frida being able to neuter his charge bonus. I avoided pikes both for points and to make it easier for spearmen to swap out for Frida depending on where Azog goes. Grima makes calling Moves difficult, since Pits has no tools to remove him, which combined with 9 Might means I'll win the war of attrition within a few turns. For the troop fight, F4 S4 Crossbows backed up by spears should do reasonably well against Hunter Orcs and Gundabads. This will go poorly in the long run as the front rank dies and F3 D4 Orc spears are left, but Uruk-Hai berserkers, Gorulf, and spears with banner support should chew through Pits like butter. Azog might see this as tempting, but even if he's intact he's risking a lot challenging Gorulf. Either Gorulf plays it safe, calls Defense, and has Frida save his bacon or he commits to a Strike-off and forces Azog to burn 2 Might thanks to Grima, with Saruman attempting to Immobilize Azog. Late Game: Surprise attack is a powerful tool, but between the Palantir and (effectively) greater Might reserves thanks to Grima I should be able to move first for most of the late game. I lack cavalry or crebain, so Saruman is my go-to here for moving around and dealing with potential objectives that Pits controls. Once Pits is out of Might, Grima will be able to assist in this effort. Breaking doesn't concern me terribly, as Terrifying Aura makes Saruman unlikely to be charged, his Stand Fast is fantastic, and as long as I can break Pits they'll melt. Either Azog is dead or I Immobilize him with Saruman at some stage, turning off his Stand Fast and letting C2/C3 take its toll. Still some Scenarios that are shakey. Heirlooms/Seize the Prize against with 3 Fell Wargs while lacking March is rough, and Reconnoitre/Storm the Camp are gonna be rough preventing/trying to score primary VPs. Grima helps a tad, but him alone escaping off the board isn't worth anything until a friend joins him. Saruman could also just have a REALLY bad game dealing with Resistant to Magic. I like him for making Azog's every action that much riskier and (hopefully) dismounting him relatively early to slow him down, but dice are fickle and those 190pts can just blow up in my face. Haven't actually stress-tested this against Pits, so all of this is theorycraft until it actually accomplishes something! Curious what y'all might think.

Hi! I have an upcoming 800p tournament, and I want to bring Harad/Far harad. I'm leaning towards a poison-heavy list with the Betrayer. Suladan the Serpent Lord: Armoured horse 7x Haradrim Warrior: Bow 6x Serpent Guard 2x Serpent Rider 2x Haradrim Warrior: Bow, Spear 1x Watcher of Karna: Twin Blades The Betrayer: Fell Beast 7x Haradrim Warrior: Bow 5x Serpent Guard 1x Serpent Rider 1x Haradrim Warrior: Banner, Bow, Spear 1x Watcher of Karna: Twin Blades Mahud King: War camel, Shield, War spear 3x Mahud Raider: Blowpipe, War Spear 4x Mahud Warrior: Blowpipe 4x Mahud Warrior: Blowpipe, Spear Here are my thoughts/concerns: I only have 7 might. I could do something like drop the Betrayer to a horse and remove some troops for a Haradrim King or a Taskmaster. I feel like having the option for hurls and such is quite valuable though, so I'm hesitant drop the Fell beast. I'm not totally sold on the second banner. With Suladan being both my leader and a banner he can be worth quite a few points, and since he is quite squishy having a second banner gives me some insurance for banner VPs. On the other hand, a 6" banner is quite sufficient a lot of the time, and the points from the banner can get me more blowpipes. I'm also considering dropping the betrayer and doing a no poison list with Sully, Raza, a King, a Mahud king, and a bunch of merchant guard backed by guys with bow/spear, as well as a few half trolls backed by guys with blowpipes/spears. That gets me more models, more might and harder hitting melee troops at the cost of worse shooting and no magic/monster shenanigans. Appreciate your thoughts!

Heel netjes, jongens!! I also recently started playing some tournaments in the Dutch scene and the people are great :)

Hey y'all! I've been on a big "how to cram Helmingas into everything" binge recently, and have cooked up a 700 point Minas Tirith - Rohan alliance to accomplish this. It's essentially a pretty standard "Bannermir - Hurin - Madril" list, except Hurin is replaced by Grimbold with a warband of Helmingas. Warband 1: Boromir with Banner, Horse and shield 215 4x Guard of the Fountain court w/shield 44p 4x Rangers w/ bow and spear 36p 6x Warriors of MT with shield 48p 1 Knight of Minas tirith w/shield 14p Warband 2: Madril 55p 4x Guard of the Fountain court w/shield 44p 4x Rangers w/ bow and spear 36p 4x Warriors of MT with shield 48p Warband 3: Grimbold of Grimslade 60p 10 Helmingas w/ axes, thrown and shield 100p 2 Rohan Outriders 16p 700p, 42 models, 10 bows, 12M Grimbold obviously isn't nearly as strong as Hurin, but does bring S4-5 warriors with throwing weapons to bring some punch to the MT warrior line.

Great stream! Was indeed an amazing game against Rainier great to see it reviewed! Cheers

Loving the pod! If you guys get the chance could you give me a list review please! 🤞 Defenders of Helm's Deep 800 points | 40 models | 12 bows Theoden, King of Rohan Heavy armour, Shield 4x Galadhrim Warrior Elf Bow, Spear 5x Rohan Royal Guard Throwing spears 5x Warrior of Rohan Throwing spears, Shield Aragorn - Strider Armour Haleth, Son of Hama 5x Warrior of Rohan Throwing spears, Shield 5x Rohan Royal Guard Throwing spears 1x Rohan Royal Guard Banner Legolas Greenleaf Elven Cloak, Armour 6x Galadhrim Warrior Elf Bow, Spear 2x Rohan Royal Guard Throwing spears 3x Warrior of Rohan Shield Thanks heaps! The plan is to shoot heaps and run around kiting with aragorn warband throwing a bunch of spears and then use the F5 royal spam after that Thanks again

Are you guys planning on doing more of these types of episodes? It would be great if you guys could do this on tabletopsimulator (or something similar). That way it could be a real batrep!

On the list review: Goroth's stick is that he can have Orcs near him taking his wounds . . . why not downgrade a few Morannons to Orc Warriors/Trackers so you can have less expensive models take the hits? Or maybe there's a place for a wraith/Gorbag replacing Goroth/Kardush and then doing the Black Numenorean thing Evan was talking about?